[Closed] the demise of decent customers (lbs content)

Thanks for correcting my your -> you're. Are you always such a pedant, Simon?

You're trying to remove my profit, I don't want your business. I have lots of other people who are willing to pay a fair price for a fair service and your contribution to my holiday villa is 0.000001%, so stop wasting my time and go to the internet, fit it yourself and don't come to me with a warranty claim

Then just don't take the order in the first place, rather than dicking me around. That would be just fine.

For what it's worth, 90% of my purchases go through my LBS at way more than CRC pricing. I've shopped their (that one's especially for you to correct) for 20 years and will continue to do so.

But how long will it be before your target market realise they can buy elsewhere cheaper !!!

But not fit or maintain it, look at the "how can I fit a headset?", "do I need to face...?", "How do Brand X shoes size up?" threads.

But the demise is from our elevated point of view and not necessarily the view from the bike shop, the punter or the accountant.

I've spent the last hour defending myself which I think is a clear example of the type of high maintenance customer the OP is talking about, it's an inefficient use of time. I'm off for a ride. Have fun. 😉

Then just don't take the order in the first place, rather than dicking me around. That would be just fine.

You've made a good few points but have spent an hour defending (at least with me) a stupid comment, rather than just admit it was a daft thing to say. You remind me of my wife 😉

Enjoy your ride.

All my bikes have come from LBS's and I'd never try something on in an LBS and buy on-line but I'd say 90% of the stuff I buy is on-line. It's not so much cost it's the convenience and the choice (CRC and Wiggle are a lot less hassle to get to than any of the LBS in my area) and I'm invariably disappointed when I do go to an LBS to have a browse for something, there will usually be one model in stock in my size if I'm lucky so I either have to get them to order in other stuff for me to try (with the hassle of having to return days later) or just go online and take a risk.
I can understand the reasons but I also hate the trend of LBSs just supply one make of everything (e.g. all the clothing will be Altura or all the shoes will be Mavic), whilst it does allow them to have more variety within that range it's so limiting, especially where stuff like tyres are concerned.

Last one, I've got work to do too:

don simon - Member

Then just don't take the order in the first place, rather than dicking me around. That would be just fine.

But I'm not dicking around, am I? I've told you several times from the offset that I don't want your business,

What are you on about? Seriously? You said you would TAKE the order but hold on to it for a few days. If you don't want my business, don't take the order. I promise I would not have begged you to take it.

Jesus.

You haven't said why it's stupid? I am offering the same price and service as the internet, this is what you want after all. If you want it in your hand now you have to pay a premium, much like the internet shops are now offering.
Regular FREE delivery in 3-5 days.
24 hour despatch you pay extra.

😆 😆 😆

EDIT: I would have told you the conditions before you make a decision. 🙄 the customer is king, right?

Only on the internet could we have people so furiously debating a hypothetical sale ... 🙂

I propose half time orange squash and a spell in my back garden making ramps.

I haven't needed to Simon: you've done that yourself.

Go on, get out on the bike and clear the head.

Only on the internet could we have people so furiously debating a hypothetical sale ...

Debating is good fun until the insults start. 😆

24 hour despatch you pay extra.

🙄

There are 3 things that underpin the LBS.
Customer Service
Customer Service
Customer Service

Two god things about the lbs!

Wander in with broken xxxx light just on turn or warranty, no receipt. But did buy from there. Hi erm, it's broken, can you sort it? Yeah no worries will send it off tomorrow!
Is there any chance I can borrow a demo light to keep me going? Sure, here you go!
Total charge - £2!

And they don't leave stuff at random places with difficult opening hours that I have to go collect! They are exactly where they were last week!

A lot of what has been said above, on both sides of the argument, is pretty spot on.

DS's point about service matching is quite amusing. I don't know if he is 100% serious, but what I understand from his controversial stance is that some people demand good service from a retailer while not wanting to pay for it. There aren't many things in life that come for free, though that isn't an excuse for shop staff to be rude to the people who walk through their door.

Something that may not be too widely known, and that is key to this debate, is that the on-line prices for the parts and brands that keen participants of our pass time like to have are virtually identical to the trade price that independent bike shops have to pay. It isn't uncommon for on-line shops to be selling parts at below trade prices.

Apologies if these point have already been raised - I didn't have time to read beyond the second page.

You've got it in one, I've made a couple of small changes, but essentially you're correct.
You're trying to remove my profit, I don't want your business. I have lots of other people who are willing to pay a fair price for a fair service and your contribution to my holiday villa is 0.000001%, so stop wasting my time and go to the internet, fit it yourself and don't come to me with a warranty claim.
You are one small customer, there are lots of businesses surviving very well without your customer, even though you think it, you are not a cash cow. Sorry.

Thats exactly the problem I've had with LBSs in the past, the take it or leave it attitude of staff who are trying to charge me more than elsewhere, explain to me exactly why I shouldn't just leave it and go elsewhere? I may be one small customer, but if you deliberatly offered worse service, I wouldn't come back next time, and I'd be sure to tell anyone who asked. Bad reviews spread faster than good ones, unfortunately. Surely a better answer to..

Me: Can you order me something for £xx

Would be..

You: No, thats too cheap for me, I can do it for £xx and it's in stock now/I'll give you a discount next time/I'll fit it/I'll support that race you're organizing/I give free cake.

That way, if I decide price is more important, I walk away thinking at least you tried, and were honest with me, or I pay the extra and you get my business, and future business.

Claiming to give worse service to customers in a thread complaining about customers not using their LBS is indeed stupid.

TandemJeremy - Member

I am lucky I guess but we have a number of good bike shops in Edinburgh - the bike chain is the one I suse the most.

Prices for service items pads cables chainrings are near as dammit the sameaas the itnernet price and in stock, big high ends parts they find it hard to compete.

Helpfull and friendly but charge FAIR amount for the workshops - which I don't mind as you get what yo pay for.

The stock and skill of a retailer, is where the price differential is

..and where so many fall down. They try to cover too many areas - road, MTB, commuter, kids, etc - in too little space because they think if they exclude any they'll be missing out on custom. They try to stock several brands too to cover all bases. The place gets filled up with bikes and the other things people would want to buy, especially to look at / try on first gets marginalised to the corner. And while a member of staff might be an expert in one area of cycling, they may have very sketchy knowledge in others.

Have had way too many times buying things like shoes where there'll be half a dozen suitable models, but only stock in my size of one of them (if I'm lucky). And several times in less experienced days (and before there were Shimano technical docs online) I'd walk out with a part I was assured was right for what I needed, only to be back the next day because it wasn't. I was also subjected to the most inept folding demonstration of a Brompton by a sales guy who had to get someone from the workshop out to help him.

The good shops I've known focussed on one niche and a couple of brands and did well - as they've moved into bigger premises they've been able to extend their ranges and keep skill and quality levels high. It's not just buying advice - a mechanic who's top-notch at preparing MTBs and has a decade of experience doing that may not be so good when you want your bar tape redone.

I can see why the likes of Specialized feel the urge to set up their own shops and get control over the levels of quality, knowledge and stock. Too many of their dealers just do a really poor job of selling their brand.

Seems to me that Don Simon can't really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

But to deliberately offer poor service? That's just stoooopid. I know you'll want an explanation as to why. Well I'll try, firstly, you'd lose me as a customer. I know, you don't care you never wanted me in the first place. Though, you will need to explain to me how you know what my future needs will be. Secondly, I will tell everyone what a dick you are. If you think that doesn't matter, why don't you tell us which shop you run and where it is? Thirdly, you give other LBSs a bad reputation cos folks think that small operators have no guidelines for their actions.

If there is a significant discount online, some folks, want to try to support their local shops, but it is hard to justify spending and extra £XX pounds on what may be a luxury anyway, so being public spirited they give the bike shop the opportunity for the sale. If that is no good to the shop, then fine.

The 'make a customer wait' comment by Don Simon may well be the single most stupid thing I've ever heard a retailer say (assuming (s)he's a retailer)...

+1. I just don't get this either.

The whole thrust of Don Simon's argument (imo) is that people should, where possible, shop in their lbs even if it costs a few quid more. Fair nuff so far whether you agree or disagree.

So surely he should be encouraging people to do this? Tempting them away from the cheap online retailers with something else - better/quicker service maybe? Better or more niche stock selection perhaps?

But how in the name of God is "making the customer wait" going to bring in more trade or convince them that lbs is better than online? This is only going to reinforce the opinion that online is a)cheaper; b)better stock selection and c)faster and more convenient (which is DS point I think) and d)has none of the resentful huge ****ing chip on shoulder attitude that is clearly expressed here! Is this some attempt to "teach the ill-educated customer a lesson"? Surely this is guaranteed to send customers packing and online, or at least to ANOther lbs?

I just don't get it. Very odd 😕

more good things about lbs'

broke mech hanger on the camino de santiago last month. terminal, to all intents and purposes (well i supose you *could* ride 600km with the mech held on with cable ties and a clothes peg). walked into a bike shop on saturday afternoon, just as they were pulling the shutters down for the weekend. they didn't have a hanger but hired me a bike to finish the camino on, and stayed well past closing time swapping all my racks and stuff onto it.

another broken hanger, potentially ride-ending. lbs didn't have one, but again stayed past closing taking hangers from stock bikes trying to get me a similar one.

and is on-line any cheaper? pattern mech hangers for my bike are 15€ from the states, or 15€ genuine from the manufacturer, or 15€ from the lbs....

edit: in spain btw. couldn't imagine the staff at condor doing the same but you never know...

Poly - i am assuming you were the chap in on Saturday with family. I thought i had made the point clearly that the bike was indeed too big for your partner, Hence why we moved on to the other models available in our ranges that may have been more suitable. I did point out that it was too long and too high and not suitable - if this was not clear then i apologise.

Mark

Have not trawled through all of the previous posts but another vote for the LBS here.

We're lucky enough to have some fantastic one's here in Bath.

The best offer so much more than bikes and bits and that is the reason I support all of them: advice, support, a place to chat, tips on local clubs and other riding groups (many from the shop), events (races and family etc), they support local racers, teams even, keep our cycling library, have nice coffee.. 😀

http://www.cadencebikeshop.com/
http://www.johnsbikes.co.uk/
http://www.avonvalleycyclery.co.uk/

Elfin's attitude us exactly why people in this country treat each other like shit, what a shame. Like already said I hope a bigger dog never crosses your path elfin.

Heh! Really? Ok then.

Sooo..... you pay your staff a decent wage, to reflect their skill, knowledge and enthusiasm for the products they're selling, right? You always only sell the customer what they ask for, never try to 'sell up'? Ensure that your services and prices are the best and most competitive around?

Oh, and the products you sell aren't made using cheap labour in countries with dubious human rights records, and using environmentally damaging processes? I take it you simply take the bare minimum to live on, and donate all the rest of your profits to charity?

Right, ok....

My point is, that it's a [i]market[/i]. As a customer, it's my choice to exploit that market, to get the best deal. As a bike shop owner will, surely. Do you go to the suppliers who charge more, but have a nicer telephone manner? No, you go to the ones that give you the best deal.

I don't discriminate between bike shops and other shops. In fact, I actually get better customer service in other shops, truth be told. Bike shops tend to be staffed mainly by bored young lads filling in time until they get something better, or grumpy old gits who know far better than you. Almost all women I know that cycle say they have been patronised by bike shop staff, at some time or another. In fact, women are seen almost as an inconvenience in some bike shops.

Sorry for not jumping on the sycophantic 'Love your LBS' bandwagon here, and sorry if my honesty upsets folk, but as I've said, I'll look out for the best bargains and use the resources available to me to get the best deal I can. Regardless of which shop I try something on, and where I then buy it from, the suppliers still get their money.

It's just that I'll be polite about it. As, I suspect, many others on here who do the same thing will be...

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

and that's just what it is -- a perfectly sensible point, i doubt he'd actually do it. And even if he presented me with a choice of paying more OR waiting, i'd be happy.

F-in hate my lbs though. Four weeks and 130 euro to make a brake hose a bit longer?! Never again. And that's just one instance of a few. I'm an idiot for not catching on sooner. They have a great reputation, undeserved. Now i tell anyone i meet, in my broken italian- 'padre vanes e un uomo di merda'

All this talk of LBS vs Online made me realise I very often use the third option, the one that nobody can compete with - Other riders!

In my garage I've got a drawer full of drivetrain parts, mostly brand new, that I've picked up for peanuts. Full cranksets, BBs, Chainrings, a cassette, a couple of rear mechs. Scattered around I have various other parts that have 'come my way' and my eBay and STW classifides history is dotted with things I've made profit on - Bought silly cheap or given, serviced, and sold on for at least double the money. That's how I got some Lyriks for £30.... I've been given decent stuff and bought other bits (wheels mainly) for simply stupid prices becasue beople can't be bothered with the simplest of fixes. I'm currently using 2 pairs of wheels mostly obtained like this, and grafted together with a bit of ingenuity. And I'm takling Hope and DT Swiss hubs, not crap. Including the new parts, I've paid around £120 for both sets. I could bang just one pair on the classifides and get £150 any day of the week 🙂

How can I do this? Becasue people can't be bothered to repair, or just too stuck up to use Deore! Simples... 🙂

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

but he actually goes out of his way to give poorer service.

Elfinsafety,i buy products based on the brand perception/quality before i think about margin....(not a very good business model but i like stuff that sells itself)

its true that i like earning money and am driven by selling stuff but the business also employs and pays for people to live,we support loads(too many) charities we help local riders/schools and go to the odd race as race support...im also on the commitee for building local trails...ive never just seen the shop as a way of making myself rich(cos it wont)

how do you sleep at night knowing that youve got a bike thats made up of unethical products/leather shoes etc?? it did make me chuckle...

Elfin's attitude us exactly why people in this country treat each other like shit, what a shame. Like already said I hope a bigger dog never crosses your path elfin.

If shops rely for their success on guilt-tripping their customers into buying stuff at inflated prices then their demise is assured. I cannot for the life of me make out the relevance of the dog reference, unless it's a telepathic dog that can determine his intentions and bite him for being bad ?

Well some people on here should get their head out of their asses. And possibly (can I start a sentence with and btw?) spend more time in a bike shop.

Problem is now people expect everything for anything. I am in excellent terms with my LBS. They have become friends with the time. In no particular order here is a few things I get from them:
- use of the workshop when free, with the help from the mechanics giving me useful tips to make me go faster.
- food, mind you it's fair as we all tend to meet at the LBS for lunch so different round everyday.
- free coffee (although I buy the sugar as I like mine with half a sugar cube)
- invaluable service and advices (such as warranties, free fitting when i can't be bothered to do it myself, numerous test rides)
- free labour and sometimes free stuff (samples, test goods etc etc)
- the pleasure to pop in just for a chat (useful when a 4 year old bugger wakes up very grumpy from the car and just won't walk for at least 20 minutes) whether I am alone or with my girlfriend
- motorcycle part/mechanical advice/road book, mainly because sometimes you have more motorcycles parked outside than bike inside 😉 (and none of this modern plastic garbadges)
- free lending of goods when needed (the GF want to try a super sprint tri. LBS owner has spontaneously offered to lend is very high end carbon road bike) . Sometimes I pop in for a chat and some customers go for a ride. I borrow one of the owner bike and the other kit and of I go.
- free use of the shower after the ride
And much more.
Does it cost me more money than buying online yes maybe a fair amount. Do I care no. Why
Well first I am not going to carry the money with me in the hole. Second because I actually find it to be excellent value for money when I regard the services I get.

Now I am wondering how CRC and wiggle are going to match that?

I'd buy more from my lbs if they were quicker better at maintaing their stock, 'we can order it on thursday and it should be in within 2 weeks" doesn't cut it when i can get it next day from crc for example.

Also I HATE some of the bull you get in the sales patter, just tell me facts don't make stuff up!

And with regard to the idea of a market, yes you are right it is a market. But you need to shop with a thought about the consequences. There maybe an analogy with bookshops. Where most independent bookshops used to stock a large number of mainstream titles, at RRP, which allowed them the margin to also stock more alternative titles. Places like Borders and even more so Tesco then focus only on the mainstream titles, stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap, make smaller margins each but make up for it in volume. So the LBS (local book shop) no longer has the custom which makes up the bulk of their sales and they close. And now you can only buy books which have been approved by Richard and Judy or Oprah Winfrey. The same will happen with bike shops if we are not careful. We'll be left with Evanses and Wiggles etc. Our local shops will disappear and the money we spend will leave the local area, perhaps even the country.

juan - Member

Well some people on here should get their head out of their asses. And possibly (can I start a sentence with and btw?) spend more time in a bike shop.

Problem is now people expect everything for anything. I am in excellent terms with my LBS. They have become friends with the time. In no particular order here is a few things I get from them:

I think that's the point Juan. My LBS offers nothing more than a place I can go if I break something today and want to ride tomorrow; and then, only if I buy the part and fix it myself as they have 2-3 week waiting times for small jobs. That's their call and I appreciate they're going where the money is, but I'm sure I've spent more on bike parts in the last 2 years (and am less demanding) than the average punter buying a cheap bike for their kids.

But life is good like that. If you don't get what you need from somewhere, you go where you do get it. My LBS will still get occasional business from me for convenience sake but I'll go further afield or online for bigger purchases. They're happy because they're spending time with people that will buy a full bike rather than some parts and they'll get more workshop revenue from people who don't know how to do simple fixes. Everyone wins. Hopefully.

its true that i like earning money and am driven by selling stuff but the business also employs and pays for people to live,we support loads(too many) charities we help local riders/schools and go to the odd race as race support...im also on the commitee for building local trails...ive never just seen the shop as a way of making myself rich(cos it wont)

Good on you. I give a fair chunk of my time to helping causes I believe in. As do many people.

how do you sleep at night knowing that youve got a bike thats made up of unethical products/leather shoes etc?? it did make me chuckle...

The same way you do, I'd imagine. Glad I've amused you on this glorious Monday Morning.

I accept my comments may seem callous, but that's Capitalism for yer, eh? It's about gaining through exploitation, of some form or another.

I'm not talking about a price difference of a couple of quid; I'm talking about when it's £10, £20 or more. That sort of thing. Like if the RRP on a jacket is £80, but someone online is selling it for £60. Now, if I buy it online, don't like it and have to return/exchange it, it'll cost me to return it. I'll take this into consideration. But I'd like to try it on. So, the bike shop would be a good cheeky option. I'm only doing what millions of others probably do; I'm just admitting to it.

Now, if the LBS offers me exceptional service, I might think 'hmm, I'll buy it from these guys as they've been so helpful and nice'. Sadly, this is seldom the case, in my experience.

And then there's the thing where shops close to each other tend not to stock the same brands. So, I'd go to both to try the different options. Is it then out of order of me to only buy from the one shop? Because there's no difference really, is there? I'd still be trying something on, and then not buying it.

Same with bikes; I'll go and at least sit on a few, if I want to buy one. Probbly go to a few shops, see what's available. I'll still be taking up the staff's time, won't I?

Got any bib shorts in atm? 😉

My favourite LBS went bust so I went the mail order and learn my own build etc route after that.

I've had some appalling experiences and its seems a common theme- shop staff suggesting parts are worn/need replacing when they do not. Even a shop owner did this to me and since then I've not been back to his place nor will I.

Possibly in some places the shop manager has to drive more sales so suggests more replacements etc etc? Local Evans offers good customer service (always has) but I really am scratching my head to think of a bikeshop within Manchester that I trust etc.

Then again, bike shops are businesses. They aren't centre of the community or a place to socially gather. Anywhere that has a till at its heart is a business at the end of the day so no one should romantise them.

Anywhere that has a till at its heart is a business at the end of the day so no one should romantise them.

Nice. I like that. Quite profound for a Monday morning, Hora! 🙂

Mark,

Its interesting that you think you can identify who I am from the limited detail I provided; that suggests it is not a common occurance - although perhaps also there was a little embarrassment at trying to flog a 44cm frame to someone who is only 5'3".

I don't know if you are the shop owner/manager but I'd suggest you look at how you train all your staff so that the message/training are consistent across the company. If you are going to win against cheaper internet sales you need to ensure that everyone in the shop is giving quality advice and that the importance of fit and setup is never forgotten because there is a "bargain" sitting on your shelf.

I certainly didn't get the impression that if my credit card had come out that you (and your colleage in particular) would have been at all reluctant to take it. The aim of my response wasn't to specifically slate The Bike Chain however, it was more to point out that service standards are rarely consistently high across all the staff in a shop all of the time.

Elfin, i agree with you to a point, cos im a customer too. What i don't think is fair is using the LBS to try stuff before you buy, its just not cricket as they say.

TBH its difficult to find a decent LBS - I do have one (as in teh last few years they have stepped up their CS) and I am lucky but I don't have a big rapor with them as I don't go in very often. I do buy most of my stuff online and do ALL my own maintenance so I don't find the need but I do recommend it to someone who doesn't. I won't go in to buy something that is 20% more expensive just as I wouldn't with anything else i.e. electronic items online vs shop prices etc. They are not a charity so I don't treat them as such - cuts both ways. Thats just the way it is 🙂

What i don't think is fair is using the LBS to try stuff before you buy, its just not cricket as they say.

+1 - its not illegal but out of order in my book 🙂

Then again, bike shops are businesses. They aren't centre of the community or a place to socially gather.

These things are far from mutually exclusive. TBC or Bike Treks shop rides for example.

I live in New Mills, High Peak

A couple of lbs around here are really good and friendly

One shop that isn't too far away is useless, despite a lot of stw people raving about it

I always try and get my stuff from an lbs if I can, despite being out of work and properly skint

I did however try almost all my lbs for a rear hanger, and none of them stocked it, and one shop even told me to go and buy it online elsewhere

What i don't think is fair is using the LBS to try stuff before you buy, its just not cricket as they say.

Well, it's not Cricket; it's Capitalism. It's an economic system based on exploitation! A bike shop exploits people by charging a premium on the prices they've paid, it's just that as customers we accept that this form of exploitation is reasonable.

I admit I feel a bit guilty for trying stuff with no intention of buying it from the shop, but only for a moment. And as I've said, it's no different effectively to trying stuff on in different shops, then only buying from one.

Recently I needed to get the right size for a replacement helmet that I was about to order. How could I determine the right size without trying one on? And where could I do so? The only option was a bike shop. I did at least tell the bloke serving me, what I was doing, and apologised, but he was fine about it. As agents for that particular brand, they were doing their suppliers a little favour. Personally, I think maybe there should be an option to get the replacement from your LBS, surely woon't cost the supplier any extra. I dunno.

Where I work (not a bike shop):

[*]Customers will ask for unjustifiable discounts
Expect you to bend over backwards to help them
They'll expect you to work at risk for a few weeks
They'll want everything done yesterday[/*]

Why should a bike shop be any different? It's just a business surely?

My experience of bike shops is that they rarely have the components I want in stock, so there I might as well save myself 20 quid by getting it online. When I do need something in a hurry, I'll pay the extra for the convenience of getting from the shop (e.g. a gear cable).

The only exception to the above is when I buy a new bike, if I try a bike and have seen good service, then i'll buy it from that shop. However if I get rubbish service (e.g. having to pay to demo a bike - that really grates) then I'll probably go elsewhere, even if I like the bike.

Good example of this, is Moutaintrax in Wokingham, they bent over backwards to help me when picking a new bike (and afterwards for that matter - dropping different weight spring off to my house, despite it being 10 miles out of their way, so I could have a well set up bike for my holiday). As a result of that I'll probably end up getting a new bike from them next year, and I've pointed several mates in their direction as well. Conversely I've experienced a few less than stellar bike shops, who I won't spend any money with and will actively sl4g off to whomever will listen... I guess what i'm saying is that I expect good customer service even if i'm not a regular customer, and if I don't get it i'll go elsewhere...

These things are far from mutually exclusive.

I concur, i found highly ironic that people are ok to pay for skill courses (or for a matter have very limited bike handling skills) but not to support a communitarian (spelling?) bike shop which (adv?) could provide tips on the riding.

CharlieMungus - Member

And with regard to the idea of a market, yes you are right it is a market. But you need to shop with a thought about the consequences. There maybe an analogy with bookshops. Where most independent bookshops used to stock a large number of mainstream titles, at RRP, which allowed them the margin to also stock more alternative titles. Places like Borders and even more so Tesco then focus only on the mainstream titles, stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap, make smaller margins each but make up for it in volume. So the LBS (local book shop) no longer has the custom which makes up the bulk of their sales and they close. And now you can only buy books which have been approved by Richard and Judy or Oprah Winfrey. The same will happen with bike shops if we are not careful. We'll be left with Evanses and Wiggles etc. Our local shops will disappear and the money we spend will leave the local area, perhaps even the country.

Charlie, you do know that Borders went bust don't you? Just it kind of ruins your argument - especially when there are still some good local book shops (generally in smaller towns). The comparison is not very good anyway since I've never needed to take my book in to be repaired. There actually seem to be an increasing number of LBS (here anyway) as Cycling increases in popularity - and they seem to be focussing on real bikes not the cheap childrens bikes that many shops relied on for revenue when I was a kid.

poly - could you help me buy emailing me on mdownie@thebikechain.co.uk so i can try and resolve the matter for you. As a small shop and as the owner it pains me to think we didn't do something properly for you. If you are the chap from saturday then i am confused as i think i did my damnest to point out it was the wrong bike - if this was another incident then we need to address that promptly. Your feedback will be very useful. We always need to improve and your 1 out of 100 experience will help this.

We aim to give the right retail service and provide a fairly competitive web experience as well (something that is taking off for us in a good way with the products that we can run a business on) we do this on products that we can actually make a margin on and not run around like busy fools...

I have builders in and am working on a tethered phone on my laptop (power off in the house) so being on the web is tricky - my phone does email and uses less batts.

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

The trouble is so many of us get Crap service at an LBS price.

I mostly buy online because of crap service from bike shops. I too have had experience of "the book" and also "bike shop time" in which "Tuesday" doesn't mean next Tuesday, it means any Tuesday in the future and probably some months into the future because my order will be in "the book" which only yields up its secrets according to some occult timetable, if ever.

I mostly fix my own bikes too because of crap service from bike shops. Shame, I would love to have a good relationship with a lbs, I spend a lot of money on bikes and cycling ephemera.

I saw some of the salaries offered for bike shop managers. Now considering they'll be selling kit into the thousands paying a manager peanuts is ridiculous. I remember speaking to one ex-Manager who told me about the hours he was expected to work for 25k a year. **** that.

I doubt bikeshop staff get much more than the basic/minimum salary either.

Not much incentive yet they are expected to show 'love for their hobbie' (with one day off in the week to ride.

poly - could you help me buy emailing me on mdownie@thebikechain.co.uk so i can try and resolve the matter for you.

Thanks for showing the interest in sorting this out - I'll email you later today. This is not the place for a "discussion" like this anyway and I'm not trying to disuade anyone from using The Bike Chain.

Charlie, you do know that Borders went bust don't you?

No, it didn't. They closed up in the UK. But that further supports my argument. That the come in, undercut the LBS so that many have to close. Then when they stop being as profitable as they need to be, the close up and move out. Meanwhile all the LBS and their stock have gone and strtup costs are high

Just it kind of ruins your argument

- especially when there are still some good local book shops (generally in smaller towns).

Yeah, they would only be local if you live in that smaller town. And how many people live in a 'smaller town'? Go on, the clue is in the question!
...
That's right! that's what makes it small.

The comparison is not very good anyway since I've never needed to take my book in to be repaired.

There actually seem to be an increasing number of LBS (here anyway)

as Cycling increases in popularity

- and they seem to be focussing on real bikes not the cheap childrens bikes that many shops relied on for revenue when I was a kid.

That's good

Apologies, this might take a while but just got back from a quick blast.

LAT - Member

A lot of what has been said above, on both sides of the argument, is pretty spot on.

DS's point about service matching is quite amusing. I don't know if he is 100% serious, but what I understand from his controversial stance is that some people demand good service from a retailer while not wanting to pay for it. There aren't many things in life that come for free, though that isn't an excuse for shop staff to be rude to the people who walk through their door.

Something that may not be too widely known, and that is key to this debate, is that the on-line prices for the parts and brands that keen participants of our pass time like to have are virtually identical to the trade price that independent bike shops have to pay. It isn't uncommon for on-line shops to be selling parts at below trade prices.

Apologies if these point have already been raised - I didn't have time to read beyond the second page.

Thats exactly the problem I've had with LBSs in the past, the take it or leave it attitude of staff who are trying to charge me more than elsewhere, explain to me exactly why I shouldn't just leave it and go elsewhere?

Claiming to give worse service to customers

Show me where I said I'd offer worse service, you do understand the concept of "service match" don't you?

Seems to me that Don Simon can't really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

 

Apologies, this might take a while but just got back from a quick blast.

LAT - Member

A lot of what has been said above, on both sides of the argument, is pretty spot on.

DS's point about service matching is quite amusing. I don't know if he is 100% serious, but what I understand from his controversial stance is that some people demand good service from a retailer while not wanting to pay for it. There aren't many things in life that come for free, though that isn't an excuse for shop staff to be rude to the people who walk through their door.

Something that may not be too widely known, and that is key to this debate, is that the on-line prices for the parts and brands that keen participants of our pass time like to have are virtually identical to the trade price that independent bike shops have to pay. It isn't uncommon for on-line shops to be selling parts at below trade prices.

Apologies if these point have already been raised - I didn't have time to read beyond the second page.

Thats exactly the problem I've had with LBSs in the past, the take it or leave it attitude of staff who are trying to charge me more than elsewhere, explain to me exactly why I shouldn't just leave it and go elsewhere?

Claiming to give worse service to customers

CharlieMungus - Member

but he actually goes out of his way to give poorer service.

Seems to me that Don Simon can't really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

The whole thrust of Don Simon's argument (imo) is that people should, where possible, shop in their lbs even if it costs a few quid more. Fair nuff so far whether you agree or disagree.

No, the thrust of my argument is to pay a fair price for a fair service.

But how in the name of God is "making the customer wait" going to bring in more trade or convince them that lbs is better than online?

theyEye - Member

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

Not that difficult really, was it? 😆 😆

And I didn't have to explain the basic concept of supply and demand. 😉

poly - could you help me buy emailing me on mdownie@thebikechain.co.uk so i can try and resolve the matter for you.

THIS is what lbs SHOULD be doing. THIS is customer service. THIS is a desire to help and resolve a problem/misunderstanding. THIS is what is going to keep lbs alive and tempt me to buy from them not online. NOT Don Simon's "I'll delay your delivery".

I live about 400m from a bigger and better known bike shop in Edinburgh who frankly have pretty average stock and pretty average prices (although staff always helpful to be fair) but I've never been across town to Bike Chain. I will be from now on.

CharlieMungus - Member
but he actually goes out of his way to give poorer service.
Show me where I said I'd offer worse service, you do understand the concept of "service match" don't you?

I meant poorer in comparison to your normal service. The stuff arrives and you hold on to it for a couple of days. For no good reason, other than that they asked for a discount. That's going out of your way and the service is poorer than normal.

Seems to me that Don Simon can't really own a shop. He may work in one, where dicking a customer around makes no real difference to him.

I have a very close relationship with my customers and I do not dick them around, but equally I won't be dicked around by a customer. I put a bit of my sales history above.

A phrase like "I do not dick them around", should not have to be qualified with a 'but'. Besides, having someone's stuff and not telling them it has arrived, or surely on occasion lying* to them when it has, is dicking them around.

*If someone gets the 'long stand' treatment and happens to enquire, on the off chance it may have arrived, what do you tell them?

I have no doubt you sales history is great. But if you are so sure that you are being fair to your customers and have no case to answer, why don't you tell us what your shop is called and where you are.

was out riding nr Cardiff with on of my best mates this past weekend..

we were talking about LBS vs online...

think the issues are two fold:

1. The rise of the internet, in the early 90's I bought all my bike stuff from Dave Mellor cycles... he sold all I needed and instead of getting cash for saturday boy work, he just took money off my tab.

2. There are so many more 'specialisms' in cycling now... back in the day your choices were limited.. road bike or mtb... suspension forks - 3 brands and only one fork each in each of their 'ranges'

now there are so many different types of cycling that doubt any shop could afford to keep stuff to suit all needs.. thus big online places with lower overheads can stack stuffed to the rafters in a big crinkly tin shed and cater for all..

I get 90% of my stuff from online places, 5% from evans / cycle surgery but only with price match and 5% from local lbs - but then for things like cables or cleaning spray...

would like to buy more from LBS they are a nice shop and helpful, but often shut when I'm near it as still at work (not their fault) and on line ordering is quick and convenient.

Just the way of the world I suppose.

But how in the name of God is "making the customer wait" going to bring in more trade or convince them that lbs is better than online?

How in the name of god is giving my stuff away a good business plan?

Who asked you to give it away? Just a bit of respect and less attitude.

I don't really care about the price of 99% of my bike purchases to be honest - what's a fiver here or there when you're getting the piece of gear you want and getting it with a smile and a friendly attitude? Example - I drove 50 mile round trip yesterday to drop off my Lynskey for a service. I live in the centre of Edinburgh so have maybe a dozen bike shops within spitting distance yet I took it somewhere that is not the cheapest and I have to go back to get it. I could've saved myself £20 in diesel but would rather get good service. Holding kit back on your "service match" - crap service.

don simon - Member

Show me where I said I'd offer worse service, you do understand the concept of "service match" don't you?

So does that mean you'll deliver it to my door as well then? Quite often the next day... and with free postage?

In that case, you should be onto a winner as it seems to work for Wiggle and CRC...

;o)

So does that mean you'll deliver it to my door as well then? Quite often the next day... and with free postage?

In that case, you should be onto a winner as it seems to work for Wiggle and CRC...

😀

😳 sorry for the double post 😳 cold, fat fingers!

Stoatsbrother - Member

Don simon makes an fair point.

Lbs service at an lbs price
internet service at an internet price

The trouble is so many of us get Crap service at an LBS price.

But that is a different arguement and if a shop gives you crap service you are quite right to walk away. Don't forget that we, as a group, are also quite a bit more demanding than the average Joe because we generally know exactly what we want and won't be fobbed off with something else.

There are also a few people here who have more knowledge/experience than the most accomplished mechanic, which might not be well received. 😉

But Charlie, you don't know, as the customer that it's worse. I was responding to the chappy earlier, let me put it into context.

I have a product X for price Y
Customer L comes in and asks for product X saying they can get it from Internet shop A for price Y-20% and they are in no rush.
a) buy it from the internet (and don't waste my time)
b) pay price Y and walk away with the product now
c) I hold product X and order one for you, which fits into your timeframe, and let you pay price y-20% (provided I still make profit). Because by selling the product I have on the shelf I am removing the possibility of selling at full retail to the next guy who walks through the door and I win nothing.
You are looking for product X at price Y-20% and have time to wait- you're happy in that you've given a little bit of business to the lbs and satisfied your conscience.
I'm happy because I've sold extra product.
And the second customer is happy because he needed the part last minute before going on holiday and the internet couldn't deliver in time.
I think everyone is getting exactly what they want, no?
Not and everyday occurance.

I don't work in a shop.

"Support your LBS" is firmly in the same territory as "act fair in the spirit of Ebay"

Both are crock.

To the title:

the demise of decent customers

Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly.

[i]Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly. [/i]

Without wasting time asking hundreds of inane questions, trying on stuff they have no intention of buying and never bringing biscuits in! 😉

My LBS is awful for customer service, and renowned for it. I'm amazed they're still in business.

I drove to Leeds (I live in Sheffield), to get better customer service.

Good customer service is worth paying a bit extra for.

Surely a decent customer to a bikeshop is someone who puts money in their till repeatdly.

Without wasting time asking hundreds of inane questions, trying on stuff they have no intention of buying and never bringing biscuits in!

But thats the nature of a shop. Everytime you visit Zara etc do you walk out with something 100% of the time?

I drove [b]50 mile[/b] round trip yesterday ........ I could've saved myself [b]£20[/b] in diesel

Maybe it's time to consider a slightly more economical car?

and never bringing biscuits in!

so bike shops have to be bribed into being any good ?

so bike shops have to be bribed into being any good?

Aye but the 'centre of the community/hub to the cycling community' sadly doesn't except any other payment than cash or credit cards for their goods.

Also look at the Arnold Clark/Car dealership sales tactic: Use the offer of a 20p cup of tea to extract thousands from your customers. Let the customer feel 'as a friend'.

Then, when you don't have an income, try popping into the shop thats friend s with you and watch how they treat you after a while of not buying anything....

I don't have a 'Local' bike shop. nearest one is a 16 mile round trip, and the nearest one with decent stock levels and knowledgeable staff is a 50 mile round trip. Which is why I use the 'net for most of my stuff, and have learned to look after my bike

oh, guys: You're pretty much re-enforcing Don Simon's POV from a business stand point, good job some of you don't run shops, you wouldn't last long.

People have the right to spend there money where they want. Times are tight and people will generally go for the best financially viable option. This option takes into account time, price, fitting and convenience.

Online suppliers are a good thing and offer another option to people. I can't see a GOOD LBS going out of business unless it through bad service and poor reputation.

oh, guys: You're pretty much re-enforcing Don Simon's POV from a business stand point,

Aye but the 'centre of the community/hub to the cycling community' sadly doesn't except any other payment than cash or credit cards for their goods.

I drove 50 mile round trip yesterday ........ I could've saved myself £20 in diesel
Maybe it's time to consider a slightly more economical car?

I was reckoning on the 100 mile all in journey to drop off then return to collect - 25 (actually 29) miles each way x 4.

In any event, I drive a Land Rover. I gave up thinking about fuel economy years ago.

Thanks for defining your idea more clearly (for the benefit of the group)... While I think it may (or really, may not) have changed from simply being a grudge, I still think it's seriously flawed.

If you really want to make a service statement, is there an option to run a bike shop with two prices on all parts. One is price for the part only (to compete with the internet), and the other is a fitted price.

So, for example:

CK headset £90
CK headset fitted £110

I keep missing the part where Don Simon expressed a grudge...

There is no grudge. Please tell me where you see a grudge?
Some people get it, others no. That's life.

The last direct questions I asked weren't answered, so please answer this. 😀

You can please some of the people all of the time... etc.

EDIT: You're still not comparing like with like. 😉

I have been keeping an eye on this thread with great interest over the past couple of days, why? Well....

I am considering opening an LBS myself - DON'T I hear you say! You could be right and this could be the best advice ever, but....

I love bikes! And further more I love working with & helping people to make informed decisions and to meet the needs of the customer.

However, there is a fundamental issue with this....not every customer actually knows what their needs are when they actually go into a shop.

So....

This is where the LBS could really add value! Understand your customer and understand their needs - this way you'll make the right sale, to the right customer, at the right time for them (and you!).

Every point of every customer that has commented on this thread is actually right....because it is what they feel and/or have experienced. Therefore it is down to the LBS to change this for them on the day that person actually does walk into their shop as a customer.

We are all decent customers (in our own way) and we have the choice to make, online or LBS? Its your choice. But if you become a customer of mine I like many other LBS's (not all I agree) will do our best to help you.

And what's wrong with that? Do you work for free...?

I've just been to Evans Manchester this evening to sort out a issue on my frame. Saw me on the spot and resolved.

Yes its Evans but I've had nothing but good service from them. You'd think everyone slips up in a while and boy have I caught a few. Not that store. I wonder who the manager is and his/her approach (as it bloody works).

I've never experienced bad service from anyone in that store either.

This is where the LBS could really add value! Understand your customer and understand their needs - this way you'll make the right sale, to the right customer, at the right time for them (and you!).

The hardest is probably differentiating between the wants and needs and having the conviction to give them what they need in spite of them arguing about what they want. And after years of experience the hardest word for a salesman to say is "no", I won't sell you that because you only want it and not need it. This I'll admit is more directed to regular customers than passing trade, but I'm more accustomed to developing new territories than anything.

The hardest is probably differentiating between the wants and needs and having the conviction to give them what they need in spite of them arguing about what they want. And after years of experience the hardest word for a salesman to say is "no", I won't sell you that because you only want it and not need it. This I'll admit is more directed to regular customers than passing trade, but I'm more accustomed to developing new territories than anything.

The difference between want & need is usually cost, so rarely will you EVER sell something to someone they actually 'want', the trick is to find out want they need and sell to this need - and in my experience as sales manager for the last 20 years 'this is the ONLY way to sell'.