[Closed] Shimano 2011 embargo

I don't know why I was still reading this bloody thread, but something wonderful just happened (look at the advert, those are Shimano components)...

ah very good - I'd forgotten about online adverts - which I'm spared by being a premium member - and at first I thought those were the offending pics, but with regard to revenue, that is a Chain Reaction ad, not a Shimano one

those are Shimano components)...

2011 components?

Actually, it looks like a campy road mech. False alarm!

What's wrong with coasting aimlessly? Life would probably be much less complicated and far more enjoyable if more people tried it.

People trying to be too clever - it'll be the downfall of mankind, I tell thee 😉

What's wrong with coasting aimlessly?

Homer Simpson speaks 🙂

not that clever, I think Barnes has confused himself with his 'right to argue' semantics

think you've flogged this dead horse back to life Barnes

the horse is now definitely dead

It's not dead, it's resting!

I think Barnes has confused himself with his 'right to argue' semantics

I wish I could understand what that means...

Other web forums for arguements about biting the hand that feeds are available.
If this was some improtant point then perhaps we'd be behind you simon, but i think that mark has explained himself and justified his actions quite reasonably. If i was him i don't think i'd be quite so polite to you.
Perhaps you can see that you've made your point, we can all understand what you mean, but you're NEVER going to agree with Mark's viewpoint and just leave it at that.

I wish I could understand what that means...

I am not fresh meat 😉

The curry was lukewarm, but very welcome all the same 🙂

If this was some improtant point then perhaps we'd be behind you simon, but i think that mark has explained himself and justified his actions quite reasonably. If i was him i don't think i'd be quite so polite to you.
Perhaps you can see that you've made your point, we can all understand what you mean, but you're NEVER going to agree with Mark's viewpoint and just leave it at that.

the difference between enquiry and argument i feel : )

The curry was lukewarm, but very welcome all the same

Looks like Barnes will have to try harder next time then 😀

EDIT: Although having just clicked the 'sfb argues' tag, he's done it on about 30 threads in the past year - not bad going!

I don't criticise everything ST does, but I am alert for compromises to the forum for commercial reasons

The whole website is a commercial reason!

Chipps and I have been doing this as our day in day out, mortgage paying job for almost 10 years! There's nine people who rely on the commercial function of the website and mag to keep their livelihoods running smoothly. Everything we do is for commercial reasons! Luckily, coming up with a website that is as popular with as many mountain bikers as possible as well as the industry IS a good commercial reason to do what we do.

It also helps that it is a fantastic way to earn a living - we are all rather lucky 🙂

Other web forums for arguements about biting the hand that feeds are available.

is it not the case that we feed them ?

If this was some improtant point then perhaps we'd be behind you simon

If ? So the matter of being in the industry's pocket is trivial ?

but i think that mark has explained himself and justified his actions quite reasonably. If i was him i don't think i'd be quite so polite to you.

I see no need for rudeness, and I've been polite...

Perhaps you can see that you've made your point, we can all understand what you mean, but you're NEVER going to agree with Mark's viewpoint and just leave it at that.

it's called a discussion, not drive by opinionating! I'm always suspicious when people chime in saying "let's draw a line under it" etc It's over when it's over, not when [b]you[/b] say it's over.

SFB - you've already stated that you only buy new parts when they wear out so why go to all the bother of creating and replying to this thread if it's unlikely it will have any bearing on you at all?

I'm always suspicious when people chime in saying "let's draw a line under it" etc It's over when it's over, not when you say it's over.

I'm struggling to think of anything more to add to the discussion/argument 🙂

I'm struggling to think of anything more to add to the discussion/argument

what curry did you have? rice or bread? Pickles?

...did anyone else notice the zoofighter embargo being enacted just then? 😀 He's probably got the inside track on all of us and needs to keep it all on the down-low.

Can we just leave Simon to argue with himself now

if only it were that easy, but it's like sex, for full pleasure you need company :o)

The whole website is a commercial reason!

...etc...

It also helps that it is a fantastic way to earn a living - we are all rather lucky

hmmm, doesn't that sound a little disingenuous? "It's all just for the money and oooops, but btw it's great fun" 🙂

How is that disingenuous?
It's very true. It's fun earning money this way. Is it wrong to enjoy the way we earn a living? Is it somehow meant to be an inverse relationship and if it's fun we should earn less?

Simon, what's your claim to fame/list of achievements?

I want to know what the benchmark is when I decide to stop coasting aimlessly and really focus like you.

disingenuous in that if you were only interested in the money you could have been robbing banks or running a chip shop when in fact you do it because it's something you love and feel strongly about. The money is incidental to that, you just happen to need some to live and keep doing it.

Simon, what's your claim to fame/list of achievements?

I have none, and I claimed argument as fuel to the intellect, not celebrity!

The money is far from incidental. Now who is being disingenuous?

🙂

We do feed them in part, but do you not also take from here? You clearly spend a lot of time on here, so i presume you are getting something out of it. Not all that you take needs to have a monetary value.

I did not say it was over, but merely suggested that the majority on here
felt that we held a differing opinion to yours and you wern'y going to win us over.

Surely at some point you can see that you really aren't going to change Marks opinion?
[IMG] [/IMG]

The money is far from incidental. Now who is being disingenuous?

ah well, perhaps I attributed too much of my own lack of interest in money to you 🙁

Not all that you take needs to have a monetary value.

A curious remark given that I have been advocating ignoral of financial concerns.

Surely at some point you can see that you really aren't going to change Marks opinion?

that's not necessary to me. I raised an issue and we've argued it back and forth. For what it's worth, some of my favourite arguments are when someone changes my opinion, though that hasn't happened in this case. As for majority agreement, I suspect intelligence is inversely proportional to the number of people, and a herd almost mindless 🙂

The money is far from incidental.

No wonder he wouldn't get rid of those flashing ads!

I suspect intelligence is inversely proportional to the number of people, and a herd almost mindless

So going by that logic we are mindless because we choose NOT to walk on frozen canals?

I don't think that we are mindless, but how far do you go to prove a point, when the consequences can directly affect your (and others) livelihood? If [u]you[/u] have nothing to lose then fine, by all means go all the way, but dont expect [u]me[/u] to suffer for [u]your[/u] beliefs.

So going by that logic we are mindless because we choose NOT to walk on frozen canals?

no it's more that, the more people you have, the less significant the things they'll all agree on

I don't think that we are mindless

that was tongue-in-cheek 🙂 My point was that just because a lot of people agree about something doesn't make it right (unless that's your definition of truth)

but how far do you go to prove a point, when the consequences can directly affect your (and others) livelihood? If you have nothing to lose then fine, by all means go all the way, but dont expect me to suffer for your beliefs.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with that, but I guess you will mainly suffer from your own beliefs, and can be unconcerned about mine (if any)

thanks folks, I quite like these threads, I find the discussion interesting and I feel like I've learnt a few things along the way.

Argument / discussion can be frustrating and some times irritating as people challenge one anothers point of view.

Why do some of you complain and attempt to stiffle discussion? I dont understand. Its a bit like the telly, if you don't like whats on turn over.

IMO Mark and SFB have both be polite, they both have the choice not to participate in the conversation as does everyone else who has contributed to it

Say Mark to chose to follow your advise and "publish and be damned", then STW could be left out of product releases and generally lose the trust and respect of the manufacturers. If that happened, there would be less to read about the mag(product tests etc), readership could dwindle to the point where the magazine was unsustainable to the point where it would close, taking the forums with it.
Therefore I would be worse off because of someone else's ill advised actions.
At the end of the day, STW is not a bunch of mates having a bit of a laugh, its a legitimate business and anything that could potentially harm the viability of said business has to be considered VERY carefully.

Can I just say I write for the mag for the love of it, I've been out riding my 2 X 10 speed today in ace weather on great trails, and you are [b]wrong[/b] about everything Simon.....

:oP

PMSL @ Dave! You are a lucky man, im at work (lol) 😉

Actually I think Simon Barnes is the only one looking for an arguement here.

STW, has two customers; the OEM and the buying public. That means that they have to decide what is in STW best interest at any one point in time.
Sometimes that best interest will benefit STW and the buying public, and other times it will benefit STYW and the OEM's. As long as people are mostly happy, there's a successful magazine.

FWIW, if the 2011 XTR looks anything like the pics, I'd buy it.
But I certainly won't be dropping cash on any 2010 XTR in a hurry now I know there's juicy new toys coming out.

Say Mark to chose to follow your advise and "publish and be damned"

that suggestion was Mark's not mine, in a 'reductio ad absurdam' type argument. I agreed that they should respect Shimano's copyrights first hand, but not when Mark suggested I should take the discussion off the forum - though he made no steps to enforce this.

and anything that could potentially harm the viability of said business has to be considered VERY carefully.

including becoming seen as an instrument of the industry they purport to hold up to scrutiny!

and you are wrong about everything Simon.....

when people contradict me I think I'm onto something, when they agree, I wonder if I've made a mistake!

STW, has two customers; the OEM and the buying public.

an interesting viewpoint - I hope it doesn't degenerate into advertorialism 🙁 One might imagine the advertising is predicated on the readership and not the other way round.

[i]when people contradict me I think I'm onto something, [/i]

then you are wrong [b]and[/b] mistaken

:oP

[i]including becoming seen as an instrument of the industry they purport to hold up to scrutiny![/i]

Mark's admitted that pretty much that's how it works, and I've never seen/heard ST (or any any mountain bike magazine for that matter)make a claim that they "Hold up to scrutiny" anything.

It's a hobbiest magazine, not a investigative journal...

We are all, in a way, "instruments" of the industry in the wider context

then you are wrong and mistaken

you forgot "[b]FACT[/b]" 🙂

I think it's you who ignores the facts Simon

:o)

and I've never seen/heard ST (or any any mountain bike magazine for that matter)make a claim that they "Hold up to scrutiny" anything ... We are all, in a way, "instruments" of the industry in the wider context

Oh ? Well that's OK then, snouts in the trough everyone! I shall have to accept that critical mantle for myself...

[i]'ve been out riding my 2 X 10 speed today[/i]

Any pics?

One or two, but they're embargoed until the mag is out ;o)

I think it's you who ignores the facts Simon

relying on 'facts' is a sure sign of a rogue 🙁

[i]I've never seen/heard ST (or any any mountain bike magazine for that matter)make a claim that they "Hold up to scrutiny" anything [/i]

+1. I would have sworn I made this point many hours ago, but as it is the central misconception that has been driving simon's posts along since I am glad he didn't notice. 😀

[Chuckles at Drac] 😉