[Closed] Stile End byway repair is dangerous

agreed, FWIW i think you've done the right thing if only to make them think about all potential users of the track in future

Cut a trail in next to it.

Inherently poor design is inherently poor design - if they build something like big squared edge ditches across the path then it's going to cause accidents.

the 'you should have seen it' train of thought is foolish, nobody would say that if you dug a ditch across the Middle of the road and told everyone who drove into it that it was their own fault for not going slower.

You need to report the injury to the council, then look at your options regards litigation, as if you don't then this type of thing will only go on.

You need to report the injury to the council, then look at your options regards litigation, as if you don't then this type of thing will only go on.

Really ❓ I hope your taking the mickey as in my opinion silly things like this is where the whole blame/suing culture has come from and most like they'll see the easiest option to ban cyclists "for the own safety"

Yes, I feel sorry for the guy who broke his wrist, but that is taking it to a whole new level

I still don;t understand why the person with the camera, having seen the issue, didn't stop and advise other riders to slow down rather than just carrying on?

wwaswas - Because the bloke in front of me had stopped and was there to advise the other riders to slow down? My thinking was that it would be better to give the others coming behind me a clear line around the corner rather than present yet another obstacle??

And then I stopped and got on this form to inform you, who may be next down this trail, that you need to slow down???

My words of wisdom are simply, familiarity breeds contempt! As has been said ride to the speed of what you can see and stop/avoid on a new trail for certain, with familiarity you can again build speed/contempt but safe in the knowledge you will know the consequences of where you will end up!

But be honest now, we don't all ride at a speed that we can stop in. We make a call based on what we *expect* to be round the next corner based on what came before, what was there yesterday, what a trail a bit like it rode last year, whatever. And sometimes you just let off the brakes and go for it. That's part of the fun.

If someone's going to improve or sanitise a trail they have a duty to think about all the likely users on foot, bike, horse, Landrover, etc. Flattyres up the top thinks that didn't happen. He was there and he generally knows what he's talking about.

Maybe ask if they could put a high banked berm on that bend to help you carry your speed round the corner a bit

Inherently poor design is inherently poor design - if they build something like big squared edge ditches across the path then it's going to cause accidents.

As far as I can tell the OP's upset about the corner, not the water bar which was the main thing that jumped out at me as being a bit off.

[i]Because the bloke in front of me had stopped and was there to advise the other riders to slow down?[/i]

fair enough.

but tbh if someone stood there shouting 'slow down' wasn't able to make people slow down enough to make the corner then they were going too fast.

It could have been a baby robin on the trail.

wrecker - Member
Cut a trail in next to it.
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

enduro line ftw

This isn't necessarily a gnar warrior only problem. Jasmine in the flowery dress with a small dog and baguette in her bar mounted basket, or Dad "racing" little Tarquin, all could just as easily be caught out by a deceptive corner.

Local trail to me and they have done a fine job in my opinion was a washed out mess before and the other trail users 4X4 struggled to clear. Still fun to ride at speed with the necessary handling skills and I can now ride up from the other side 🙂 That area gets lots of water!

I still don;t understand why the person with the camera, having seen the issue, didn't stop and [s]advise other riders to slow down[/s] film the carnage rather than just carrying on?

Lol 5thElefant, light relief always appreciated 😉

Postierich - I understand why the repair was made don't have a problem with it on the whole, especially as you point out it now makes a good climb. I personally find the tight cobbled bends quite fun to ride. Just, as said previously, I don't find that particluar tight, blind corner a very suitable way to end a long, steep straight section, given the jaggedy rocks of death on the outside.

wwaswas - yes, he didn't make the corner therefore he was going too fast, which is why I find ninfan's idea of 'where there's blame there's a claim' totally wrong.

However, a berm would be nice 😉

Just spotted this thread. As a local with many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot! I could recount several similar stories to yours, some ending unconscious in the stream.
There's a few more trail repairs dotted about the lakes that have a similar effect. Typically they are really smooth, lure you up to speed and then go off-camber/loose gravel/big drop suddenly. Sticks pass has one, so does the Sprinkling tarn descent.
No problem with them personally, it's part of the adventure!

skipped a few of the replies but would this help?
[img] [/img]
Trail, corner, not built up, eyes open?

I have just sent my first email of complaint about a trail

"first"? planning a campaign?

hope the guy with the injury recovers soon ...at the back and failed to negotiate an obstacle because didn't see it 🙄

you lost me on this one

Sort of reminds me of a newish bridge on a local cyclepath: cyclepath makes a 90-degree left on one side due to straight ahead being a flight of steps down to the pavement, after a blind hump. Needless to say some old granny hucked the steps. Two weeks later there were concrete bollards and more signs than you could shake a stick at.

How fast are these people riding? Obviously at 110% their ability.

The 'compete/must keep up with my fast mate syndrome'?

Take it easy FFS.

[i] many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot[/i]

maybe the MR people could talk to the local ROW officers and ask for change? It'll carry a lot more weight than some random mtber making the same request.

I know I've been critical of the rider involved but I am sympathetic and if changes could be made to either advise (consciously or through trail design) riders that there was a hidden obstacle ahead then it can't be a bad thing.

A little phrase popped into my head from Roadcraft:

'always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear'

As a lifelong motorbike rider, this is how I choose to ride a mountain bike. It's not fast, but it keeps you safe*.

(* that's my excuse for being so slow anyway! 😉 )

Hope your friend is okay. But it just sounds like riding beyond the trail conditions. If its a blind corner you shouldn't be going full speed round it.

Council will probably discuss banning mtbs from the trail as that would be easiest course of action, so because you fell off you may find you loose the trail, and potentially others for good. Tbh I'm with the you should always ride within your abilities. One of my worst crashes was on a trail I rode a couple of times a week and on a bend a tree had fallen at head height. That hurt. And no I didn't send an email of complaint. I chalked it to experience an bad luck

Would be interesting to see how you would have not run over a small dog or child had they been coming up the trail.

Most notable for me (own experiences)- locally I've fallen off and (hurt fairly badly) here in the Peak District:

Rushop Edge - rotor cuff. This bridleway is now in a tussle to be utterly sanitised due to safety/access concerns.

The Beast- busted knee.

You could argue that a bridleway should be rideable by all - so Beast would be smoothed out.

In no ****ing way would I send an email to the council on the above.

If your email 'works' Stile End will (in the future) have a straight line inserted so its still smoothish and straight the whole way.

Is that what you want? Its the only real solution to middle aged men riding fast to keep up/show they are 'core'.

If revisions were made to make all trails safer it'd remove an element of fun for more competent riders. As I've said I've gone into that section twice- both times I was cautious (even though the second time I knew it was there). No ones going to pay my mortgage for me.

Maybe it's just me ?
I really do have every sympathy with anyone who injures themselves as a result of riding.
But. This is the Lake District. Serious erosion of paths and so on, requires remedial work, drainage needs to work to prevent further erosion.
Things change on routes, either naturally, like fallen trees, washed out trails from flood, frozen wheel grabbing ruts in winter, but that's what we need to deal with.
Sometimes things get changed, like they have here.
It's no blue graded trail centre.
It's a bit like saying that the parked car I drove into this morning wasn't there yesterday.
As for talk of litigation ! ?

^Good points. (Most) Trail centres have predictability built in.

[quote=cakefacesmallblock said]
But. This is the Lake District. Serious erosion of paths and so on, requires remedial work,

Absolutely. But this is poorly thought through remedial work which has now become (or is becoming) an accident blackspot (see the Mountain Rescue comments above) and has resulted with someone ending up unconscious in a stream.

Should we just leave that as-is and shrug our shoulders ?

Realistically, what could they (or we) do to remedy it/reduce the risk?

Create a straight line? Given the drop, I think that just puts the problem into the next corner with the waterbar. And most riders would stick to the wider track thinking that it will be easier.

Signage? Not ideal, even close to the valley bottom.

Feature/grading of rock to slow riders on the approach? Not sure that anything short of a boulder field would slow down some folk on modern AM bikes on the approach.

Place a fence/banking to stop folk reaching the streambed? Maybe, or it could inflict injury/launch a rider into orbit.

I'm not a trail designer but if there's a hazard ahead then I would imagine slowing people down somehow would be the best course of action.

More to the point, perhaps. It evidently is rideable as the video clearly shows, by someone who knows the trail, those who don't, often those following who haven't ridden it before, can easily get caught out. That, however, is mountain biking.
Very often we will find ourselves with newbies or non locals riding where we do regularly , there are a few ' techy' bits and some which ( and I'm no gnar freak, not at my age ! ) , conditions dependent, I'll get of and walk ( ! ) at .
Sure, sometimes , with a group, someone will know the route and maybe shout up ' watch yer selves just after the stream / fallen tree' or whatever.

Create a straight line?

Yes- then it ruins it for the vast majority of riders who want more than straight lines in their riding.

If all bridelways were made to match all levels of riders ability we'd start switching to other stuff.

[quote=martinhutch dijo]Realistically, what could they (or we) do to remedy it/reduce the risk?
Create a straight line? Given the drop, I think that just puts the problem into the next corner with the waterbar. And most riders would stick to the wider track thinking that it will be easier.

I think the problem here (from what was said above) is that the track leading into this corner was straightened when it was rebuilt. It actually needs to be *LESS* straight on the lead-in, so as to control speed

Trail Centre and Bridleway, not the same. Why does a ROW need features to control speed? That's what experience, sense and brakes are for (I'm in old man mode, I know). I'm suprised that 'trail design' is coming into a discussion about a bridleway - they're not made for bikes, we just have a right to use them.

I'd extend the stone setts further uphill around the corner and put in a decent sized water bar/hump so it's obvious that things are going to change.

But at that point on the track things are starting to get steeper so you should be expecting things to change in some way. I'd only be going quickly if I could see the corner *after* the one in front of me.

One of the videos shows the rider turning a corner to find a gate in the way, if you were going full speed what would you do then? Natural/organic trails haven't been [b]designed[/b] with any group of users in mind, well certainly not leisure users, so while keeping up speed/momentum is the ideal you have to temper that with the realities of other users; people walking/riding in the opposite direction; cows stood in the middle of the track chewing hay; etc.

Council will probably discuss banning mtbs from the trail

You could argue that a bridleway should be rideable by all

If all bridelways were made to match all levels of riders ability we'd start switching to other stuff

Why does a ROW need features to control speed?

But be honest now, we don't all ride at a speed that we can stop in.

*haha

Leave aside the politics..

Look at the cost, lets say £8,000 for every rider who has to be dragged out of there and cared for until they can get back to work.

Creating a few rumble strips before the corner is looking like good value to me!!

Creating a few rumble strips

Donk, I'd agree it would be good if its becoming a drain on mtr resources as mentioned above, but not due to accidents alone. Not that I don't care, just think the only responsibility is with the rider. If we said that bridleway maintenance includes responsibility to provide 'safe' trails for mtbs then for me that's going too far, how is that judged? I expect a lawyer could win a claim here but the law and what's right aren't always the same. Its not a trail centre, simply a place we have a right to use with due care. Just my op tho.

nbt - I think the problem here (from what was said above) is that the track leading into this corner was straightened when it was rebuilt. It actually needs to be *LESS* straight on the lead-in, so as to control speed

Excatly my point. While this is not a mtb centre trail it is a recently redesigned trail, which IMO has not taken mountain bikers into account as a user group (again). No, the ROW network shouldn't be designed specifically for us but we are a legitimate user group, so or needs should be address along with everyone else's. My point to those responsible for the Lakes ROW network was that it needed more corners, not less. This would make it safer and more interseting.

thekettle - As a local with many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot! I could recount several similar stories to yours, some ending unconscious in the stream

The local Mountain Rescue noting that this corner is 'becoming' a mtb accident black spot kind of proves my point. This corner didn't exist before the redesign. So it seems they have built something that is condusive to accidents. Yes, ride to what's ahead....I think I've covered that point in numerous previous posts but people make mistakes and this corner doesn't help matters. Putting in another tight corner that is visible above this problematical one was my suggestion.

was it actually the local MRT?

"thekettle - Member
Just spotted this thread. As a local with many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot! I could recount several similar stories to yours, some ending unconscious in the stream."

would like to think the MRT would simply encourage riding to the conditions

Not always no. Have had issues myself in the past. Dunno how much this trail is ridden but I was bombing along the wide flat double track and it all got interesting very quickly, managed to ride it out but it was a bit squeaky bum.

That descent is something else when you come into it at speed and when I did it first time I just hung on and managed to get to the bottom in on piece. It was somewhat unforgiving on a hardtail!

Are things really, really different in the Lakes from how things are round my way, or is anyone else reading this thread and scratching their heads with all these statements about "trail design" and what the "designers" did to the 'trail' when it was repaired?

If you want designed trails, go to a trail centre. If you want to ride natural then don't complain if the trails aren't "designed" how you'd like them.

What's next? Complaining they haven't been gritted when it's icy?

And imo anyone suggesting, even in jest, any sort of litigation* following an injury sustained while mountain biking on bridleways or similar should be banned from the sport, and all websites associated with it, immediately - this is clearly not the sport for you - maybe try golf?

*exceptions may be needed for people actively trying to injure peeps with obstacles, piano wire etc.