[Closed] the bike industry is suffering

Or just buy new rims and spokes and use the hubs if they are already boosted.
Boost appears to have arrived partly as a consequence of 29" wheels. The bigger wheel flexes more and a wider hub helps reduce that.
A lot of this seems to be down the industry-led 'improvements' to sell and resell stuff. The changes appear to be coming as a change is introduced using a lot of the normal stuff but it doesn't all work as well as it could - so a new standard is introduced to help gain more benefit (benefit could be any number of things, including financial benefit to the manufacturer) which results in change.
For the vast majority this won't make any real difference, but it will have a placebo effect to plenty.
The bike industry has a limited volume of customers, so they need to keep asking for more money from us collectively. The daft prices are also helped by the sheer volume of people willing to pay those prices, if we didn't, the prices would come down a bit (an improved £ wouldn't have an immediate improvement but it could - although unlikely as the bike company won't reduce profit just because their costs are lower, not if the riders are still happy to pay).
It isn't easy to fix as there are many levels and threads that cause this - from riders, manufacturers and currency.

remember that time when everyone said a 29er was no good for downhill.... then minaar went and won one .... pretty sure that wasnt down to the wheelsize

According to him the biggest improvement was having a bike that finally fit him. That could have been done with 26" wheels.

Steve Jones and Chris Porter have talked about this in the past:

Well the bike industry doesn't make much out of me anymore that's for sure. Gone are the days when I was buying bling just to be blingy.
My last brand new bike was a 2011 Fiveling cabinet which I still ride & it's still a better bike than I'll ever be a rider.
In fact It's only the 2nd brand new whole bike I've ever bought in 26 years of riding, my 1st was a Saracen Tufftrax! I've had a couple of new frames & built them up myself.
I think all I've bought this year is some 2nd hand tyres off Fleabay.

Very true. (good riders are good on anything)

Another point also not really covered is the waste in this “buy new” every few years model.

Increasingly its not just the yoghurt knitters and skin flints(I’m a little of both) who are realising the old adage “mend and make do” is not only cost effective but better from an environmental perspective.

So whilst I have plenty if money, my own personal instinct not to waste means I also repair kit and maintain bikes well.

When I hear riders say they need a new bike because the bearings are rough and brake pads worn it just makes me think their a bit naive.

I think there are some rose tinted glasses, People want "standards" when what they actually mean is;

"please stop developing and improving materials/design/weight on stuff like wheels, forks, groupsets for at least 5 years, or until I feel I've had my monies worth out of my current kit"

26", front mechs, 1.125 steerers, all those things didn't change for ages, now they all change, all the time, and it gives people the fear. Sure the bike industry needs to stop and pause for a bit to let us catch up, but folks are always on the upgrade curve at different places, and some folk will always want to next greatest thing (whether that's advertising driven or actual need is a whole 'nother thread).

I can imagine for folk who've invested a bunch of money into a 2012 (or thereabouts) bike, it must be massively frustrating though

those that think the current crop of gearboxes are the future are going to be disapointed when they ride them.

Still waiting for that magic bullet when someone makes one thats as efficient and as light as the deraileur system.

another disappointing standard from the MTB industry imo.

on another note Im pretty sure that with regular servicing my current forks will outlast my frame tbh..... it just means i cant change to this years blingy stickered all singing all dancing mega new platform heel damping fork.... so not bothered i cant get new 1 1/8th forks.

For it to be the magic bullet it would also need to be as cheap as the rear derailleur .

Still waiting for that magic bullet when someone makes one thats as efficient and as light as the deraileur system.

A derailleur tangled in the rear wheel or clogged with undergrowth will be far less efficient than a gearbox. If the efficiency of a gearbox matches and Alfine I'll be quite happy.

Also, as far as weight goes, once you start designing a bike [i]for[/i] a gearbox bike you can take a lot of weight away from the rear wheel in two way. First you remove the cassette and derailleur and replace it with a single sprocket. Second you can use fewer spokes and a lighter rim and a narrower hub since you don't have to have to put a stupid amount of dish into the wheel. Millyard was using a 100mm hub with a single arm swing-arm. The increase in weight will all be sprung mass while the unsprung mass can be reduced.

Quite apart from all that, derailleurs have had 100 years to get to where they are now while gearboxes have had 1/10 of that. What can be achieved if the major manufacturers actually start taking them seriously?

Oh yeah, as far as cost goes, how much does Sram's latest 1x11 groupset cost and how often does it have to be replaced compared to a gearbox?

Like I said earlier, there is scope for some serious improvements if we can break this addiction to turd polishing.

if they can improve them it will be great but they are not ready yet.

and if it matches the efficiency of an alfine ill not be buying one. i lived with one for 2 years ..... it was shit. i also have a rohloff - it has an uncanny ability to kill any bikes ride dead - its currently hanging on in my garage on my fat bike where i dont seem to notice it in the same way and the pinion i didnt like the fact you have to STOP pedaling - not just ease off but you have to physically momentarily stop to shift.

the pinions close to what we need but it still needs refinement - and then the whole standards game starts again.

last time i had a deraileur through the wheel was 2008. i remember it well i spewed as it was an XTR shadow its not exactly a common occurance unless your a hash.

who remembers the hammerschmidt. lots of people bought into that expensive white elephant.....

once the koolaid finished there were alot of folk disapointed in their investment.

I'm very happy running my Alfine 8 on my Dialled Alpine. I made the switch after I wrecked my third derailleur in five years. I ride natural trails with plenty of rocks and vegetation to grab anything hanging off the bike. I also don't pick my way through rocky or slightly overgrown sections. Maybe I should have but the Alfine fixed that problem so I didn't have to.

Pedalling felt weird and inefficient at first but I got used to the feeling and realised that I wasn't actually losing as much power as I first thought. The numbers that are available tend to bear this out.

One of the biggest benefits I find is that I can batter through the gears without pedalling coming into corners or when I get hooked up unexpectedly on a technical climb.

Horses for courses I guess.

I still think that the efficiencies gained by designing a full suspension bike [i]for[/i] a gearbox could outweigh any drawbacks but until someone actually does this it will be difficult to say.

I won't have any problem accepting a new standard if it means genuine improvement which I don't believe the current new standards provide.

For it to be the magic bullet it would also need to be as cheap as the rear derailleur

price on a pinion box is 599 (which imo is tremendous considering in manufacturing terms) to us not including the bits like cranks and shifters so nearly double the cost of the priciest mechs and nearly 20 times the cost of an slx

26 inch Bontrager TLR tyres - mainly because trek don't make 26 inch bikes any more.
26 inch Bontrager TLR wheels - for the same reason.
26 inch 1.125 steerer forks - if you can still get them, they're lubricated with unicorn tears and

Well there you go then, 3 things lots of other 26" rubber available, Stans released their new rims in 26" too so not that hard. as above some forks available still but also when was the last non tapered head tube bike made?
Think it was 09/10 maybe I last saw them commonly so that makes it 7-8 years old now?

I've kind of resigned myself to having to go down the Stan's route at some point in the future, but am still wary of falling foul of the "which tyres work with this rim?" scenario (an issue that didn't exists with the Bontrager system)
As for having a (perfect acceptable) 7-8 year old bike - I make no apologies for that, as it's a bike that I enjoy riding, and which has its place in my collection of bikes that includes a wide range of standards, as I am willing to buy new stuff. I just don't want to have stop using the older stuff, just because it's older.

designing a full suspension bike for a gearbox could outweigh any drawbacks

Trouble with that approach is that it limits your choice of drive-train to a specific product. what if pinion (inser other gearbox manaufactueres name here) decide that your gearbox is old and that they won't support it anymore and what you need is super spangly "Extra-pedal-o-matic" instead? you're forced even more to the whims of the manufacturers, Don't want the extra-pedal-o-matic? well, tough, your frame that only takes a gearbox is now redundant.

It’s change for change sake in this industry. Every year isn’t comparable with the last. And with few perceived benefits for the owner other than advertising hyperbolic nonsense people are starting to see through it.
Bolt through axels are the last thing I wanted to have as I could see the pont. But boosted hub sizes are just the latest is must have features. These benefits come face to face with customer experience and are found to be nothing but marketing bs. See the push fit revolution for details. The next remarkable feature is seen through the lens of the last. After a while your buying public have stopped listening or believing you. And stop spending. Perfect storm.

I agree with trail rat, gearboxes are still an expensive, niche product at the moment.

TBH pinion have done a lot of work developing and trying to push their adoption, but they're not a big enough outfit and we probably won't see them becoming a commonly available or affordable option until one of the 'big Ss' buys them out...

I still like the idea of a mech in a box TBH, RN01 style, but doubt it will happen any time soon...

Brexit and the currency shocks are responsible for some of the price rises as everything is imported to the UK - if your £ is worth less then stuff costs more.

No conspiracy no, but there is a coordinated effort to influence buying decisions part of which is the creation of technical barriers to try and minimise the re-use of existing parts...

I don't think new standards in and of themselves are a problem. The only way the bike industry can maintain sales is increase the numbers of people buying bikes because regardless of new standards most of us are not changing bikes every year. Some people are buying bikes on finance over 1 -5 years. You'd imagine that they're planning to get at least that amount of time out of the bike maybe with a few upgrades to it along the way. Judging by the amount of high end MTBs on Ebay "only ridden 3 times" there's people buying bikes and deciding it's not for them. They're not going to be buying another. Some of us get years and years out of a bike - before I bought a (used) Sonder this year my last bike was a 2002 Cove Handjob which I've still got, it's worth nothing, like all the other 26" MTBs sitting in sheds.

Sorry but this is bollocks

it's not, prices rises are happening in the UK because of the falling value of the pound, that prices are rising in other parts of the world at the same time doesn't make it less true.

but doubt it will happen any time soon

soon?

We would still have price rises (just as everyone else has) There is always a reason/excuse.

I like to keep my bikes running as long as possible.
It doesn't stop me from buying new bikes.
🙂

And I'd still be buying bits to keep the old bikes running.

No conspiracy no, but there is a coordinated effort to influence buying decisions part of which is the creation of [s]technical barriers to try and minimise the re-use of[/s] products that are fit for mountain biking, as opposed to adapted existing parts that are inevitably not compatible with some other existing parts...

maybe?

But not of the order we are experiencing, the pound in very definitely worth a lot less than it was a couple of years ago.
That is clearly going to make things more expensive whether your denial likes it or not.

and of course theres a reason, whats the other option Gods will?

and of course theres a reason, whats the other option

Of course there is, to quote the often misquoted but lovable rogue....kryton57

It's just GROSS PROFITEERING 😉

Sorry but this is bollocks

Be interesting to bookmark this thread and revisit it in a year - Dec 2018 - and count how many new standards *cough* "innovations* the industry will have rolled out.

By then:

[i]"Boost 148 Sir? Oh, that's SO last weekend...."

"A gravel bike Sir? Oh yes, I have a vague recollection of those... they were popular for a while weren't they? I wonder what happened to them?"[/i]

My prediction is that the industry will heavily market e-bikes in every category (MTB, road, commuter, whatever), and that 'smart' bikes will undergo further developments making them mainstream, integrating electronics with automatic shifting.

At which point actually pedalling to ride a bike will be so passé it'll be frowned upon and we will have entirely lost the soul of actually riding a bike.

It's just GROSS PROFITEERING

Nah, no raffles here.

At which point actually pedalling to ride a bike will be so passé it'll be frowned upon and we will have entirely lost the soul of actually riding a bike.

E-bikes logical conclusion.

neat thread!
😯

Hope some from the

bike industry

If this is true:

After a while your buying public have stopped listening or believing you

the bike industry is suffering

just ordered the lmx2

is there an emoticon for awesome

I know it's everything I should despise, but it sure looks fun.

Re the above.

I remember your shop on the switchback having a sign on the door which stated:

' We don't fix ordinary bikes'

You meant it too

I’ve completely changed since I moved to Maryhill.

It now says “No repairs, try Bike Love ->” 😀

in this thread: lots complaining about

"BOOST induced pain"

now - these LMX wonder-bikes:

just ordered the lmx2

These are the ones which really need BOOST
😈

These are the ones which really need BOOST

double crown fork? nah

fact it looks like a moto x light bike i think will be the rage induction hall of fame on the trails ....how long before theres a ronnie pickering level event between a peasant on their crappy 8 k wunderbike amd the royalty who can afford the gnar and kudos of e bike ( do i need to put smiley)

will be the rage induction hall of fame on the trails

now - these LMX wonder-bikes:

But almost completely usless in the UK, where could you legally ride one unless you had a land owners permission ?

UK, where could you legally ride one unless you had a land owners permission ?

UK: the proud owners of the LMX2 have to pedal...to legally use their BOOST...
😆

UK: the proud owners of the LMX2 have to pedal...to legally use their BOOST...

some people eh

things that look like motorbikes causing potential friction on trails shocker , and next time snip the whole rather than bit that makes you feel smart.

But almost completely usless in the UK, where could you legally ride one unless you had a land owners permission ?

The problem with the standards changing is that you can’t just buy a couple of bits and be up to date. When things used to change you might buy a new frame and maybe new brakes or forks or something but now if you’ve not changed bikes in 3 or 4 years you can’t upgrade, you really have to buy most things again new. So it’s bettet to buy a fulll bike. But the enthusiasts are getting a bit wary now because in the time you’ve spent building the bike part of it will be obsolete - so you know you’ll struggle to upgrade it as time goes on.

Sticking with the old standards is still possible and a lot of people have switched off to new bikes. I used to follow all the changes but I’ve given up now, don’t want to buy mags and read web reviews as it makes me want to upgrade which I can’t do. I’ve got a £2500 bike which i can’t upgrade now but I could only maybe stretch to £7-800. Years ago I could just buy a new frame but that’s impossible now. So why bother?

This thread should be referenced in the next rim vs disc road bike thread.

Does anyone actually care that they aren't selling as many bikes?

The consumer is gullible up to a point .... and when there is added value that can be recognised.
Now, it's just not marketing guff .... but areal step forward.
If I look at my first Trek Y11 and the suspension bikes of now, I can see a real difference. But is not so great between my old patriot 66 and now.
Disc brakes are night and day compared to cantis .... but my very original hopes were still absolutely stunning compared to cantis. The seals that used to swell in them were a pain the the arse ....
Frame angles will come an go ... the current kicked out front end is beginning to make everything look like a 1960 Harley Chopper. The will handle going down hill, but in the twisties it is compromised.
And I wonder where most miles are really ridden.

29 vs 27.5 vs 26 .... who cares ... there is so much gumph about roll over capability ... but i am guessing to a top rider it will make very little difference. Where it does help is for different heights of riders ... at 6ft 3 ins, 29 seems much better fit to me that 26 inch ....

The cycle industry is loosing sales because the public is falling out of love with the sport, as it is crooked, cycling, because everyone is now a strava bitch, and the attitude of cyclists, who many see as regarding themselves above the law.
And anyway, bikes are like cycling , but you don't have to do the effort ...