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I didn't say heavy though did I, just a bike that feels planted than sketchy on handling just because it weighs a nats pube.
[i]Nah don't want another 29er for the more aggressive rides.[/i]
Mate, a lad I ride with runs a 29er FS - he is the fastest of all of the riders I know, top 10 on most local Strava descents (and these include many of super-steep Tweed Valley routes). I rode it once and set PR's both up and down.
If you want to buy another bike, buy one. But you don't need one.
30 pound with dh tyre on mine - felt heavy...
6.75lbs w/CTD. Ti hardware, see. Sold, but not what I'd call heavy.
Got to be honest those knolly bikes aren't really good lookers are they? Personal opinion and all.....
Again I've got some solo air 160mm Pikes and mavic crossmax enduro wheels sat in my spare room so has to be 650b
Those transitions look alright and usually ride well.
Don't really get why people slag off oranges, if they were that crap people wouldn't buy them and then they would have to do something else
Fair enough. Personal taste and all that.
Sb6c?
Pivot Mach 6?
Nicholai ion?
It's going to be a big shock seeing an Orange bike, after nearly 3 years out of the UK I've only seen 2 and they were team sponsored DH bikes. They just don't seem to translate out of the UK (and yes we have mud and rain in the rest of the world) aside from that I've seen a lot of happy Nomad owners.
That's an interesting one the Nicholi ion....
Ever ridden one? Never seen one on the trails.
Defo going to have a look at a pivot Mach 6 and possibly devinci spartan.
Kinda want to not make a rash decision and only buy what I've tried. Although I've seen some deals on pivot Mach 6 frames for £2100 from £2500 which is a couple of hundred quid more than the alpine 160...........................
The ions an FSR so a bit more active. The pivot is a DW which is a little taught for my liking. The sb6c is an interesting one IMHO. I've ridden a SB66 and it was pretty good but this [i]could[/i] be exceptional.
Don't really get why people slag off oranges, if they were that crap people wouldn't buy them and then they would have to do something else
A lot of people here seem to want to be seen saying the 'right' thing. That, or they're the type to take what someone else has said and then repeat it as their own. 😮 😉
Don't really get why people slag off oranges, if they were that crap people wouldn't buy them and then they would have to do something else
Demo'd some, reasonable bikes but for me didn't live up to the hype (bestest bike everer) or the price tag.
I have had a Five now for nearly three years and it's time for a new bike Five has been great but fancy a change, never going back to a Specialized the 2010 Enduro I had fell to pieces, demo'd a 5010 a Bronson and a Nomad 650b the Bronson being my choice the Nomad no doubt would be amazing at uplifts but just felt a bit dull. So I have 2 bikes I fancy a Yeti SB6c or the new Ibis Mojo Hd3.
My finger hovered over the buy button for a new nomad frame for quite a while but then I decided that the additional cost of forks, wheels and a stealth dropper was a price not worth paying. For the type of trail riding I do 26" will do the job. Longer faster trails with more gnar a 27" will do better but the in reality these trails have all been ridden before when 26" was king.
Bike geometry is key as is personal preference. My frame made in 2009 has a 66.5 degree head angle, a 23.5" top tube but with excellent reach as the seat tube is quite upright. A low 13.5inch bb and nice short chainstays. It goes down better than it goes up but it will go up most things well enough. It has cable routing for a dropper and for a front mech, if you want it, and iscg tabs. So other than bigger wheels there is nothing out there offering me anymore than I already have.
When it comes time to change it I'll be going the direct sale route to either yt or commencal. Everything else is just too bloody expensive, even Orange. Alpine 160 does look good though!
30 pound with dh tyre on mine - felt heavy...
That's because you were running dual plies.
Generally for UK enduro decent single ply or the Schwalbe 1.5 ply is fine.
It's better to run as light wheels/tyres as you can for the money you have than run a lighter frame. Mass centralization, unsprung weight and rotating mass etc.
A 30lb bike with lighter wheels/tyres feels a lot more sprightly than a 30lb bike laded with dual plies.
So because I don't like Orange I am A)Dumb B)Inexperienced C)Talking bull sh*t D)All of the former.
Well this is a forum, forums are for expressing opinions and thats my opinion and yes I have owned more than one Orange plus Trek, Spesh, Intense, Turner,On One, Cranfield and demoed more bikes than I can recall.
Just so we are clear, I'm not saying Orange are crap or make bad bikes, what I said was their designs have not moved on as much as other brands and as a result I would not buy one.
If you think their single pivot designs are the dogs do dahs thats fine by me, if you think Orange are best bikes in the world thats also fine by me, its your money and your choice but don't shout me down because I have a different view to yours !
ps I honestly have not bought or read what WhatMTB in the past 8 or more years so I cannot comment on its content, unlike you 😉
In my opinion Orange bikes stopped being good by comparative standards about 10 years ago
That's the bit that did you. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and if you don't like x or y that's fine but to state the above is wrong and makes you look silly.
When I was in the market recently I thought Orange bikes looked crude by today's standards. I'm sure they ride well enough and that's the main thing of course, but they do look seriously dated now. They looked a bit dated 10 years ago if I'm being honest. Rightly or wrongly that made them a non-starter for me.
I'm not about to defend the look of Orange bikes as some will like, some will not but I don't really see how any design is dated or not as looking through WMB there only seems to be 4 different 'looks' for suspension design. They all look the same and similar to how they've looked for years. The only difference is they are getting longer and slacker.
thats because you were running dual plies
Well duh!
That was for 3 weeks in the Alps-back home with tubeless same bike is 28 (Newmad btw)
but I don't really see how any design is dated
For me it's the detail design and materials used. A bit like cars. They don't fundamentally change but they improve incrementally over time. The development on some bikes over the last decade was quite obvious to me, but the Orange 5 looks exactly like it did 10 years ago to me. Okay so the top tube is bent now.
I presume the geometry has evolved appropriately, but I simply couldn't see past a bike that appeared to be living in the past in most other respects. Obviously could be my loss if it happens to be the best bike in the world. But that's how I saw it and therefore it missed my shortlist as a result.
In short it looks like a crude tool to me, regardless of how effective it might be.
If you wanted to make a single pivot full-sus out of aluminium, I can't see why you wouldn't make it like Orange do?
Has to be 650b especially as everything I've got to build in 650b
You've only got wheels and forks!!!
In the opinion of myself, i'd sell both these items rather than spend something like 20,000 pennies on a new frame. Especially considering you already have a bike that will do what you want the new bike to do.
Had a MK.1 Nomad- the dream bike I'd lusted after. It was a dog. Sold it after 6 months. Replaced with an Alpine which I still have 3 years later.
Which is to say what makes a bike good is subjective.
[i]chiefgrooveguru - Member
If you wanted to make a single pivot full-sus out of aluminium, I can't see why you wouldn't make it like Orange do?[/i]
And therein lies is another aspect of Orange that does not work for me, it looks like something me and my mates knocked up in my garage with a bit of sheet ally and a TIG welding kit. That look is the same look I first saw 12 or 13 years ago when I started riding. Now before you all accuse me of "bike vanity" if I thought it was the best bike I would not be too worried by its looks so I can only assume the Alpine riders enjoy the bike enough to forgive its "built in a shed" appearance.
As stated above its a hugely subjective topic 🙂
I like the industrial quality's of my Alpine 650
There is quite a lot of fine detail gone into the frame make up but most people still see them as boxy sheet ally bikes which is a shame.
I've been lucky enough to have owned oranges for the best part of 19 years and in that time they have evolved ;-).
I really like how most Oranges look - form following function, really pure industrial design. When you think about the forces going through a frame all the big monocoque sections and gussets mixed with some traditional round tubes makes a lot of sense. This looks made for ragging:
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I also really like these:
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Very clever engineering in there to make a 160mm alloy frame that light and dare give it a ten year warranty!
And these:
[img] 
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Round tubes and machined gussets at the front with square tubes at the back for strength, stiffness and tyre/drivetrain clearance.
And my personal bike:
[img] 
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Similar structural thinking to the Nicolai but with hydroforming instead of machined gussets up front and ribbed chainstays for even greater strength/stiffness.
And I bet everyone fabricating these alloy frames enjoys their job a hell of a lot more than those making carbon frames...
I'm in the Nomad camp, no surprise given that I own it. But looking at it, sitting on it & riding it just make me happy. Orange fives are good to ride but I'm not the biggest fan of the looks of that swing arm. The 650b with 1*11 does look nice in the flesh though, cleans it up a treat
looks like a crude tool to me, regardless of how effective it might be.
And there is the fork in the road. Do you stand your bike against the garage door and take photos of it or do you ride it and think from up there it looks just the same as most other bikes you've ridden? A bike is first and foremost a tool is it not?
yes it is a tool but its nice if you like looking at it too
And therein lies is another aspect of Orange that does not work for me, it looks like something me and my mates knocked up in my garage with a bit of sheet ally and a TIG welding kit. That look is the same look I first saw 12 or 13 years ago when I started riding. Now before you all accuse me of "bike vanity" if I thought it was the best bike I would not be too worried by its looks so I can only assume the Alpine riders enjoy the bike enough to forgive its "built in a shed" appearance
I would love to see anyone on STW 'knock up' a bike that looks even vaguely like an Orange Five in their shed. Regardless of just how sorted the geometry is, they're incredibly well built.
If they were that easy to build, then the market would be flooded with home engineers knocking up their own. I've seen a few home made bikes, and they all look a bit shit. The Segment, Five, Alpine Five and Alpine 160 look how bikes should look.
[i]The Segment, Five, Alpine Five and Alpine 160 look how bikes should look.[i][/i]
In your opinion !
Not mine and not a whole lot of other people. If you closet Ludites like Orange from a visual point it just proves beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 😀
Well said wiganer, but don't hold your breath for the Santa Cruz owners to get it.
More pivots and more money = better for some people.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
True, but that makes it sound as though it's down to free will. In fact, most of us admire what we've been conditioned to admire and things are often labelled ugly simply because they don't conform to the current fashion.
Personally I like the look of my Five. That's partly because it's a bright neon colour and I like bright colours. It's partly because it doesn't look like every other bike and I value originality over conformity. But it's mostly because when I look at it I'm reminded of all the fun we've had. I certainly wouldn't try to claim that it's beautiful in any objective way though.
Nothing wrong with those Oranges. A bit heavy maybe but the geo is better than most. Funny thing is their design suits composite construction more than any other design. I appreciate the made in the UK thing but a composite version would be insanely light and would really open up their customer base.
The only downside of the non linkage actuated single pivot is the shock position is limited. Regardless the suspension has far fewer basic flaws than SC's counter link design.
is this the point where someone trots out a boring graph thats supposed to show that SC bikes don't work?
Of course they work and the geo of the Nomad is great, but if Honda or Yamaha etc got into mass production mountain bikes they wouldn't use a counter rotating link design.
What's the problem with a counter rotating link specifically and what is the best of the suspension designs theoretically? Difficult to answer
I agree a composite single pivot could be super light and super simple and no-one seems to make one?
I don't think anything is really best but some are better than others 🙂 Plus there's personal preference around anti-squat levels.
The simplest way to explain the issue with counter rotating links is the leverage forces (rate) acting on the shock are not consistent. They've done their best with the Nomad but it still feels like the first 50% or travel is completely different to the second.
For me I think the split-pivot single pivots or recent FSR's work pretty well. DW's, Maestro's and other dual links can be great too, just not quite as supple. Thing is a couple mm of shock link pivot location can have a huge impact so it isn't just this design is the "best".
Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder in the case of bikes and I really like both the alpine 160 and nomad
Got to be honest, that alpine looks great but the way it rides has a much bigger influence on me buying one or not. I could happily buy an Alpine 160 27.5 frame with a float x or ccdb but would have stretch to get to a nomad so it would have to be an improvement in performance for an extra 1k.
I know Orange make great bikes but I do wish they would investigate more advanced manufacturing options like hydroforming and maybe composite options. I'd hazard a guess to say its down to cost and wanting to keep things in house and then riding on the "handmade in Britain" selling point. Sometimes evolution is better than revolution and it works for Orange I guess.
C6 thats a great reply and I guess at a subconscious level I'm miffed that Oranage and Whyte do not appear to have not made the same level of investment that some of bikes companies have,that might be part of the reason there is no carbon Orange bikes which is a shame. We need more Hopes and Renthals because it would be great to have British companies leading the way in mountain bike design and manufacturing as well mountain bike components.
Bottom line for me is simple, I'm happy you Orange owners are happy with your bikes, I just wish the more vocal of you paused for breath before having a go because I'm not part of your "tribe" and I have dared to say I think the Orange look is fugly. Happy riding peeps 😀
ps In the interests of fair play and balance I'm still waiting to be totally convinced by any form of VPP suspension and I have been testing and waiting for more years than I care to remember.
pb2, you appear to have missed my point. Can you tell me why Orange need to change the way they build bikes? They're as light and strong and stiff as all manner of fancier looking hydroformed alloy competitors! Composite is a different world - as another manufacturer (in a totally different market but one that also uses composites) I would generally avoid composites on an environmental and ethical basis. They're not nice to work with and they're very hard to recycle. NB: I don't own an Orange now and never have. And no-one I regularly ride with has one (lots of Yeti & Santa Cruz & Specialized, some Ibis, Transition, etc).
Chute,
Why hydroforming? Why would it improve things? I thought hydroforming tubes gave inconsistent wall thickness and therefor more prone to failure (lapierre).
Genuine question btw
The simplest way to explain the issue with counter rotating links is the leverage forces (rate) acting on the shock are not consistent. They've done their best with the Nomad but it still feels like the first 50% or travel is completely different to the second.
Perhaps that is the effect they wanted and it's actually designed rather than a problem. I can't fault the feel of the vpp bikes I've ridden, partly the change in short and longer travel is one of those things but as said it's more subjective than good or bad.
I doubt it to be honest. The leverage rate is the opposite to what everyone else (apart from Intense) is doing. The thing is they can't make the end result anything else unless the actuate the shock from the lower link like the V10. Still, considering the travel they did a pretty good job with the Nomad, the Bronson should have been an easier task with shorter travel/less pivot migration but I (and a few friends) found the suspension awful on that bike.
If that Nomad, with it's geo and build, had an Enduro back end bolted to it'd be the absolute tits.