[Closed] That new Cotic Rocket

I like anything that is how it is because it works best that way, no other reason. I'm suspicious of things that are over-styled. Simplest way to achieve what you want is usually the best, taking things away is better than adding more stuff on, etc.

The Rocket looks ace imo. The seat-top tube junction looks totally sensible and frees up top tube width too, it's great.

If you want perfect flowy lines there's plenty of hydroformed stuff already out there.

Cannot wait to ride the Rocket. Booked my Demo with Stu at the Dales Bike centre on the 21st April. Orange looks good black equally so. I wonder what it would look like in Solaris Green???? Looks good Cy.

Since when is having an opinion rude?

Thank you

I said in my opinion I think it looks hideous and I'm sorry for upsetting people but looks do matter on a bike and I dont like the look of it.

Just out interest I do own a Soul

The orange one looks brilliant. If it wasnt for the fact that its way out of my price range and way too similar (intended use) to the bike I already have, I'd be seriously considering one.

When I get bored of my ST4, I'll be testing one of those a) because Cy knows how to make great bikes b) because I've met him a couple of times and he's a top fella and incredibly passionate about what he does and c) because it'll be ace.

Personally I like the look of it. But even if I didn't I'd still seriously consider it because I know that Cy is a great bike designer with a OCD attention to detail. Still I love my Carbon 456 and frankly that's not a looker. Who cares 😉

It's not easy designing cutting edge products in a small company and if you focus on engineering the product as well as possible, whilst always bearing in mind the aesthetic but never letting form dominate to the detriment of function, you will come up for criticism. However you'll also develop a legitimate brand that people will trust and as you're never going to claim 100% market share then the criticism doesn't really matter. Easy to type that but I still get defensive about my own products despite them being engineered to the nth degree and every detail being considered. Sometimes the best solution isn't as pretty as you'd like but wouldn't you rather have that than a compromised but more attractive one?

Personally I think the Rocket looks awesome and I'd love an orange medium one to go with my Soul if I could justify it! If I lived somewhere with gnarlier local trails I'd be sorely tempted but round here my Soul is sooo damned fast when I'm on it (not as in me being on it, me being on it when I'm ON IT. You dig me?)

It looks great as seen at Bespoked the other weekend, show me a large (26" wheeled frame) that doesn't look at bit 'gawky' propotion wise.
Believe me I know as have to ride them at 6'3".
If you want a 'right' looking gate sized frame you need a 29er IMO
😉

I too think that the small frame looks a thing of joy and beauty and the large looks like a bit of a gate. I believe that I *may* have mentioned this in a passing email to Cy...

However I will reserve judgement on the matter until I see joe@cycle worlds medium in orange in the flesh.

I'm really really hoping that it's a minger as I'm totally skint having just stumped up for my Solaris...

And brant, I hear what you are saying I'm glad you feel that strongly to say it. Sadly such passion is all too missing from our lives.

And if the rocket actually rides as well as its *hyped* then wgaf what it looks likes really.

I've only seen/ridden a large Rocket, and it didn't look/feel like a gate to me. Small bikes are more "rad" though, as everyone knows, so I'm looking forward to seeing a small one built up "in the metal".

More Rocket photos on Flickr (including some snaps of Cy's large prototype out in the real world, not sat in front of some boxes):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/coticltd/sets/72157629727121781/with/6837550101/

It's not easy designing cutting edge products in a small company and if you focus on engineering the product as well as possible, whilst always bearing in mind the aesthetic but never letting form dominate to the detriment of function, you will come up for criticism. However you'll also develop a legitimate brand that people will trust and as you're never going to claim 100% market share then the criticism doesn't really matter.

THIS

I own a Maverick, one of what many people consider one of the ugliest full suspension bikes out there, but it was designed by a guy with a similar Principle to this and that of Cy's. The fact Paul Turner too is a great engineer with a passion for riding bikes, and was at the time pretty much a one man band after he'd sold Rockshox, and you can draw some similarities. The fact the looks are challenging to most people (I actually quite like the way it looks, but what do I know!) is of no concern to me whatsoever. For a 5" travel XC bike, it's still a total swiss army knife of a bike, designed not to excel in one particular area but just be bloody good all round. People have raced them competitively in Enduro DH's, and also top level XC.

And just like Cy, Maverick has a proper hardcore group of followers (check out the MTBR forums if you don't believe me) who can't wait to see what the next chapter is in their history!

Long live guys like Cy and Paul Turner, pushing the engineering boundaries rather than the marketing ones, unafraid to use a design that's unconventional or use a different material to the norm, in pursuit of perfection. There is always a ready market for these designs, it's just never going to be as large as the more conventional market of course.

We were looking at an orange Rocket at Wharncliffe on Saturday afternoon.
My mate was creaming in his jeans!
😉

Did I miss it, or did anyone question the idea of building a frame out of steel just because of the seat tube diameter?

I personally think steel sussers are pointless and have yet to be convinced otherwise. It is a nice looking bike though and I would wish cotic well.

Already been done - the engineering makes sense.

muddyfunster - Member
Did I miss it, or did anyone question the idea of building a frame out of steel just because of the seat tube diameter?

I'm no engineer but the numbers, logic and first ride reviews seem to suggest the concept and engineering is sound.

slainte 💡 rob

Im wondering if the rocket will be available with a XT complete build (as in the pics.). Wonder how much that would be ?

Personally I like the look of the large. Real man's size. Real steel and all that. Just too rich for my blood.

For the benefit of Brant I'm not being rude when I say, the spanner flats on the linkage bolts are poor. Yes they may only be 2mm wide, but here is a whole world of engineering solutions to make them recessed and functional. The cost of doing so is another matter.

Hats off to Cy for doing what he believes in.

That was me in polite, diplomatic mode. If anyone wants to know what I think of carbon bikes, I'll be on another bike forum. 😉 🙄

The right opinion when criticising is the one you would give if Cy was stood in front of you.

I like it, but I also liked my Hemlock and now my Nukeproof Mega. And I would love a Nicolai 🙂

ska-49 - Member
Im wondering if the rocket will be available with a XT complete build (as in the pics.). Wonder how much that would be ?

Frame only, it seems. Plenty of cheap groupsets doing the rounds though - £2.5K would put you on a very nice build.

colournoise

Having read the Cotic newsletters, watched his Youtube lecture, and seen some posts here, I think Cy himself questioned it quite a bit.

I'm no engineer but the numbers, logic and first ride reviews seem to suggest the concept and engineering is sound.

Righteeo. Not questioning the internal logic of it, if you like. But I'd be very suspicious that it isn't creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. You have to wonder why every major manufacturer hasn't had to solve this problem by making steel full sussers.

It's not a problem / solution scenario.

It's just a different way of doing something

With product design it's common for things to move in small evolutionary steps. The problem with that is that after many generations of evolution you're likely to end up a long way from where you started in terms of target functionality but the evolutionary solution is hamstrung by the small step-changes. In this case the big change is what's expected of a 150mm full-sus bike in its ability to carry speed and be almost rideable like a DH bike from not so long ago - that requires a much stiffer chassis to support the suspension so it can move as designed. However the solution which the evolutionary approach arrives at isn't necessarily the best one.

A small manufacturer that isn't caught up in the usual annual product cycle can take a much more clean sheet approach - the original carbon fibre Ibis Mojo being another great example of this. It's also important to bear in mind that a large company which has pushed certain marketing agenda and brand messages for years is going to be much more reluctant to do something radical with one product because of the risk of it damaging the sales proposition of their other models.

Seriously. Cy is a genius

over egging the pudding there. or is he moonlighting at CERN

The reviews seem very good but maybe the paid for holiday by Cotic to the Hot summer med has given the reviewers guilty conscience about giving it a bad or avg review???

So id be more interested to hear what real customers have to say or people who have demoed the bike here in blighty.

I dont think its ugly it looks functional and as long as it does what it says on the tin as such why bash it?

but problems i see are the weight and the 150mm rear suspension as im sure this is going to get the bike stuck on the typical muddy trails we tend to see here in UK, also all day comfort?

The reviews seem very good but maybe the paid for holiday by Cotic to the Hot summer med has given the reviewers guilty conscience about giving it a bad or avg review???

When did this happen? AFAIK the only journos who have ridden it did so in The Peaks.

Righteeo. Not questioning the internal logic of it, if you like. But I'd be very suspicious that it isn't creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. You have to wonder why every major manufacturer hasn't had to solve this problem by making steel full sussers.

Steel may be in vogue again for hardtails (note number of major manu's following Cotic's lead some 8-10 years later and bringing out their own versions) where a 1lb weight penalty for the ride qualities it gives is seen as more than acceptable. Rightly or wrongly, steel is perceived as heavy and pointless for full suspension bike manufacture, it's also much more expensive to make a bike out of decent steel than it is from Aluminium (or probably even cheap carbon fibre these days!). Added to that fact it would be seen as a very leftfield approach to make one out of steel, and no major manufacturer is going to bother, it'd be too much of a risk.

Cotic is a very small business by comparison, born out of one man's desire to take a risk and build frames he wanted to ride himself in the first place cos nobody else was doing it. The "problem" that making it out of predominantly 853 steel is solving is that of stifness. 7.6lb including shock for a 150mm travel frame of this ilk is competitive. 853 steel is very stiff compared to lesser steels, and as steel is inherently stiffer/stronger than aluminium (ally acheives stifness in bike frames through using larger sections in general, and more of it) when used in the same profile, then why not make the bike out of steel? Having owned one, I can tell you an 853 BFe is a VERY stiff thing indeed (was too stiff for me) which would make the front triangle a perfect place to hang a decent rear suspension design off the back of, as frame stifness is much more important with full sus than on a hardtail in general. Ergo, as he's a small company, isn't afraid to take a risk, doesn't mind it being a slightly expensive "niche" product compared to other similar designs, then it made sense to him to make it out of steel...

but problems i see are the weight and the 150mm rear suspension as im sure this is going to get the bike stuck on the typical muddy trails we tend to see here in UK, also all day comfort?

7.6lb for the frame including shock is competitive for a 150mm travel, hard riding trail bike. There are lighter 150mm travel frames for definite, but they're probably not as slack or low and are aimed more at all day comfort than the hooligans the Cotic is aimed at. Not to say that 150mm of travel isn't going to be uncomfortable of course...

And as for getting stuck in the UK mud... Have you seen how much rear tyre clearance there is? It's f***ing huge! And the pivots are all pretty big, and look like they use sealed cartridge bearings, so shouldn't be any different to any other full sus bike (and better than many) in that respect.

Looks really different and interesting - probably not for me because of the weight, but I'd love a go on somebody else's.

Seriously. Cy is a genius
over egging the pudding there. or is he moonlighting at CERN

No he really is a genius. He gets some people to tell him what angles will be good and then gets the same people to then weld some steel together. Or at least that's more or less what he said he did whilst showing slides he had ripped right off sheldon browns website. In a lecture he held.

The crucial thing is how it rides, but having said that the aesthetics are obviously an important feature in a bikes design - in the eye of the beholder and all that. Personally there are aspects I like about it and others I’m less keen on.

It can be no surprise that a picture of a new MTB frame on a MTB forum will rightly solicit a wide range of opinions - it’s just that some of those views are not particularly well nuanced and lack finesse - in keeping with the forum then!

I admire Cy for his innovativeness & coming on here to explain things. He clearly produces great UK designed bikes - good on him is what I say.

Long live little manufacturers doing things slightly differently. Long live them doing it in the UK and long live them taking the time to pop onto forums and help us all out. The more choice and variety in the market the better, as some of us don't want the latest, lightest, carbonest frames. It's the first Cotic I've seen that I would actually really (really) like. Good work Cy, (and Stanton, Dialled, Pipedream, Ragley, Kingdom, Singular etc etc etc) you make the sport better for a lot of people out there!

Ride one yourself … demo details on the Cotic website.

Oh, the “flying journos to the Med” thing was a joke, obviously.

Long live little manufacturers doing things slightly differently. Long live them doing it in the UK and long live them taking the time to pop onto forums and help us all out. The more choice and variety in the market the better

Well said.

I think it's pretty nice, just a bit gutted it's more bike than I think I'd want.

the first time i saw the Rocket i wasn't sure,

after some of the more recent photos i can't help want one, why would i sell my 2011 heckler frame to buy a frame made of Reynolds and alloy ??,

er because i had a Soul thats why, those welds still make me drool, the ring of those tubes, the orange paint,
the finish, the way Cy answered my questions personally by phone and was honest,

the rocket, looks lovely and i have no idea why, those bolts, nothing, little redesign, a small bit of Ti
few mins on the 5 axis i'll soon have that sorted,

two types in life those who moan, belittle , don't achieve, don't strive, don't put there neck above the parapet

and then there is the rest of us,

it's just ying and yang,

so Cy you got my money 😉

I hope they bring a 100mm travel version out. Theres not really much on the market at the moment in terms of short travel play bikes (apart from 4x bikes, but they're too small and catn be ridden up hill easily)

davidtaylforth - Member
I hope they bring a 100mm travel version out. Theres not really much on the market at the moment in terms of short travel play bikes (apart from 4x bikes, but they're too small and catn be ridden up hill easily)

Would love a shorter travel version (although IIRC correctly CY has hinted that such a thing might not be steel).

Would love even more a Rocket designed for mismatched travel - something like 100-120mm progressive rear with 130-150mm forks. Have long thought this is an ideal layout for a UK 'play' AM bike.

slainte 😀 rob

heres from the cotic site, and just look at the bikeradar review pictures...it ant no UK test ride unless i been missing all this sunny weather lol
http://www.cotic.co.uk/news/
"Last week we flew a select group of UK journalists to Arizona (or was it the Mediterranean?) to show them what the Rocket can do. They enjoyed the dry dusty trails, and, we're very pleased to say, our new bike..."

I think the bike though is very good, but price wise i thinking its going to fit around the £2k mark by the time you have got the bike fully built, so is it good value ? either way it does need to stand out with that sort of price range and having the set-up as it stands is certainly doing tht.!

davidtaylforth - Member

I hope they bring a 100mm travel version out. Theres not really much on the market at the moment in terms of short travel play bikes (apart from 4x bikes, but they're too small and catn be ridden up hill easily)

GT Distortion is top of my list at the moment. Seem to be pretty rare though and, as I haven't tried an i-drive since 1999, I'd really want a test ride first.

blablablacksheep -

it ant no UK test ride unless i been missing all this sunny weather lol

And, fwiw, this bike is very much on my "what next?" List. I'll be watching with interest.

Make sure it's a M in orange with a fox shock, so I can buy it fomr you 3 month after you get it 😉

853 steel is very stiff compared to lesser steels

Um, no it isn't. They're all equally stiff. 853's just stronger.

( http://reynoldstechnology.biz/assets/pdf/rtl_steel_alloys_extract.pdf)

Looks wise not sure. The top tube/seat tube on the large frame looks like a right angle in the photo which does make it look like a gate.

The small looks great though. I'd love to demo a complete bike.

Large looks hideous.

The small looks surprisingly good. It's hard to believe it's the same bike.

Quick question: what is the [b]size of rear shock[/b]?
Can one order the frame only, with no shock?
Have you tested it with CCDB?

Large looks hideous.

show me a large 26er which doesn't...

It makes me chuckle some of the comments on here. Having sat down with Cy for curry and beer and also having done some 3d stuff for the man I know how much soul searching and research and plain thought he's put into the rocket.
It's possibly the only time I'd publicly agree with brant but Cy is out there when it comes to attention to detail and research.
The small looks the dogs, the big looks big! As for the ride, a friend has ordered one on the back of doing some development riding on one of the test bikes and for him to part with cash it must be good.
I don't hear people knocking trek or specialized when they make fugly, but then they're huge faceless corporations who don't pop up on stw to voice an opinion or ask/answer questions so they can make their products better.
Just my ten penneth.

Ok. As one of the Journalists there - I can tell you it was Curbar in the Peaks and not the med (the weather was amazing though!) and I rode a medium Rocket - I've already given my brief take on the first ride on the front page , but for a first ride i was impressed with how well it rode, it's a very nice thought out modern full susser that happens to be made in Steel , very specifically, that particular model in terms of travel and usage that Cy had in mind for the bike is made in steel as it weighs a very similar amount to an Aluminium frame built for the same use by other Manufacturers .

Aesthetics are entirely subjective thing anyway so I'm not going to comment on what other people think about the look of it , except try and see one in the flesh before you make your mind up.

Finally neither Jenn or myself hit there Calves on any pointy bits .

A more long term test coming soon.

I think its lovely that Cy come on here and discusses things.
I do find it amazing that Coogan, SBrock , Gary Lager and others can be quite so rude about things that fine honest people have crafted.

I mean, this is Cy. His own money. His own time. No big corporation.

It's just seems really rude.

Would it be better to throw ALOT of money into the mix/advertising, sponsored events, teams of sales people or simple stand at the coalface and hear feedback direct from your intended market?

In general folks, knowing the man or not, part of the design process isn't about design, modelling, factory liason etc- its what potential customers say and how the product is received by the general public.

At the end of the day you aren't making a masterpiece for a small handful of friends you are hoping for commercial success with the customer (who is and will always remain King).

Or are you too niche to listen to them? 🙄

No one in anyway is slagging Cy off. Its feedback. Butt out and stop the faux-defending. Its a product. Let the product fight its corner.

Thanks for the kind words people. Much appreciated.

To whoever asked, it's 200x57, we haven't tested it with a CCDB, but we can work you out a price without a shock. We've just sorted out a price on a BOS Stoy though, which will be £1655. There will be a lead time though as the shocks will have to be built to order by BOS.

Sorry I don't mean to come across as rude 😀 but you can't just promote products on a forum and expect a form of sycophancy can you guys? Every product goes through changes, updates and mid-life revisions etc etc.

I don't expect anything particularly, which is why all the nice things people have said are lovely. Quite surprised how upset people are getting about a 8mm x 2mm piece of steel, but apart from that it's just peoples' opinions, eh?

For the record - as I know you all care - I think the Rocket looks spot-on but I'm more than happy with my fantastic BFe for the time being!
Sycophantic enough?

Are there any plans for a complete bike option? Or maybe frame and forks or rolling chassis? The bike looks fantastic but without any suitable parts in my shed a build could get costly!

We've looked at completes recently, but we just can't buy in big enough quantities to make the price anything much less that you'd manage on your own with a bit of shopping around, and we struggle on the bits you do - forks and brakes. Plus, the financial risk to us of having to buy in quantity for making virtually the same profit as just selling frames (which is pretty much what it works out as) isn't sensible. As one of my uni lecturers once told me - Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity.

You have to be buying 100's or 1000's to get pricing that would make sense with us having to assemble them and then dealer margins as well. We keep an eye on it, but we still sell less than 1000 units per year total across all product lines, and are comfortable at this level too, so I can't see that changing unless one of the major suppliers wants to get all philanthropic on us 😉

Sycophantic enough?

Sorry- its a product. Your not insulting the man, his wife and his Linage FFS! Yes, to a degree it is the labours of the man but its part of the products lifecycle...its reception, praise, critism etc.. 😛

I hope they bring a 100mm travel version out. Theres not really much on the market at the moment in terms of short travel play bikes (apart from 4x bikes, but they're too small and catn be ridden up hill easily)

Even though you are an old man who rides tourers, occasionally you do speak sense 😀

I'd imagine a 100mm travel version with cotic geometry would be a winner.

Recently, I tried to buy a frame with 4 inches of travel, a 69 deg head angle and a long enough seat tube..............couldn't find one easily and ended up with a frame that is no longer made.

[i]I'd imagine a 100mm travel version with cotic geometry would be a winner.[/i]

Have a look at Cy's twitter stream from a couple of weeks back and then smile...

Yet another question: can I get Rocket frame with [b]no bottle mount[/b]?
Sorry, but it offends my aesthetic taste 🙂

Sorry Bikebert, all frames have bottle mounts. We don't do fittings options. We're a small brand, not a custom builder. As we've found over the years, preferences on frame fittings are like arseholes...... 😉

I m hoping to pick up my small, bright orange Rocket on Sat. keeping the build within budget was a challenge as I wanted certain parts which just cost lots. I don't think i have made any daft compromises and will let you all know what it's like to fall off one soon.