[Closed] Some of your favourite Scottish trails could be under threat - Core Paths Plan

So a plan to maintain and repair badly eroded paths is a threat to paths meaning they could be lost?

I agree that all too often path "improvements" make them pretty boring for us, but there are other users, eg wheelchairs, elderly walkers, etc, and there's plenty more Scotland to ride.

An example of a great trail due to be 'improved' (ie turned into a 7ft wide grey road if it's the same as Aberdeen council) is the Ciaran Path, MBRs favourite natural trail.

As far as the WW1 POW camp, which is less than a kilometre from the village IIRC. They are hardly bulldozing the whole route.

Did you not read the bit where he said what they did to his local path TJ?

I agree that all too often path "improvements" make them pretty boring for us, but there are other users, eg wheelchairs, elderly walkers, etc, and there's plenty more Scotland to ride.

I personally think it's madness to start saying we have to make the great outdoors nice and safe and easy to walk around. I'm generally all for disabled access etc but do we really have to sanitise the countryside.

We've already lost a great trail in the Aberdeen council area.

We have? Where?

The core paths network is a few of the most important and heavily used paths being maintained and repaired. Its not the end of the world. One persons technical rockfest is anothers eroded mess.

Heavily engineered paths will mellow and blend in with the scenery in time.

this will only apply to a small % of paths anyway.

Get involved and try to get your voice heard but don't be hysterical about it.

I think that if we have the resources to build new paths and the space exists, we should build the flat easily traversible paths next to the already existing ones.

No point in improving something to make it accessible to new users when it is detrimental to the already existing users.

There are plenty of pavements for people who would like to go for a nice easy walk.

Maintenance of trails is great, but the governments and their underling lackies are so out of touch, trusting them not to **** this up then shrug their shoulders when they do, is not something I would be willing too!

Improvement does not necessarily mean ruining it for MTB'ers. In heavily populated areas they may put in "grey motorways" because of the volume of traffic but in the more remote areas they are more likely to be small paths with water bars, and use any natural rocks. I can think of loads of built paths that are brilliant to ride and are much better than the eroded, boggy mess that they would be otherwise

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Environment/Countryside/16328/5612/core-paths

Or to sum it up

"Core paths must cater for everyone, [b]including those with disabilities[/b]. In drawing up their core paths plans access authorities must have special regard to all those people with disabilities who seek to exercise their access rights."

I think it's great that someone with disabilities is able to enjoy the countryside. If that makes a short bit of track boring, well this is Scotland, there's heaps more. It's not as if we are losing something.

Maybe when you're old and frail, or your body is wrecked from too much gnarly riding, and your family can take you to the places in the mountains you used to enjoy, you'll appreciate why we need disabled access too.

You might expect that highland council would be slightly more in tune with the aesthetics and sensitivities of finishing paths than some others! Indeed here is a quote from Highland Council's core paths webpages:

Often these paths will already be in use and they can comprise many different sorts of paths ranging from tracks worn into natural ground to high-specification constructed paths.

There are a few things to note.

- there is no prescribed standard for the surfacing of core paths (I believe there may be standards for the marking / signage / gates etc?)

- the council will have the right BUT NOT the duty to maintain core paths.

My local authority's plans are much more detailed - they describe each path, why it should be included, where remedial work is needed or might be needed in the future etc. I assume Highland Council will do the same if they are talking about spending serious money - especially in the current climate. A quick look at the size and scale of the routes presented across the council area suggests there is no way that they could all be upgraded to "wheelchair grade". Tollie's path (equally as "unridable" as Ciaran path is also in the list for anyone getting is a tiz - that was just from a couple of clicks about).

However I'm in general agreement with TJ - if you are not happy by all means talk to the local access forum and the access officers - but it would probably be best to understand what Highland Council believe "Core Paths" means. I suspect a few signs, maps etc and possibly even more cycle friendly gates in places!

gonefishing

i assume he means the huge wide grey horrible thing up to the masts at tyrebagger/elrick

I worked on producing the Edinburgh Core Paths Plan so know a bit about this. I think the OP has got the wrong end of the stick and needs to read a bit more before getting upset and posting.

I can't see where it says the Ciaran Path is going to be replaced with a 7ft road because of the core paths plan?

CPP are there to identify and protect our most important paths.

Edinburgh dwellers, who have had a CPP in place for several years now, will note there have been no changes whatsoever to any of the identified paths as a result of the CPP, apart from their increased recognition and identification in the planning process to protect them in the future. There aren't even any signs saying core path.

As part of the process LA's scope the condition of paths and need for repairs etc as part of the plan so reference can be made in the future, and access for all users is something that is important too, not just gnar mtbers.

Given the financial climate facing LAs I doubt turning remote hill paths into 7ft wide tracks is going to be very likely anyway, the cost of producing the CPP as it is pretty high.

i assume he means the huge wide grey horrible thing up to the masts at tyrebagger/elrick

Oh yeah I forgot about that one. It's been a wee while since I rode there. From what I recall, I wouldn't even want to walk there now.

i assume he means the huge wide grey horrible thing up to the masts at tyrebagger/elrick

Yep... we lost a fun path when they did that... but who knows what the trail fairies will "find" to replace it

Win some, lose some, it's all the same to me.

+1 for Messiah
Its a shame but it will come good again in time.

As for 'win some' there are already some good diversions in place. you just have to open your eyes and not just follow the same old trail that most riders do.

messiah - Member

i assume he means the huge wide grey horrible thing up to the masts at tyrebagger/elrick

Yep... we lost a fun path when they did that... but who knows what the trail fairies will "find" to replace it

Win some, lose some, it's all the same to me.

There is another section of single track coming down the other face of the hill, that is awesome.

But in saying that, if I don't like Elrick hill, I could always ride Kirkhill, Countesswells, Scolty, Bennachie; all within a very short distance of Aberdeen.

There are plenty of people out there that can't even dream of riding a bike due to disability. Giving up the odd section of trail here and there, so wheelchair users can get into the countryside, is a small price to pay for the freedom that you have.

Plus, as bigjim says, it's not as if the whole of the country side is going to be turned into a gravel driveway.

I can't see them doing anything intensive to the Ciaran Path - it just isn't cost effective to substantially reinforce a path that essentially leads to nowhere. There is a faint track to the Ciaran bothy and eventually Loch Treig, but very few people actually use it, compared to the other core path proposals. The WHW I can completely agree with, you can see more people every few minutes on that in sections than you do in an entire day on the Ciaran Path.

the only way to stop these ****s is to burn their jcb's we did that, three diggers later they gave up 🙂

Are you serious, or are you 12?

Blimey that got some quick responses. 🙂

The main parts of my initial post were
1. 'Find out what you're local council is up to before it's too late!'
If you do nothing then some of your favourite singletrack could disappear.
and 2 (j_me, poly). 'An example' of a great trail due to be 'improved' is the Ciaran Path.
As I said, 'We've already lost a great trail in the Aberdeen council area.'

'epicyclo
I agree that all too often path "improvements" make them pretty boring for us, but there are other users, eg wheelchairs, elderly walkers, etc, and there's plenty more Scotland to ride.'

I appreciate that but in this area no one was representing mtb. There has to be a compromise. What about your closest or most accessable trails? see 1.

TandemJeremy
The core paths network is a few of the most important and heavily used paths being maintained and repaired. (Not true in this area)
Heavily engineered paths will mellow and blend in with the scenery in time.
(In this area, 7ft wide grey paths?)
this will only apply to a small % of paths anyway.
(Probably your favourite ones, see 1.)
Get involved and try to get your voice heard but don't be hysterical about it.
(No ones getting hysterical TJ but I am trying to get MTB represented in this area with success so far, you?)

'CaptainMainwaring - Member
Improvement does not necessarily mean ruining it for MTB'ers. In heavily populated areas they may put in "grey motorways" because of the volume of traffic but in the more remote areas they are more likely to be small paths with water bars, and use any natural rocks. I can think of loads of built paths that are brilliant to ride and are much better than the eroded, boggy mess that they would be otherwise'

My experience does not support this view unfortunately. see 1.

bigjim - Member
I worked on producing the Edinburgh Core Paths Plan so know a bit about this. I think the OP has got the wrong end of the stick and needs to read a bit more before getting upset and posting.

(I'm not 'upset and posting'. This is a notice to you all FYI, what you do about it is up to you. I am now involved in any future core paths plans in this area)

I can't see where it says the Ciaran Path is going to be replaced with a 7ft road because of the core paths plan?'

(This is an example, see 1.)

gonefishin, trail_rat, messiah
Yeah, thats the one. Used to be a great singletrack downhill from the top of Elrick hill, now a 7ft wide grey 'road' which in places is far too steep for wheelchair access if that was their plan. The reason for the width was because the plant they used needed it, JCB probably.

I'm now in touch with the Core Paths committee as is the chairman of one of our biggest mtb groups in the area. They appreciated our comments regarding the 'improvement' of this path and realised that it was inappropriate for such a rural area.

Only support from Grum and kaesae, thanks guys. Everyone else is quite happy to potentially loose their local trails or have them 'improved'. I'm quite shocked by that and the generally slightly hostile response from most of you.

This is a FYI post. I dont give a $%^& if you loose your local trails. But at least find out if there's anything planned and your happy about it, rather that than moan after they're gone. It's up to you.

AlasdairMc - Member
Are you serious, or are you 12?

Did you beat up the JCB drivers with your keyboard as well?

I like how you think you are the one policing the countryside, yet it's just petty vandalism...

(

No ones getting hysterical TJ but I am trying to get MTB represented in this area with success so far, you?

There simply is no possible chance of the Ciaran path being turned into a 7 ft wide level path. Don't be hysterical.

The slightly hostile response is because you have misunderstood the basics of this and have a very narrow minded attitude. And yes - in a few years time the 7 ft wide sanitised path will have blended in to the scenery - I have see this happen many times

Core paths is about access for all - not preserving things for a very small group. Its about sharing and widening access not elitism

I completely agree with TJ, and think that core paths can actually be beneficial for mountain bikers in general. If a section of path is reinforced for the benefit of all, it keeps the other paths quieter and in better condition.

Charming TJ. Are all your posts this hostile or are you having a bad day? Did you read and understand the initial post or my response to your comments?

I like how you think you are the one policing the countryside, yet it's just petty vandalism...

Just skimmed all this but can't see any specific reference or links to the proposed improvements to the Ciaran Path? Is there a design and budget in circulation? Has funding been approved and released?

Not really in the least bit concerned about Cooncils and others beefing up eroded trails and hill paths. The vast majority of hill path remediation I've seen in Scotland (i.e by Cooncils, SNH, JMT, Cairngorm partnership etc etc etc) has been done very sensitively.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the many Estate owners who have variously bulldozed old Stalkers paths, created new ones for shooting etc (with no real thought given to design, the environment, or aesthetics) and worst of all those that have jumped the gun on Windfarm developments.

Yup read and understood both. Sorry if you found it offensive.

I simply strongly disagree with you for the reasons I stated. To say that repairing and maintaining a few core paths with the aim of improving and maintaining access for all is destroying mountainbike trails is not in the spirit of right to roam and access for all.

You are right to get involved and to help make mountainbikers voices heard - I a doing this as well.

If you are going to take part in CPP consultation I'd suggest a more measured and less 'daily mail' approach if you want to get taken seriously. if you go in all angry, NIMBY and guns blazing you are doing youreslf more harm than if you go in as a sensible representative of a group calmly representing your groups informed concerns rather than a personal and emotional response. Whilst all representations have to be considered and resolved in the CPP process, you have a chance to make your concerns raised and listened to more clearly if you are sensible in your approach. I'm not sure I would want you representing me as a mtber if I lived there based on what you've written here for example.

the only way to stop these **** is to burn their jcb's we did that, three diggers later they gave up

Wow, thats a great approach, where do you live?

I am all for Core Path network. Remember this is just a map of paths, it does not meant any get repaired, changed or torn up. Some improvements are great but no council has bundles to spend on remote paths when they need the cash for councilers junkets!

'To say that repairing and maintaining a few core paths with the aim of improving and maintaining access for all is destroying mountainbike trails is not in the spirit of right to roam and access for all.'

I've never said that, nor would I.

There are many core paths in the area around Aberdeen which have affected some of our trails and that's fine, access for all, great, I support that. But some have been built in more rural areas where you would not expect a 7ft wide path. The people who use these trails drive there and have suitable footwear etc and enjoy the 'country side'. They don't want the Council to change it. There are still very steep gradients on these paths which you simply couldn't push a wheelchair up so they have not succeeded in their aim of access for all anyway.

bigjim - Member
If you are going to take part in CPP consultation I'd suggest a more measured and less 'daily mail' approach if you want to get taken seriously. if you go in all angry, NIMBY and guns blazing you are doing youreslf more harm than if you go in as a sensible representative of a group calmly representing your groups informed concerns rather than a personal and emotional response. Whilst all representations have to be considered and resolved in the CPP process, you have a chance to make your concerns raised and listened to more clearly if you are sensible in your approach. I'm not sure I would want you representing me as a mtber if I lived there based on what you've written here for example.

It's ok Jim I'm quite calm thanks. I really don't understand why you'd think otherwise. Definately not 'Daily Mail, all angry, NIMBY and guns blazing'. 🙂

So your argument is with Aberdeen council who have improved paths in away you personally don't like? Nothing to do with core paths or the Cieran path then?

Get involved and help make the MTBers voice heard but be reasonable and moderate and positive

edit -You do come over in this thread as very selfish shouty and hysterical. Maybe not as you intended ( this tends to happen to me as well)

OP - I've just looked at the Aberdeen CPP site, do you know the plan was adopted in 2009 and you've missed the consultation period?

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the many Estate owners who have variously bulldozed old Stalkers paths, created new ones for shooting etc (with no real thought given to design, the environment, or aesthetics) and worst of all those that have jumped the gun on Windfarm developments.

Whoah there. Unfashionable as it may be, you have to have some sympathy for the estate owners. Yes I know lots of the keepers can be miserable, rude etc (and some even illegally kill raptors), but look at it from their point of view.

It is very, very difficult to make a Scottish estate break even let alone make a profit. It's a business and they have to get what return they can. If that includes upgrading tracks so they can take paying clients into the hills it's part of business. They spend huge amounts of money maintaining tracks (which we happily use), watercourses, fences and are forced to allow access to everyone.

The very best walkers and MTBers have no impact on their estate, but unfortunately a significant proportion damage trails, leave litter, leave gates open, disturb wildlife, disrupt shoots etc, all of which has remedial cost for the landowner. One example I know of was a mountain bike race which went through an estate. The estate was given no prior notice of it happening, and the large number of riders in a group caused significant erosion to boggy areas of paths and tracks which then had to be repaired at the landowners expense.

So give them a bit of a break and be thankful for good access roads and (mainly) lack of harrassment while they go about their business.

And as for windfarms, they haven't "jumped the gun". The rules for windfarm development are clearly laid out (like them or not) and each application goes through a very public planning process

Capt - the estate roads vary tremendously as do the attitude of the estate owners but some have recently bulldozed huge scars into the landscape - and these will not be estates that are struggling for money as its very expensive to do this.

Edit - the problem is they don't need any sort of planning for this
so there is no system of checks and balances

Wow, thats a great approach, where do you live?

LOL do you happen to work for her majesty the ****?

yea growing up in Cornwall i seen how lots of ENGLISH * have built houses and ruined large sections of it, its not just vandalism its saving the country side and * good fun as well...

Cornwall is part of England. Get over it.

Look TJ and Jim never mind what's going on here, I'm quite happy with the situation now.

TJ please read and understand my posts. My experience is with Core Paths in Aberdeen area. The Ciaran path was merely an EXAMPLE.

I'm now involved with the council regarding future Core Paths in the Aberdeen area and I assure you that I am quite calm about the whole thing.

Firstly don't underestimate what a fit wheelchair user is capable of or even one with a motorised chair.

It is access for [b]all[/b]. We will still have the access, but may be deprived of a few thrills so others can enjoy it too.

As TJ says maybe you are not coming across in the way you intended.

Your point as I see it, is that we should all become involved, and that's a good thing.

LOL do you happen to work for her majesty the ****?

Nope. I think you are going to get this thread locked pretty soon though. You've admitted to burning 3 JCB's so someone might be interested in you somewhere.

TJ, I'm not saying that some of the estate roads are not scars on the landscape - some obviously are.

A highland estate is expensive to buy and run, and I don't believe any estate does much better than break even. Just because the owner may be very well off, that doesn't mean he wants to make a loss on a significant asset. Tracks bulldozed into the hills, unsightly as they may be, are part of developing that business - they don't do it for fun.

In the main though, I was trying to point out that we should have a bit of sympathy for the estate owners whose land and tracks we use at their cost

scottalej

I did read and understand - I suspect tho you came across rather more shouty and hysterical than you intended.

Some of your favourite Scottish trails could be under threat

Not - "Aberdeen has over restored a few bits of path - pity"

I do strongly disagree tho with your basic attitude expressed. I am in favour of core paths, with path repair and restoration. I hate erosion I see everywhere that gets worse by the year and dislike the attitude of the MTBers who like these eroded paths and consider it wrong to repair them

Its good to get involved tho to make the MTBers voice heard. ~Good on you for getting involved