[Closed] Shimano 2011 embargo

I'm disappointed - clearly you have a much poorer imagination than I expected.

10 gears better than 9 ?? Well, yes indeed my imagination appears to be deeply lacking 🙁 Given that I already often have to make at least 2 clicks to feel a useful difference an extra gear isn't be overly useful...

So you really can't imagine a situation and a rider where an extra gear would be of even the tiniest benefit? Clearly we're talking about a finely tuned combination of man and machine here rather than you!

Clearly we're talking about a finely tuned combination of man and machine here rather than you!

obviously I'm only thinking about myself, not some close ratio racing snake tosspot! And to sacrifice either chain width or wheel strength for the "tiniest benefit" (other than perhaps to Shimano's bottom line) is madness 🙁

And you say "an extra gear" but in fact it'll be a minutely different ratio - the cassette is likely to remain 11-34 or whatever unless the mech cage becomes longer and more strike prone... in fact many of the ratios are likely to be the same as the sprockets have integer numbers of teeth which must monotonically increase.

I think it's a given that Shimano will release something new in 2011, that's not news. And folks wanting the latest will hold on those few months. Early leaked pictures doesn't affect that.
Folks needing kit now will buy now whether they see pics of a new bit of kit or not.
Shame we can't just get over it. And actually I'm more likely to go looking now that I've seen there's some fuss over this, otherwise I wouldn't have thought anything about a thread on 2011 stuff, that's par for course isn't it?

Cynical....but is it to create extra 'interest/appetite' for products that have grown in price greatly over the past two years?

What next? Shimano put the year of manufacturer prominently on so people will say 'oh, Geoff can only afford the 09 mech' on his bike?

STX 7 speed - that's where it (was) at....

BTW- my rear mech is 10 years old. Couldnt give a **** about having the latest kit dripping off my bike(s).

my rear mech is 10 years old

I'm impressed, I don't think one has ever lasted me longer than 9 months before hitting something and bending out of shape or snapping. I'm obviously not very good at avoiding sticky-uppy rocks 🙁

Early leaked pictures doesn't affect that.

Folks needing kit now will buy now whether they see pics of a new bit of kit or not.

There's a rumour of a new iPhone coming out in June/July. I have the 3g version at the moment and my contract ends in May. O2 have already contacted me to offer me early termination of my contract so I can start a new one with a 3gs phone. I said no thanks.. I'll wait until the summer. The rumour of the new iPhone has caused O2 to start worrying about whether they will now shift the huge stocks of 3gs phones they currently have. There will be some great deals on 3gs phones in the next few months. O2 won;t be happy about offering them but since the rumour of the new phone is spreading fast they don;t have much choice.

It's the same in any industry with rapid development of their products. Really good businesses have contingency plans just in case such a new development is leaked early.

The leaking of the Shimano images early won't stop sales of current product entirely but it will cause a dip in the sales figures a little earlier than was planned.

SFB- its battle scarred. I'm amazed its lasted this long but I've seen the same model on another riders back and hes had his on for the same length of time.

Slightly OT- Back in 2002? I had a spin on an Intense with electronic Shimano shifters (I think they cost £400). They were instant in shifting and operated on a metal touch-plate (from memory).

What ever happened to them?!

Hora, are you thinking of Airlines?
[img] [/img]

If it was on an Intense, could have been Gid from Dirt and Dreams....

Hora; it rained 😀

The leaking of the Shimano images early won't stop sales of current product entirely but it will cause a dip in the sales figures a little earlier than was planned.

thanks for the little parable about marketing, however you are not going to make my heart bleed over the troubles of massive corporations, when I'm not sure their gaming of the market benefits us consumers at all, and we know they are going to try to make us dissatisfied with what we've recently bought to discard it for something new and marginally (or notionally) improved.

[edit] And it seems to me that your pandering to corporate designs may not be in our best interests 🙁

CaptainFlashheart, it was Gids and yes you are right.

heres some inside info: you'll be able to use it to change gear, allowing you to have a constant cadence uphill and down. there will be wheels and a mechanism to retard forward movement.

it may also be shiny.

Yes, Simon. That's the way it works.
I'm not trying to make your heart bleed or even convince you that it's all a good system but you used the word pragmatic earlier and I'm being similarly pragmatic in simply trying to explain the system so you can understand our position and why we make the decisions we do.

Perhaps you'd do things differently and stick two fingers up to the bike industry and 'publish and be damned'. I can pretty much say with a fair amount of certainty that a few months down the line you'd be left wondering why there's been a drop in products coming in to the office and what you could do about the falling ad revenues. Shortly after you'd be having one to one's with some of the nine staff who depend on the mag for a living discussing their redundancy.

There's a system. We are in it. If you happen to be one of the people who think that this website and Singletrack magazine are a success then you are also by default saying the system works.

On the other hand if you have an idea for how it can be done differently and still maintain a livelihood for 9 members of staff then I'm very much open to hearing it.

So, if there's such a problem with pics/details of Shimano stuff and Shimano are not happy about the details being leaked, please tell me why the pic of the new SRAM X0 appeared at EXACTLY the same time?
My guess is that Shimano got wind of SRAMs 10sp XO, and thought:

"Bugger. This could be a problem for our sales if Joe Public sees new XO, let's release some details of out own stuff, which we can demonstrate will be cheaper as it starts at SLX, so instead of carring on buying X9/X7 people will wiat for our shiny new 10sp"

There's little anyone can do to convince me the whole thing isn't a HUGE con/marketing ploy. 🙂

I'm still with SFB on this one, I was at the start and I've not read anything that alters that so far.

It is certainly not the fault of anyone who simply found pictures and reposted them. That's the internet. That's how it works and the industry has to work around it.... somehow.

Strange to say that and then ban re-posting of the images on an internet site. I know you have every right to say so, but I just think it's an odd thing to say. It's not your fault for posting leaked pictures, that's how the world works and the industry has to work around it, but everyone please stop posting leaked pictures?

Ah well, I'm glad I only buy what I need and when I need it, rather than waiting for the latest kit that someone fixes a regular and arbitrary release date on.

So, if there's such a problem with pics/details of Shimano stuff and Shimano are not happy about the details being leaked, please tell me why the pic of the new SRAM X0 appeared at EXACTLY the same time?

I suppose it could have been someone who had both for testing who leaked both images at the same time?

Strange to say that and then ban re-posting of the images on an internet site. I know you have every right to say so, but I just think it's an odd thing to say. It's not your fault for posting leaked pictures, that's how the world works and the industry has to work around it, but everyone please stop posting leaked pictures?

That's exactly right. The point I've been trying to make is that the problem is an industry one and as such it's not fair to blame any website user for posting pictures that they have found on the internet as a result of the bike industry's problems.

Incidentally, no forum member has been banned for posting the pictures. We've just asked, politely that you don't and I've tried to be as open and honest as I can be with the reasons behind that statement.

On the other hand if you have an idea for how it can be done differently and still maintain a livelihood for 9 members of staff then I'm very much open to hearing it.

forgive me if this sounds a bit like "We only sold [b]one[/b] of the kids into slavery so the rest of us could eat"

I'm sure with a whip round we can get enough money to employ all nine to follow SFB around, loudly critisising everything he does, possibly via loudhailers.

forgive me if this sounds a bit like "We only sold one of the kids into slavery so the rest of us could eat"

Surely you can't be serious?

forgive me if this sounds a bit like "We only sold one of the kids into slavery so the rest of us could eat"

You are absolutely correct. ST is besmirched, foul, depraved and probably in league with satan.

And now so are you because you are part of it. You might as well be stuffing them in ovens yourself. Frankly I don't know how you can live with yourself.

Surely you can't be serious?

It's worse than serious, it's SFB...

😉

to employ all nine to follow SFB around, loudly critisising everything he does, possibly via loudhailers.

I don't criticise everything ST does, but I am alert for compromises to the forum for commercial reasons

This is a pointless argument. SFB does not run a successful magazine or website and Mark (probably) does not consider himself an anarchist.

If shimano are kicking up about the pics then Mark has little option but to protect his interests by playing the game, that's not sucking a corporate knob, just sound business sense in not antagonising a major supplier.

I am more interested in the curry TBH

And folks wanting the latest will hold on those few months. Early leaked pictures doesn't affect that.

It kind of does; I've just put off replacing most of current XTR drivetrain, and have sold all my spares that won't be used in the next year of racing. Why? Because pictures of an XTR double chainset appeared, and my knees cryed with joy at the lower Q-factor.

After I first posted the XTR pictures in a bust of enthusiasm, I had a brief discussion with Chipps via email, with basically the same argument as the OP received being used (except with me it was the Motorhead album, not Girls Aloud, not sure what ST are implying about the OP 😉 ). The copyright argument stinks of DMCA, or at least strong feelings from the copyright owner in the past, and a small business such as ST would do well to follow these and protect their future livelihoods. We definitely have to respect that.

Perhaps you'd do things differently and stick two fingers up to the bike industry and 'publish and be damned'. I can pretty much say with a fair amount of certainty that a few months down the line you'd be left wondering why there's been a drop in products coming in to the office and what you could do about the falling ad revenues.

1) I wouldn't be arguing with you at all had you not suggested I take the discussion off forum
2) I agree that you should respect Shimano's copyright to the extent that you could be held responsible for hosting it - but that would not preclude allowing the posting of links to content held by 3rd parties and dispayed on other sites
3) I've scanned a (non current) copy of the mag and cannot find any Shimano ads to be removed...

This is a pointless argument.

that is a naive statement. Argument justifies itself.

We're actually watching sfb morphing into Cressers before our eyes. Mark will get on the webcam and moon him in a minute... 😯 🙂

I've scanned a (non current) copy of the mag and cannot find any Shimano ads to be removed...

That did occour to me as well. Shimano themselves don't run that many ads. Certainly not enough to bring a magazine down I'd have thought, or are they capable of stopping other companies that fit their products (Orange, Specialized, Terk, say) from advertising in the mag? 🙂

I'd go so far as to say that the folk at STW towers have explained their actions and that we should probably draw a line under this and get on with our lives. When 10 speed comes out we'll just moan about mud related gearing issues and designed obsolescence anyway.

that is a naive statement. Argument justifies itself.

only if you are arguing about the same thing, rather than for the sake of it.

only if you are arguing about the same thing, rather than for the sake of it.

argument is the lifeblood of the intellect, without it you are just coasting aimlessly

argument is the lifeblood of the intellect, without it you are just coasting aimlessly

enquiry is the lifeblood of the intellect, not argument. Scrutiny is exceptionally important, as is the acceptance of the perspective of others who do not reside in your personal universe.

enquiry is the lifeblood of the intellect

enquiry is too passive, the results need to be tested in argument

as is the acceptance of the perspective of others who do not reside in your personal universe.

recognise perhaps, but not necessarily [b]accept[/b]

I don't know why I was still reading this bloody thread, but something wonderful just happened (look at the advert, those are Shimano components)...

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a well-developed intellect would accept that the people who own the website have said please don't, get over it, perhaps even realise that it doesn't really matter.

a well-developed intellect would accept that the people who own the website have said please don't, get over it, perhaps even realise that it doesn't really matter.

had they not cause to question the concept of ownership in this context or respect for freedom of speech...

enquiry is too passive, the results need to be tested in argument

You can test rigorously through enquiry without resorting to argument.

recognise perhaps, but not necessarily accept

if you cannot accept that people will have different opinions to you (and will continue to have those views regardless of what you think) then argument may well be your only refuge.

those are Shimano components)...

2011 components?

Hmmm. They can ban you, based on a self-determined ruleset. Therefore the freedom of speech is granted within confined boundaries, as determined by the owners.

simple, really.

You can test rigorously through enquiry without resorting to argument.

you might think you have but unless you present your conclusions for critical analysis (ie argument) your rigour might be misdirected

if you cannot accept that people will have different opinions to you

I meant "recognise their perspective but not necessarily accept what they think as true"

2011 components?

No, what do you take me for? Some kind of fearless investigative journalist?