17 seconds into my video you will see the first of our group almost fall off the repaired descent on the Stile End byway (heading towards Sadgill). The last one in our group didn't make the blind bend and fell 8ft head first into the jagged rocks of the stream. While his helmet saved him from serious head injuries, only cuts and a black eye, he suffered a nasty compound wrist fracture.
I'm all for riding to what's in front of you but the way this track has been redesigned there is little room for error and the price you pay for getting it wrong is disasterous! I have just sent my first email of complaint about a trail to these email addresses: hq@lakedistrict.gov.uk, betterhighways.carlisle@cumbria.gov.uk
If you have had any issues with this section of trail it would be great if you could also let those responsible know. Hopefully then we can then get something changed for our benefit for once.
Where did the track go before, did you always ride down the stream? Excuse my ignorance i dont know the track
what exactly is the problem?
Sounds like a bad injury, hope he recovers. What improvements do you think needs to be made? From the video it just looks like a nice smooth bit of trail that encourages high speeds followed by a corner of doom.
e-mail of complaint? really?
what tomd said, really.
Short of 'slow down' signs what can they do?
that corner has always been a bit iffy. it suffered bad after heavy rain, it needed mending.
looks a bit dodgy but no worse than before.
[quote=wwaswas dijo]what tomd said, really.
Short of 'slow down' signs what can they do?
trail design to encourage users to slow down. I'm not familiar with that bridleway, but it looks like they've resurfaced the first part then stone-pitched the bends? The smooth surface leading to the stone pitching does encourage higher speed, if previously it was rocky it would hav controllled riders speed so perhaps now they need to add some visual pinch points to make riders check their speed? We had a similar situation on the Pennine Bridleway above Hayfield, two people were hospitalised before the authorities accepted that the original design was wrong and rebuilt the trail closer to the suggestions we'd originally made
It's a bridleway and not designed for MTB's going fast, but for folk walking/cycling/horse-riding at a speed that they can stop easily if required.
Sorry for your mate etc.
Sympathies for your riding buddy but I'm having difficulty seeing much of a problem. From the video (it's been a few months since I rode it) it doesn't look very dangerous - just not engineered to be ridden at speed (which the approach is certainly conducive to) if it was a trail centre I could see your point but it [i]looks[/i] fair for a boat.
<edit> but nbt makes a good point about if the council/whoever are resurfacing then being [i]atleast[/i] sympathetic to use and the rest of the route would be a good idea.
Im not sure I get it...that's not a mountain bike trail centre, and even if it was surely it's the responsibility of the rider to look out for the trail ahead and stay in control? The bend looks fairly tight but looks pretty visible. I suppose they could run a fence along the edge so you can crash into that instead?
You went mountain biking and somebody fell off? Heavens.
It's fine unless you think that BW maintenance is done with us in mind.
I didn't like the off camber slanty waterbar a bit lower, but now I know it's there, it will be fine next time.
x2 post
Sort of echo'ing those above, unfortunate injury, but to me looks grand that some folk have put the time & effort in to surface those lower bends as they do see a fair amount of use and a LOT of water.
I dont see what is wrong? Its a shared track so you should temper youre speed anyway and its in the Lakes. What should the trails have, warning road style signs?!
Looks fine to me, you should see how they "repair" the trails in the Peak!
I'd ditto all the above, sad to hear about the injury, but that looks fine?
little room for error and the price you pay for getting it wrong is disasterous!
The most exciting type of trail to ride IMO 🙂
And it's not exactly singletrack, quite a lot of room for error?
Firstly, an email of complaint... yes. I have issues with the way this trail has been redesigned so have lodged my concerns with the authorities and also given them my suggestions. If we don't let them know about how we feel there is no justification for complaining in the future when trails are repaired and 'sanitised' without our views being taken into consideration.
Previous to the repair the trail went in a different direction. At around 12 seconds in the video you will see some cones on the left at the top of the old trail that heads off under the wall on the left. The problem they were getting round was 4x4's under cutting the wall, so it was rerouted. However in doing this they smoothed out the steep track (it looks a lot flatter on the video), which was previously covered in loose bolders and bedrock that naturally controlled your speed.
My suggestion was they bring the tight corners up one higher so there is an obviously visible right turn on the grass area just before the tree, prior to the steep, blind, off camber left hand bend.
Me and the group I was with are all experienced riders how know how to ride and this corner caught us all out. And we weren't the only ones as there were plenty of tyre tracks heading off that corner.
putting corners in? you'll never get KoM that way.
Flattyres - Member
17 seconds into my video you will see the first of our group almost fall off the repaired descent on the Stile End byway (heading towards Sadgill). The last one in our group didn't make the blind bend and fell 8ft head first into the jagged rocks of the stream. While his helmet saved him from serious head injuries, only cuts and a black eye, he suffered a nasty compound wrist fracture.
If you thought it was that bad at the time, why didn't you warn him?
[rant]
FFS. Really?
I'm currently sat here with a fractured hip because my front wheel slid out on a rock slab on a local trail. Am I complaining about that section of trail needing fixing, or that they need to fill in the ditch next to the slab that the wheel dropped into, or that they should build some trail feature to prevent me from hitting that section at 20mph? No - it's a natural trail, not a trail centre.
If you know the trail then you know where you need to slow down. If you don't know the trail then ride it at a pace that you can react to anything you see. It's whingey idiots like you that mean many of the best trails end up being sanitised. Take some responsibility for your own actions. I suggest you stick to the blue runs at trail centres or take up golf.
[/rant]
I rode that twice last summer- first time solo to check the route before taking a group on it the following week. I didn't have any issues there both times.
As said ^ in the Peak some of the repairs are over-zealous.
You should have ridden it before they did the work!! (About 30s in)
I can kind of see what the OP is talking about. The "natural line"/eyeline does seem to head straight into that stream and his mate won't be the last one to come a cropper there if nothing is done to change the track.
IMO of course.
TBF to the OP it was much more fun (and arguably less dangerous with no fast blind bends) before sanitisation. It's arguably the sanitisation that [s]caused[/s] [i]contributed to[/i] the crash.It's whingey idiots like you that mean many of the best trails end up being sanitised.
if so that's a bit worrying.there were plenty of tyre tracks heading off that corner.
Just wait until they've double-sanitised them then!
I'd have ended up in the stream 🙂
qtip - not a whingey person asking for the trails to be sanitised. Quite the opposite in fact. I would have preffered them to make more of the trail more difficult. I realise repairs need to be made I just wish more areas did it a bit more like Roych Clough has been done.
Simon R - I didn't warn him as the first guy was already stopped on the corner
hora - I'm glad you had no issues. I personally made it round the corner too. If I was on my own I wouldn't have said anything. While most people will be ok I'm sure there will be quite a few more accidents here.
It's whingey idiots like you that mean many of the best trails end up being sanitised.
What did your mother tell you about, not without having anything nice to say, shut up?
I can see why your friend came a cropper OP and hope he's soon back on two wheels. I can easily picture myself skidding past that cornet. It does seem to be surprising.
However, it's not a trail centre so we need to ride as though there's something like that around every corner... I'm not saying we do, but.....
I'm not sure a letter of complaint is correct - suggestions maybe, an an explanation of what you think the problem is.
I can easily picture myself skidding past that cornet.
I never have any difficulty stopping for ice cream.
windydave13 - exactly my point, big fun boulders that slow you down. Naturally erroded trails have a way of generally getting harder as they get steeper. This fact should be recognised by the people responsible for maintaining the trails.
My points are:
a) Anything outside of a trail centre is not specifically designed for mountain biking and should be ridden accordingly (i.e. moderating your speed according to how far you can see ahead if you don't know the trail). If you choose to ride natural trails then it is your responsibility to do so, and to accept the consequences without apportioning blame elsewhere if you do get it wrong.
b) A single complaint is often all it takes for those responsible to simply tarmac over a trail in the name of safety. While you are possibly right that a more technical, challenging trail might actually be safer due to reduced speeds, the general response to trail safety concerns is to turn them into roads.
makecoldplayhistory - yes you are right, definitely not written with a Daily Mail pen of rage 😉 Just told them what happened, with a link to the video, and my suggestion for improvements on how to build the trail with mountain bikers in mind too.
qtip - we do accept the consequences, which is why I have not in any way, shape or form mentioned litigation. Ride to what's in front of you and it's your fault if you get it wrong.
As for tarmacing, they pretty much have given how smooth the trail is. No it's not a trail centre but it is a new built piece of trail that should take into account all the trail users. As pointed out above older, more naturally erroded trails tend to get harder as they get steeper, and do it in proportion to the steepness of the slope. This trail doesn't. It's smooth until the steepest point, where they then throw in a blind bend and instant step up in difficulty.
From my desk I can safely say I'd make the corner.
Okay, I've had a word with myself and rethought my position on this. If it had been a natural trail then I would stand by my comments but, as you said, this is a repaired section. I haven't ridden the trail before/after repair so cannot comment on the suitability of the repair. I still think that you have to ride 'natural' trails with a particular mindset, and you have to expect things like this might catch you out, but since the issue is with a non-natural part of the trail then maybe it does warrant a letter.
To be honest, I'm not quite sure where I stand on the issue - the more I think about it the more confused I get! The section I crashed on this weekend was on flagstones, so another non-natural trail feature that was presumably put in at some point to avoid some other issue. The reason I crashed though was that I was riding the trail too fast for the conditions, or rather that I'd only ridden the trail once before and didn't know that the flagstones are like ice if wet and I should have taken the line into the ditch next to them. My thought process was not that these flagstones shouldn't have been put in on a section of trail that I might be hitting quite fast, or that if the previous bit of trail had been more technical then I would have natural been going slower and able to change line, but rather that I was an idiot.
Apologies for the whingey idiot comment - painkillers wearing off = grumpy qtip!
A little phrase popped into my head from Roadcraft:
'always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear'
A small bad bend sign may be an idea if it really is a bit naughty though
made me think of the 'gnarly gnarly gnarly' video from a while back
hope the injured rider gets better soon
Thanks for the appology. Although no offence taken, I do ride natural trails expecting them to catch me out.....and I post stuff like this on the Singletrack forum expecting some abuse 😉
'always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear'
Yes, exactly. But you wouldn't expect a newly built road to have a hairpin directly after a hump back bridge, without a sign? An extreme example I know, but you get my meaning.
My point to them is that designing something that can be ridden fast to end in a tight, blind, off camber corner with spikey rocks on the outside isn't the best idea and could have been done better. People make mistakes (hands up who hasn't crashed.....no one??) and the design of this trail IMO helps you makes those mistakes.
It’s a lot easier to ride than it used to be, although I preferred that section when it was bedrock. However, since this has been ‘sanitised’ I can now ride up it, so every cloud. I wouldn't really describe it as dangerous.
However, I admit it did take me by surprise the first time I rode down there after the work had been done.
big fun boulders that slow you down.
guessing other trail users wouldnt appreciate those though.
Probably a poor enalogy (sp) but
But you wouldn't expect a newly built road to have a hairpin directly after a hump back bridge, without a sign
sounds like you want them to put up a gert big sign...
I also wouldnt be flat out going into a hump back bridge without being able to see what was on the other side whether i was in a car or a bike!
OK, not the best analogy but I still stand byb my point that this part of the trail could have been designed better.
agreed, FWIW i think you've done the right thing if only to make them think about all potential users of the track in future
Cut a trail in next to it.
Inherently poor design is inherently poor design - if they build something like big squared edge ditches across the path then it's going to cause accidents.
the 'you should have seen it' train of thought is foolish, nobody would say that if you dug a ditch across the Middle of the road and told everyone who drove into it that it was their own fault for not going slower.
You need to report the injury to the council, then look at your options regards litigation, as if you don't then this type of thing will only go on.
You need to report the injury to the council, then look at your options regards litigation, as if you don't then this type of thing will only go on.
Really ❓ I hope your taking the mickey as in my opinion silly things like this is where the whole blame/suing culture has come from and most like they'll see the easiest option to ban cyclists "for the own safety"
Yes, I feel sorry for the guy who broke his wrist, but that is taking it to a whole new level
I still don;t understand why the person with the camera, having seen the issue, didn't stop and advise other riders to slow down rather than just carrying on?
wwaswas - Because the bloke in front of me had stopped and was there to advise the other riders to slow down? My thinking was that it would be better to give the others coming behind me a clear line around the corner rather than present yet another obstacle??
And then I stopped and got on this form to inform you, who may be next down this trail, that you need to slow down???
My words of wisdom are simply, familiarity breeds contempt! As has been said ride to the speed of what you can see and stop/avoid on a new trail for certain, with familiarity you can again build speed/contempt but safe in the knowledge you will know the consequences of where you will end up!
But be honest now, we don't all ride at a speed that we can stop in. We make a call based on what we *expect* to be round the next corner based on what came before, what was there yesterday, what a trail a bit like it rode last year, whatever. And sometimes you just let off the brakes and go for it. That's part of the fun.
If someone's going to improve or sanitise a trail they have a duty to think about all the likely users on foot, bike, horse, Landrover, etc. Flattyres up the top thinks that didn't happen. He was there and he generally knows what he's talking about.
Maybe ask if they could put a high banked berm on that bend to help you carry your speed round the corner a bit
Inherently poor design is inherently poor design - if they build something like big squared edge ditches across the path then it's going to cause accidents.
As far as I can tell the OP's upset about the corner, not the water bar which was the main thing that jumped out at me as being a bit off.
[i]Because the bloke in front of me had stopped and was there to advise the other riders to slow down?[/i]
fair enough.
but tbh if someone stood there shouting 'slow down' wasn't able to make people slow down enough to make the corner then they were going too fast.
It could have been a baby robin on the trail.
wrecker - Member
Cut a trail in next to it.
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST
enduro line ftw
This isn't necessarily a gnar warrior only problem. Jasmine in the flowery dress with a small dog and baguette in her bar mounted basket, or Dad "racing" little Tarquin, all could just as easily be caught out by a deceptive corner.
Local trail to me and they have done a fine job in my opinion was a washed out mess before and the other trail users 4X4 struggled to clear. Still fun to ride at speed with the necessary handling skills and I can now ride up from the other side 🙂 That area gets lots of water!
I still don;t understand why the person with the camera, having seen the issue, didn't stop and [s]advise other riders to slow down[/s] film the carnage rather than just carrying on?
Fixed.
Lol 5thElefant, light relief always appreciated 😉
Postierich - I understand why the repair was made don't have a problem with it on the whole, especially as you point out it now makes a good climb. I personally find the tight cobbled bends quite fun to ride. Just, as said previously, I don't find that particluar tight, blind corner a very suitable way to end a long, steep straight section, given the jaggedy rocks of death on the outside.
wwaswas - yes, he didn't make the corner therefore he was going too fast, which is why I find ninfan's idea of 'where there's blame there's a claim' totally wrong.
However, a berm would be nice 😉
Just spotted this thread. As a local with many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot! I could recount several similar stories to yours, some ending unconscious in the stream.
There's a few more trail repairs dotted about the lakes that have a similar effect. Typically they are really smooth, lure you up to speed and then go off-camber/loose gravel/big drop suddenly. Sticks pass has one, so does the Sprinkling tarn descent.
No problem with them personally, it's part of the adventure!
skipped a few of the replies but would this help?
[img] 
[/img]
Trail, corner, not built up, eyes open?
I have just sent my first email of complaint about a trail
"first"? planning a campaign?
hope the guy with the injury recovers soon ...at the back and failed to negotiate an obstacle because didn't see it 🙄
you lost me on this one
Sort of reminds me of a newish bridge on a local cyclepath: cyclepath makes a 90-degree left on one side due to straight ahead being a flight of steps down to the pavement, after a blind hump. Needless to say some old granny hucked the steps. Two weeks later there were concrete bollards and more signs than you could shake a stick at.
How fast are these people riding? Obviously at 110% their ability.
The 'compete/must keep up with my fast mate syndrome'?
Take it easy FFS.
[i] many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot[/i]
maybe the MR people could talk to the local ROW officers and ask for change? It'll carry a lot more weight than some random mtber making the same request.
I know I've been critical of the rider involved but I am sympathetic and if changes could be made to either advise (consciously or through trail design) riders that there was a hidden obstacle ahead then it can't be a bad thing.
A little phrase popped into my head from Roadcraft:'always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear'
As a lifelong motorbike rider, this is how I choose to ride a mountain bike. It's not fast, but it keeps you safe*.
(* that's my excuse for being so slow anyway! 😉 )
Hope your friend is okay. But it just sounds like riding beyond the trail conditions. If its a blind corner you shouldn't be going full speed round it.
Council will probably discuss banning mtbs from the trail as that would be easiest course of action, so because you fell off you may find you loose the trail, and potentially others for good. Tbh I'm with the you should always ride within your abilities. One of my worst crashes was on a trail I rode a couple of times a week and on a bend a tree had fallen at head height. That hurt. And no I didn't send an email of complaint. I chalked it to experience an bad luck
Would be interesting to see how you would have not run over a small dog or child had they been coming up the trail.
Most notable for me (own experiences)- locally I've fallen off and (hurt fairly badly) here in the Peak District:
Rushop Edge - rotor cuff. This bridleway is now in a tussle to be utterly sanitised due to safety/access concerns.
The Beast- busted knee.
You could argue that a bridleway should be rideable by all - so Beast would be smoothed out.
In no ****ing way would I send an email to the council on the above.
If your email 'works' Stile End will (in the future) have a straight line inserted so its still smoothish and straight the whole way.
Is that what you want? Its the only real solution to middle aged men riding fast to keep up/show they are 'core'.
If revisions were made to make all trails safer it'd remove an element of fun for more competent riders. As I've said I've gone into that section twice- both times I was cautious (even though the second time I knew it was there). No ones going to pay my mortgage for me.
Maybe it's just me ?
I really do have every sympathy with anyone who injures themselves as a result of riding.
But. This is the Lake District. Serious erosion of paths and so on, requires remedial work, drainage needs to work to prevent further erosion.
Things change on routes, either naturally, like fallen trees, washed out trails from flood, frozen wheel grabbing ruts in winter, but that's what we need to deal with.
Sometimes things get changed, like they have here.
It's no blue graded trail centre.
It's a bit like saying that the parked car I drove into this morning wasn't there yesterday.
As for talk of litigation ! ?
^Good points. (Most) Trail centres have predictability built in.
[quote=cakefacesmallblock said]
But. This is the Lake District. Serious erosion of paths and so on, requires remedial work,
Absolutely. But this is poorly thought through remedial work which has now become (or is becoming) an accident blackspot (see the Mountain Rescue comments above) and has resulted with someone ending up unconscious in a stream.
Should we just leave that as-is and shrug our shoulders ?
Realistically, what could they (or we) do to remedy it/reduce the risk?
Create a straight line? Given the drop, I think that just puts the problem into the next corner with the waterbar. And most riders would stick to the wider track thinking that it will be easier.
Signage? Not ideal, even close to the valley bottom.
Feature/grading of rock to slow riders on the approach? Not sure that anything short of a boulder field would slow down some folk on modern AM bikes on the approach.
Place a fence/banking to stop folk reaching the streambed? Maybe, or it could inflict injury/launch a rider into orbit.
I'm not a trail designer but if there's a hazard ahead then I would imagine slowing people down somehow would be the best course of action.
More to the point, perhaps. It evidently is rideable as the video clearly shows, by someone who knows the trail, those who don't, often those following who haven't ridden it before, can easily get caught out. That, however, is mountain biking.
Very often we will find ourselves with newbies or non locals riding where we do regularly , there are a few ' techy' bits and some which ( and I'm no gnar freak, not at my age ! ) , conditions dependent, I'll get of and walk ( ! ) at .
Sure, sometimes , with a group, someone will know the route and maybe shout up ' watch yer selves just after the stream / fallen tree' or whatever.
Create a straight line?
Yes- then it ruins it for the vast majority of riders who want more than straight lines in their riding.
If all bridelways were made to match all levels of riders ability we'd start switching to other stuff.
[quote=martinhutch dijo]Realistically, what could they (or we) do to remedy it/reduce the risk?
Create a straight line? Given the drop, I think that just puts the problem into the next corner with the waterbar. And most riders would stick to the wider track thinking that it will be easier.
I think the problem here (from what was said above) is that the track leading into this corner was straightened when it was rebuilt. It actually needs to be *LESS* straight on the lead-in, so as to control speed
Trail Centre and Bridleway, not the same. Why does a ROW need features to control speed? That's what experience, sense and brakes are for (I'm in old man mode, I know). I'm suprised that 'trail design' is coming into a discussion about a bridleway - they're not made for bikes, we just have a right to use them.