[Closed] Salsa Cycles new suspension design

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Ohhhhhhhhh,

Seems odd though that they'd pay DW for something that does essentialy the same job as the original design. Not heard/seen any issues with the rear trinagles.

Looks interesting (as a spearfish owner). Not sure about the ugly cable guide on the side of the downtube and why no post-mount on the rear if they're re-tooling?

I suppose IS tabs allow anything and they don't want to leave anybody out!

IS tabs are easier to align on the frame maybe, and if they're out you can just face them? And the people bothered about weight (racers) probably want a 140mm disk anyway, which means everyone else would need addapters regardless.

[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]Ohhhhhhhhh,
Seems odd though that they'd pay DW for something that does essentialy the same job as the original design. Not heard/seen any issues with the rear trinagles.
I love the simplicity of the old(current) design too. Spearfish is on my bike bucket list. I like the look of that anodized blue but maybe I'll pick up a cheaper old version now 🙂

Why pay a DW licence when you can now use Horst since the patent has expired?

I like - just like a Devinci

maybe allows shorter chainstays? Looks burlier than the old one to me

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Seems odd though that they'd pay DW for something that does essentialy the same job as the original design

Trek tried that, and DW is suing them for infringement. And he's suing Giant too I think, over Maestro copying DW Link.

Why pay a DW licence when you can now use Horst since the patent has expired?

Evidently the split pivit works better than horst, otherwise they wouldn't be doing paying for it.

Presumably because the tube doesn't have to flex it can be made stiffer/lighter/stronger? Probably better under braking using the SP. Wonder if they are going the same way with the horsethief?

Seems odd though that they'd pay DW for something that does essentialy the same job as the original design

Trek tried that, and DW is suing them for infringement. And he's suing Giant too I think, over Maestro copying DW Link.

I meant, they've gone from a single pivot they were prosumably not paying a licence for, to a single pivot they are.

Personaly I can't see how any suspension design is patenable, they're all variations on a very narrow theme. DW's as bad as anyone, he's tried to patent puting the pivot either side of the horst link to cover more bases.

says its for both spearfish and horsethief

I sort of fancy something in the middle - a Horsefish or Spearthief

Do we know what travel the Spearfish will have this year?

Do we know what travel the Spearfish will have this year?

Still 80mm.

That would look good next to my Mukluk... 🙂

I'm just pleased to hear the HL patent has expired. Might not be a marketing man's wet dream but I still think it's a bloody good design. Wonder if Turner might be tempted back to their old designs.

Unlikely I know but a man needs to have a dream.

Surely it's still a single pivot technically? A linkage actuated one.

Surely it's still a single pivot technically?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

I meant, they've gone from a single pivot they were prosumably not paying a licence for, to a single pivot they are.

The Split Pivot is sipposed to be a bit more than a single pivot - the pivot is meant to separate braking/pedalling forces. Maybe marketing guff, maybe not, but they make out that the pivot being concentric with the axle is key - that's what the Trek lawsuit is all about (ABP)

looks really good, I do like the current design and they seem well priced compared to the extortionate prices of Niner and santa cruz etc, I wonder when it will breakcover officially, i'm guessing it won't be available until late this year

[url= http://chris-noble-mtb.blogspot.com ]chris-noble-mtb.blogspot.com[/url]

Wonder if Turner might be tempted back to their old designs.

can't see that happening as the feedback for the dw-link was so strong on the mtbr turner forum, which DT frequents.

What's the travel?

Please tell me it's a 650 😉

Yes, but the upper stay will remain level when braking (due to the orientation of the upper link), meaning braking remains consistent throughout the travel.

Ooh, I see. Sounds quite snazzy.

Interestingly sounds like the polar opposite of a Spearfish/Horsethief, where you'd get a massive spring rate curve as it has to fight against the flex stays.

Not sure how they can claim "Incredible pedaling efficiency", unless they're totally relying on shock technology. The pros/cons sounds very like a 4-bar surely?

The claimed weight is about the same as my Stumpy FSR 29er came in at. Will be interesting seeing how it does 🙂

Sorry to make a comment that doesn't involve bi-lateral pivot actuation but that blue finish is lovely!

Here's a pic of the Horsethief:

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I'm just pleased to hear the HL patent has expired

Wonder if Turner might be tempted back to their old designs

How will the new spearfish compare with these?

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Bit more info [url= http://ridingagainstthegrain.com/2013/06/19/salsa-split-pivot-the-real-mccoy/ ]HERE[/url]

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/salsa-cycles-spearfish-and-horsethief-first-look-37717/

http://www.dirtragmag.com/webrag/first-look-and-first-ride-impressions-2014-salsa-horsethief-and-spearfish

I'm liking the sound of the Horsethief more and more

Lets hope the UK pricing stays competitive and not another £1600 full suss frame set.

well they've gone up in the US - they have to pay a license fee

so I guess it will be up a few hundred quid

how much is the license fee?
I'm sure it was like £30 per frame for Horst Link.

well it would be nice if it's up only £30 but I bet it won't be!

£30 at manufacturing = £120 at retail though

I really like the sound of the horsethief. And then it's got a 92mm bb. I'm not convinced by them in the slightest. Arse 🙁

How will the new spearfish compare with these? Rubblefish pic

not sure and Trek are ditching the rubblefish design..

Surely the Rumblefish has just morphed into the EX 29ers

Hope they have cheaper mech-hangers this time round. Just been looking for one for my Horsethief - £45!!!! 😯

Surely the Rumblefish has just morphed into the EX 29ers

yes, but the arrangement of linkages etc is different

Seems odd though that they'd pay DW for something that does essentialy the same job as the original design. Not heard/seen any issues with the rear trinagles.

What,hold a back wheel into the frame? Having owned a spearfish and currently riding dw.. I can see why they have shifted. If the split pivot version is as good as or better than a standard dw design then the difference is night and day.

dw and split pivot are quite different.
In fact different implementations of both can be quite different to each other.

but you would expect it to be as good as or better (than dw). I can only imagine how much better it's going to be (than the original spearfish) Would love to try one.

I don't think split-pivot is supposed to be as good as dw-link, I thought it was supposed to be a more budget conscious design.

I don't know about that. The licensing is cheaper. It solves different problems.
DW is always going to have trouble fitting in around the seatpost/rear tyre - especially on aluminium bikes.

SP doesn't really help pedalling afaict, nor does it change axle path that much. It does isolate braking forces though.

As shocks get cleverer, SP might come into its own, but I'm still worried it'll be a bit 'dull', but I'd like a ride.

Hope they have cheaper mech-hangers this time round. Just been looking for one for my Horsethief - £45!!!!

Yeah, problem is it's not just a hanger, it's the dropout too really as it has the threads for the maxle. Cheaper than my old socom's dropouts at least :-/

TurnerGuy - Member

I don't think split-pivot is supposed to be as good as dw-link, I thought it was supposed to be a more budget conscious design.

Yeah - the idea is that it can be easily built onto frames without the kind of tube complication that DW requires.

http://www.split-pivot.com/performance.html

but you would expect it to be as good as or better (than dw). I can only imagine how much better it's going to be (than the original spearfish) Would love to try one.

My point was that split pivot, and the original designs are both linkage actuated single pivots. Both should pedal just as well as each other assuming the leverage curves and main pivot placement are the same. Dave Weagle might have breathed some magic on the numbers and sweaked the shock lverage, but that's something anyone could have done (given the knowlage/experience), the split pivot licence is presumably just a condition of him doing the rest of the design, because as a design it adds nothing (appart from dubious benifits of isolating the brake calliper which Mert Lawill did in the 80's) to the original flexy stays.

It looks to me like an exercise in beign new for the sake of it and with more words for the marketing department to get excited over. Heck it could even just be a dig at Trek.

I notice the swing link for the shock has moved from inside the frame to "in the crap from the rear wheel" which seems a backwards move to me...

I currently have a 2012 Horsethief, and my wife has a 2011 Spearfish. FWIW, I also used to own a Trek EX with split pivot (that they call APB). I also regularly use a Spesh FSR - so, I'm very interested to see what these new Salsa's are going to ride like.

IMO, the current Horsethief is a superb bike for the UK - relatively light frame weight, rides really well (once shock pressure is dialled in) and tolerant of grit & muck, so pretty low maintenance. However, for the terrain and way that I ride, there were a couple of things that I think would improve the bike - better performance under braking, and slightly shorter chainstays. TBH though, I only really notice these things once I get back on the Horsethief after riding the FSR for a few days - and both things can be compensated for to some extent.

Having ridden the Trek split pivot, I know that it was definitely up there with the FSR for braking grip - and I didn't really notice any of its single pivot-ness. I'd like to see how the shortened chainstays affect the descending stability of the new Horsethief, as the current model is really good in that respect (and yes, the current one can still be manualed, even with a heavy fork and 1kg tyre! - just don't ask me to do a massive 'coaster manual' :wink:)

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to trying the new Horsethief - anyone know expected release dates in the UK?