[Closed] So I want to try road racing + build a bike specifically for this

Ride hard for 20 mins, stop for cake, ride hard for 20 mins, stop for cake, let strava work its magic, and suddenly you look impressively fast 😛

Read the title "Solo to Slough Costa Coffee & back" - I met a friend for coffee (no cake), 0 claims of it being a non stop 😛 It's the only reason I'd ever venture into Slough!!

My usual 53'er with 850ft of climbing is non stop though (bar waiting for the level crossing..which seems to take an AGE) and between 18.5-20mph average.

My fitness is no where near were I'd like it to be for Cat 3 racing though..

My fitness is no where near were I'd like it to be for Cat 3 racing though..

Honestly, looking at the flat portions for heart rate and power output, it's really not bad at all. You need about 4-4.3 W/kg to stay in the front third in a third cat race. That should be your target FTP.

4.0w/kg is my 2017 target.
Weight is down to 86kg now and have an FTP test scheduled for Saturday so I'll be interested to see how far I've got from my 3.4 when I started racing.

With regards to FTP protocol- I'm sure I read about not having your power on display but obviously that's quite hard on Zwift.
I know full well if I have it showing then I will ride at what I'd [b]like[/b] it to be for about 9minutes and limp in absolutely knackered 😀

I'm planning on using the Sufferfest Rubber Glove video instead. If it all goes wrong, at least I'll have got to watch a pretty girl make an omelette on a set of rollers 😆

I think understanding your 'power @ heart rate' (when well rested) can be useful for the first 10-15 minutes. You must have a reasonable idea of your LTHR from your recent races.

If you have a good idea of what power you think you're aiming for, then you can start off at that power and see how your HR reacts over the first 5 minutes. By 5 minutes in, you should have stabilised at your LTHR. At 10-12 minutes, you should start to see it climbing, and by 18 minutes you should be heading up towards your max. If you have anything at all left for a sprint in the last minute, you didn't go hard enough. It should be the most painful struggle of your life to maintain near the average for the last 30 seconds.

Honestly, looking at the flat portions for heart rate and power output, it's really not bad at all. You need about 4-4.3 W/kg to stay in the front third in a third cat race. That should be your target FTP.

Okay well I was at 4.36w/kg, this is my last FTP test on 7th Feb @ 70kg:
[img] [/img]

FTP = 305
W/KG = 4.36 (if using FTP)

I was planning on doing another one tomorrow.

Thanks Matts. That's a good shout. Lactate threshold is about 176bpm.

I've set my zones based on an FTP of 303w at the moment so 320 average for 20mins.

I have no idea what it would be now- presumably higher although my Strava estimated FTP is 297w.

I could do 5 mins at 330 I suppose and see where my HR has got to.....

(80kg and 320w is the 2017 target)

BTW, FTP only counts from a race 😈

BTW, FTP only counts from a race

Speaking of which. @crosshair, do you have your data in Golden Cheetah? If you have a decent set of race data, then you can just go to the CP graph and set the time period to cover the last, say, 6 weeks and see what the estimated FTP is. If you have done some races in that time it should give you a decent estimate.

No I don't currently Matts. I may give it a whirl.
Strava estimated is 293 for the past 6 weeks, 297 for 2017.

Anyway, Saturday is test day. I'll be nicely rested so fingers crossed it will be a representative one.

One final point about FTP. In a road race, which is normally longer than circuits (often a lot longer), FTP isn't such a helpful guide. The rest of the bunch will be dictating the pace, and you can either go with it, or not. The consequences of not are obvious. So I found longer harder efforts were needed to step up to the road. Double-headed circuit races or longer training rides. So tonight instead of my club ride I broke the three hrs on my flat [url= https://www.strava.com/activities/928333762/shareable_images/map_based?hl=en-US&v=1491339810 ]Loop[/url]

I think it's a point many Zwift racers miss actually. Because those are categorised by ftp/kg, people obsess over their FTP. Whereas actually, you can up-cat quite successfully if you have good short duration power to hang with the surges and then hide in the bunch.

I mention this because loads of my Zwift TFC team mates ask what Cat you need to be on Zwift fitness wise to hang with a real life Cat 4 bunch.
And actually the answer is 'it depends' on the rest of your power curve.

The relationship between my power and HR has improved for the better so I'm sure my FTP has progressed. I only want to check to square up my training Zones. From next week onwards, 2-5 min power improvement is my focus.

I think it's a point many Zwift racers miss actually. Because those are categorised by ftp/kg, people obsess over their FTP. Whereas actually, you can up-cat quite successfully if you have good short duration power to hang with the surges and then hide in the bunch.

When I was doing an event at the velodrome a few weeks back I found out that my short duration power is pretty crap (so I didn't do well in the 500m sprint from a standing start) but my longer duration power isn't quite so crap (and I won the Aussie pursuit). So it sounds like that is yet another reason (of very, very many) why circuit racing isn't for me! Thinking about doing the occasional time trial though.

my short duration power is pretty crap

Horses for courses. It's what makes the sport so interesting.

Mine is non existent. With only 67 kilos and zero denchness, 800 Watts is the most I'm likely to see. Contrast that with about 2 kWatts for a sprinter on the track! But I'll beat them over 50 miles of rolling terrain
Horses for courses. It's what makes the sport so interesting.

One of the guys that comes on our club rides is part of the German track racing setup. He's massively quicker than me over short distances but seems to suffer more than I do on the longer club runs (although I don't think I've ever seen him push himself yet) and really doesn't like hills (although I suspect his FTP w/kg is probably double mine).

Reading the last few posts I can't help but feel that I'm bringing a knife to gun fight
[url= https://www.strava.com/activities/891455834 ]https://www.strava.com/activities/891455834[/url]
ftp 223, ~3.2W/kg

This week's lesson in racing is that a night out in Durham is poor preparation for a crit in Shrewsbury, although I didnt get shelled until around the 30 minute mark, and part of that was caused by having to take a grassy detour coming out of the bottom hairpin whilst trying to move up
[url= https://www.strava.com/activities/925072171 ]
https://www.strava.com/activities/925072171 [/url]

Looks like your knife is sharp though jd77 😉
You hung at 25mph for 30mins- nothing wrong with that. Better positioning and following the right wheel would have probably got you to the finish..

What did you expect doing it with a hangover?!? 😛

May have done some more adjustment to the bike (no size changes, it's perfect now)

[b]Before:[/b]
[img] [/img]

[b]After:[/b]
[img] [/img]

The new position forces me to bend my elbows, it's also much easier to grab the gears/brakes. I was actually complemented by a driver earlier for my quick reactions as a woman decided to turn left into a side street right in front of me - so it all works 😆

Looks great. I'm surprised you didn't go for a gold ladder though? 😆

Ha that's the decorators..

Looking at the pics again I think my saddle has slid back... 😳

Looks like your knife is sharp though jd77
You hung at 25mph for 30mins- nothing wrong with that. Better positioning and following the right wheel would have probably got you to the finish..

I suppose I should look at it that way, and at least I was starting to move up when I had to go offroad

What did you expect doing it with a hangover?!?

The bike looks mint, just need to get an out front gps mount to save a few extra watts 😉

Here's mine with my race wheels and a specialized pavé seatpost fitted

[img] [/img]

Well that was emotional 😀

Decided to have power showing, went a fraction too hard to start I'd say. HR was at FTHR after 5mins so nothing to do but cling on for dear life!

Ended up with 178bpm average so I can probably tweak my HR zones up a notch.

My FTP was exactly what Strava said it was for the year- 297w.

So... small increase to 3.46w/kg but a 13% increase in FTP since 10th Nov 2016 and the last comparable test.

I've also survived 8 weeks of Base training without slipping back so a return to intervals this week should push things on again.

If I can lift it another 13% in the next 6/7 months and drop a kilo or two, then 4.0w/kg should be obtainable by the end of year 🙂

2/3/4 at pimbo for me today. I had a 22 mile ride to get there so wasn't expecting to get much other than bunch experience out of it (I mainly do TTs so sometimes get a bit nervous in bunch stuff and need to do more of it to get more comfortable). God it was boring! There were a couple of half hearted attacks in the first half but nothing stuck and in the second half of the race I felt like I was rolling round in zone 2 until the last lap or two. The garmin file says it was a bit harder than that but it got to the point where everyone knew that no one would get away so no one even bothered trying!

You sound like Nath and Blobby 😀 I long for the day when I see Z2... then I'll know I've finally become a Crit racer 😆

To be fair pimbo was a 45 mile road race on a course with no technical features or hills so it was never going to be the same intensity as a crit. A few attacks were covered in the first hour but then everyone seemed to settle in and wait for the sprint without even bothering to attempt any attacks so it got a little dull for the last 15 miles or so!

Arrrggghhh!! Racing with the big boys tomorrow!

I did Strava-stalk last years Tuesday night 3/4's and they looked like they were no faster than the Winter Series/ WDMC ones have been.
However, Johnny raced there on Saturday in a 3/4 that was 27mph!!!!!

If that happens, it's gonna be humble pie for dinner I think 😆

I think the sunshine and wind or lack of it compared to winter could play a factor as people get a bit fitter, lighter and the conditions improve.

Looking at your feed etc, i'd say without doubt you're quicker, faster, stronger than you've ever been, so if you're going to do well, this is likely to be when you will 🙂

I'm kind of back to just wanting to finish with the bunch tomorrow although obviously another tick on TiReds list would be nice (top 1/3).
I've entered Thruxton next Tuesday instead as it's Cat4 only and then I'll decide which I prefer as this isf supposed to be fun too 😆

I offloaded a shedload of fatigue without too much loss to my fitness score last week so no excuses really!

Thruxton... interesting... tell us more...

http://www.behindthebikeshed.co.uk/content/behind-the-bikeshed-s-thruxton-summer-series-2017-dates-announced.aspx

Bah, can't get to facebook in the office. Plus i don't have a FB account anyway lol

Look on BC.

It's just a 4th cat Crit around Thruxton. MrBlobby did some last year. It's closer of course and Cat 4 only in the race I'll do so perhaps more chance..

I can't imagine it's as fun as Hillingdon as the corners are designed for slightly higher speeds perhaps 😆

I found Castle Coombe to be quite fun even with the corners being for higher speeds. Some of the corners still felt tight at 30mph in a bunch. The average speeds are high!

I think it will be an absolute blast CH, the hill coming back to the chicane/pits may be your downfall against the whippets though.

Thruxton. MrBlobby did some last year. It's closer of course and Cat 4 only in the race I'll do so perhaps more chance..

I did about 3 rounds there a couple of years ago. Didn't enjoy it much and it put me off crits until this thread popped up. Consensus seemed to be that the course usually resulted in a sprint finish and racing was pretty negative (at least in the 4's.)

Castle Coombe I think would be more fun.

Did the Keith Carter Memorial race yesterday.. it was a brutal affair. Its a 50 mile 3/4 race but yesterday was much tougher than previous years, according to strava, 8% faster than 2016 when a team mate TT specialist managed to solo off the front for the entire race, this year he was dropped.

Course had 3300ft of climb for 50 miles and all the climb came in 1 mile of each lap, this year a headwind made it an even bigger test

There were 2 sustained breakaways, the second only caught in the last 8 miles, by which time the peleton had been shredded to 15 of which I was one. On the penultimate climb however I got cramp and had to pull up, gutted! Looking at the top 3 I think they had the power to race at 1st cat or elite level.

Just returning to the how important is FTP question, I did my first fast chain gang of the year last week, and although my FTP is pretty much as good as it's ever been at around 4.4W/kg, I suffered like a dog for a 80 minute ride that had a NP of 280W (which should be pretty ok - bang on 4W/kg for me). I had done a 230km ride two days before, which contributed to my bad legs, but looking at my power file, I spent virtually no time at all at threshold or tempo. I was either soft pedalling at recovery/endurance power (45 minutes) or at vo2 max/anaerobic capacity levels (22 minutes). I think the ability to recover from big efforts quickly is just as, if not more, important than FTP for road riding and racing.

I cant see the relevance of FTP in road racing. I have no idea what mine is, I suspect it is just below 300. But in racing you are putting in various efforts ranging from anaerobic to recovery based on the terrain and bunch dynamic. I think that sprinting and climbing repeat efforts are much better to focus on as on race circuits you will be doing both of these things a lot!

I read my "ftp" from retrospective hard races. The really brutal circuit races that are an hour long and just full-on. Tuesday E123's at Hillingdon are just this, no recovery time and a roller-coaster ride.

I did a 25 TT yesterday and really struggled to get my heart rate into Z4 at all, so no FTP test there. This was on the back of 1200 km in three weeks. So recovery today and this week with no long rides.

Would like to cheer on CH in the 34 tomorrow and really love the E123 race, but I have a vets race Wednesday and a handicap on Thursday. Decisions, decisions.

Re FTP-
The thing is, virtually everything else is subjective. Strava times, race results, TT routes etc etc all depend on external factors such as wind, who else turns up and so on.
So while I think a fast recovery and 2-5 min power is what wins Crits, I'm hoping doing a consistently repeatable test every few months will at least give me a guide to my progress.

Also, to clarify, I only think the 4w/kg figure is important for me if the rest of my power curve increases by the same amount if that makes sense 🙂

My bike is prepared for tomorrow, I don't have a place as such but I'm hoping they can squeeze me in. 😆

FTP means nothing in racing, like we've said it's all about recovery times. However as CH as said it's an indicator as to whether or not your fitness level is increasing and another benchmark to compare yourself against others with.

Going to hopefully get a bike fit booked in next month, with my saddle moving itself backwards I found it more comfortable than it's current "correct" position. I've gone for a median approach for tomorrow. 😳

FTP means nothing in racing, like we've said it's all about recovery times.

These 2 things are actually [i][b]the same thing![/b][/i]*

When you do an effort above threshold you are dipping in to your anaerobic work capacity (W'). In order to recover, you need to drop down below threshold. How far below you can drop determines how fast your body can recover ready for the next effort.

You should do a bit of reading on Anaerobic Wok Capacity / W Prime - it can be a really useful tool to help you with intervals.

*Actually, this is Critical Power (CP), FTP would be the point just above cp where you will end up reducing W' to zero over a 1 hour effort. But these 2 things are very close in real terms.

You should do a bit of reading on Anaerobic Wok Capacity / W Prime - it can be a really useful tool to help you with intervals.

Interesting stuff (at least for someone with a Biochemistry degree :-))

I suppose the danger from worrying too much about CP/FTP etc is that you can suck the fun out of riding, especially when its nice out (I've no problem with flogging myself on the trainer during the winter months.

I suppose the danger from worrying too much about CP/FTP etc is that you can suck the fun out of riding

Indeed. But this thread is about racing. And if you want to really enjoy your racing, then training really needs to be structured and goal oriented. (unless you're a real masochist, and the real enjoyment of racing is from hanging off the back chewing the bars for an hour before getting dropped!)

But I always try to incorporate some unstructured rides into my schedule. Also social rides with friends are a good way to shut off from the power meter.

I think the thing is to forget about FTP as an absolute number and more consider it in terms of its actual significance as Lactate Threshold.

My NP in a race isn't far off of my FTP. Hence my 1450w sprint doesn't get a look in because I'm too knackered!
So I either need to raise my FTP so that the 290 odd watts I'm using to finish the race correlates to about Z3- or be braver in the bunch and use less watts to get to the last lap!!