Keyboard tourettes
I can see the EWS ignoring the past years and use 2019 as a fresh start/hard-line from now on. It is a business after all not a governing body.
Yawn ! Drugs in sports who’d have thought it :0
Given then length of time Graves has been in competition across all disciplines it's a shock, the fact it's the 2 guys using the same supplement supplier does make it more interesting from a contamination point of view and will be interesting to see what they put forward on that. I'm sure Jarrod has a lot more on his mind at the moment (well thankfully slightly less in reality)
[quote[the fact it’s the 2 guys using the same supplement supplier does make it more interesting from a contamination point of view
That was one of the first things I thought too. I know Ryno have come out straight away with a full denial, but do thay actually manufacture themselves? A huge amount of fitness product companies either buy in "white label" product and just apply branding, or if they do specify product themselves, use a third party manufacturer.
Playing devil's advocate - the pair are also close friends and former teammates and training partners - potentially making them more likely to share other "programmes"?
Wouldn’t it be simpler to create a class for dopers taking performance enhancing substances?
How would that make things simpler?
Testing of sports nutrition is carried out by these people
https://www.informed-sport.com
100's of products listed as tested....nothing by Ryno Power listed.
Couple of interviews up on PB with Richie & Jared now.
I know that you can't specify where you think it came from, but the obvious connection that people are going to make is that you're both Ryno Power athletes. What would you say to that?
<span class="bold">Richie</span>: Yeah, obviously it doesn't look great for them, but Ryno Power's motto has always been that they have clean substances, and so they shouldn't be brought into this whole situation.
<span class="bold">Richie</span>: I actually haven't at all.
Really? I'd have been straight on the blower to them myself.
There seems to be an impressive amount of transparency with these tests & the results.
A huge amount of fitness product companies either buy in “white label” product and just apply branding, or if they do specify product themselves, use a third party manufacturer.
Even then, the ingredients in the products won't have been isolated or synthesized by the compounders, they'll be coming from other manufacturers and going to multiple compounders.
Well the male official could have identified as a woman official for the afternoon and just done the lot.
Are you really a **** or just identifying as one for the purposes of starting an argument?
Really? I’d have been straight on the blower to them myself.
Only if you weren't fibbing and knew you hadn't knowingly taken anything.
Only if you weren’t fibbing and knew you hadn’t knowingly taken anything.
Or they are running through everything they have to work out what they can.
2 good if lawyer lead interviews there, I hope the full facts do come out there.
Only if you weren’t fibbing and knew you hadn’t knowingly taken anything.
Yeah, that was supposed to be a Jerry Seinfeld "really?".
I actually haven't at all
So his Lawyer did then.
I wonder if there are any of the privateers now wondering if they’re clean
i know a couple of riders who were most definitely under the influence of illegal drugs and still came in the top 30% of the mens category.
i wouldn't mind some of what Rude has been taking. I think for a hobby rider it makes more sense. I don't gt out as often as I would like and wouldn't mind feeling stronger on the ups and more alert on the downs.
You have to roll your eyes a bit when the "contaminated supplement" defence is raised yet again. It's surprising how often contaminated supplements are cited when an adverse test result occurs, yet athletes keep on taking these supplements...
Strict liability applies to the stuff you ingest as a professional athlete, so anyone who is not cheating is taking a big risk in using anything that they are not 110% sure of.
How can you be 100% sure ?
Some supplement companies certify that their products are contaminant free, and tested for substances on the WADA list.
iirc, if wada (or the national body doing the testing) can independently verify the claim of contamination, they will accept that is the source.
The EWS Lifetime doping ban will probably be challenged.
as was the British Olympic Associations
"The British Olympic Association's lifetime ban for drugs cheats has been formally declared unenforceable.
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) have issued a formal ruling that the BOA's by-law does not comply with the world anti-doping code."
Wouldn’t it be simpler to create a class for dopers taking performance enhancing substances?
Default question, at what age would you be happy for your daughter to start doping?
Bertie says, try the beef!
I’ll be here all weak...
i think a class for doping would be good. Just think about all the advances in science we would have when theres some money to be made from making a better human?
but back to this. Its all a bit rubbish. I feel sorry for graves with what hes going through. Although the only suprise ive got is more havent been found out.
are all these supplements etc why we see more people dieing at a young age when they are fit?
but back to this. Its all a bit rubbish. I feel sorry for graves with what hes going through. Although the only suprise ive got is more havent been found out.
It was already said how little testing there was, however being found out, I'm still waiting for the final verdict.
are all these supplements etc why we see more people dieing at a young age when they are fit?
What supplements? What deaths?
lunge
Default question, at what age would you be happy for your daughter to start doping?
She's a singlespeeder, so prefers beer.
How can you be 100% sure ?
You can be pretty close to that if you stick to normal food and stay away from manufactured supplements. Given the number of times that supplements have been blamed for positive tests, I would tend to take manufacturers' claims of purity with a pinch of salt. Alternatively, of course, supplements are just a convenient excuse for deliberate doping.
A class for dopers is a daft idea. People take illegal performance enhancers to gain an advantage over other competitors who are not doping. Why would a cheat choose to give up that advantage and compete in the doping class?
because it then creates an arms race of body enhancing substances.
Alternatively, of course, supplements are just a convenient excuse for deliberate doping.
This, add to the issue that what the athlete takes and what Joey can purchase from the athletes web-link (after all, none of them endorse for free) aren't guaranteed to be the same thing.
Interesting debate on how much benefit supplements actually give an athlete compared to decent diet / rest / training etc. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if half the riders that are sponsored by a supplement company don't actually take the stuff. But it is a convenient alibi if they get pinged for drugs.
With the EWS running under the auspices of the UCI next year, I expect they will use this as an opportunity to remove the lifetime ban for doping offences. A good excuse/reason would be to adopt wholeheartedly the anti-doping rules of the UCI.
I also agree that CAS would probably strike down the lifetime ban, if anyone actually took it that far.
Could this possibly open up the EWS to Lance Armstrong?
Armstrong's ban is from USADA, so it's a ban from all competition not just cycling.
I still find it strange that these guys who are professional athletes are not taking more care as to what is in their systems.
The interview with Richie gives the impression this is the first time there's been testing at EWS, so I'd guess they didn't feel the need to be clued up.
You can be pretty close to that if you stick to normal food and stay away from manufactured supplements
Apart from beef (Canelo Alvarez) and wild boar (Tyson Fury). Allegedly.
With the EWS running under the auspices of the UCI next year, I expect they will use this as an opportunity to remove the lifetime ban for doping offence
This. It would be a huge call to hand lifetime bans to two of the poster boys of EWS. I can see it being swept under the carpet with minimum penalties with the move to UCI being used as justification.
Strict liability applies to the stuff you ingest as a professional athlete, so anyone who is not cheating is taking a big risk in using anything that they are not 110% sure of.
But then you would end up with a two tier system.
Those athletes from federations, sponsors and teams who can afford to run their own testing labs, and those that can't. The supplements themselves are legal (as you can't realistically test for something that's in a normal diet, especially macronutrients), most companies have them independently tested. The question is, how much do you trust the company?
What I find more surprising is, specific supplements are mostly about marginal gains. Two different pre workout drinks might have different ingredients, but fundamentally boil down to stimulants and sugar. Someone somewhere has to go to the length of paying for and adding amphetamines to their product, which costs more than caffeine presumably and then not advertising the fact! It's like selling a Ford Focus, and omitting to mention the base model actually comes with a V8.
The thread discussing it on Vital MTB has a picture of Graves from a few years ago with his various supplement bottles around him. One of the pictured supplements contains one of the substances that popped up in his EWS test
Where can i get all this performance enhancing stuff from? I'm really slow and could do with a boost.
Where can i get all this performance enhancing stuff from? I’m really slow and could do with a boost.
Ryno Power I believe.
Wonder if they're seeing a sales bump after this news?
I've read Graves' interview as well now. He comes over much better than Rude TBF, but does say words to the effect of "never tested positive" and trots out a line about "why would I do it in the twilight of my career?" when road cycling fans know that's EXACTLY when some riders get tempted.
There's also the fact that the substances concerned sound a bit shit, as far as doping products go - so why not just do EPO or whatever if you were gonna risk it all?
In summary... hmmm.
Thisisnotaspoon, the link that I posted a while back indicates that a lot of the supplements that do not list these compounds do in fact contain them.
Thisisnotaspoon, the link that I posted a while back indicates that a lot of the supplements that do not list these compounds do in fact contain them.
That's exactly the point I made.
One pre-workout drink is much the same as the next in terms of benefit (i.e. most of the benefit is in taking a formulated pre workout drink, further discerning a difference between two brands is going to be very difficult).
So why do the manufacturers (or their suppliers) of the supplements add presumably more expensive stuff to them?
If I wanted to make a batch of pre-workout drink and ordered 5kg of caffeine powder from a supplier, I'd expect 5kg of caffeine, or maybe 4.95kg caffeine and 0.05kg impurities like anti caking agents (and for all that to be listed). I wouldn't expect caffeine cut with amphetamines!
It'd be like buying cement powder and finding it diluted with heroin.
I’ve read Graves’ interview as well now. He comes over much better than Rude TBF, but does say words to the effect of “never tested positive” and trots out a line about “why would I do it in the twilight of my career?” when road cycling fans know that’s EXACTLY when some riders get tempted.
He comes across as he does in a lot of interviews, in some ways the response is probably typical of his style which would be it had not ever crossed his mind to get juiced up as he was enjoying what he was doing.
Read a lot of his stuff, in reality comes across as a hard working down to earth guy most of the time. I'd say the main difference between him and Rude's interview is age and experience.
This kind of shit happens in poorly regulated markets, see my comments in the CBD oil thread. QA background here. For all they know their CBD oil might be laced with Ketamine and antipsychotics.
So why do the manufacturers (or their suppliers) of the supplements add presumably more expensive stuff to them?
They're not intentionally adding them. It tends to be cross contamination from production facilities with poor or no quality control. The companies are making products that do contained the banned stuff, then mixing the supposed clean stuff in the same environment
Also, what boardinbob said.
Where can i get all this performance enhancing stuff from? I’m really slow and could do with a boost.
But then you would end up with a two tier system.
Those athletes from federations, sponsors and teams who can afford to run their own testing labs, and those that can’t. The supplements themselves are legal (as you can’t realistically test for something that’s in a normal diet, especially macronutrients), most companies have them independently tested. The question is, how much do you trust the company?
It doesn't matter whether someone declares a substance legal, or how they tested it. T<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">he athlete is responsible for avoiding ingesting proscribed substances. This doesn't just apply to pros; British Cycling make this rule clear to all members, and it's the same in any other sport that operates under proper testing rules. There have been cases where people have eventually been acquitted because they demonstrated that a supplement could be responsible, but you still have to go through the process if you are caught.</span>
To be honest, I don't think it is difficult for most people to avoid problems. As I said earlier, I suspect contaminated supplements is a convenient cover story in a lot of cases, but let's assume it's true. It's happened so many times, in well publicised cases that you would really have to have your head in the sand not to realise that taking these supplements is risky.
As for "two tier systems", show me a sport that doesn't have multiple different tiers of advantage based on how much sponsorship or state support you can muster!
