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Most of the “massive improvements” people see is usually down to shockingly badly set up caliper brakes. (either from the shop/far eastern sweatshop or by the home mechanic.)
100% this, I'm sure if more people had decent rim brakes to compare to, there'd be less fascination with disc brakes. My dad bought an all singing, all dancing new disc brake road bike and after two failed sets of Shimano callipers, he gave it another shot but then quietly just retired it back to the shed and carried on riding his old Mercian with Campag Veloce brakes and Mavic rims.
I don't see much need for disks on a skinny tyre road bike, they just add weight, and a skinny tyre can skid easily enough with callipers, so there's no need for more power.
But I have them on my bike with 2.35" Big Apples because that can use all the stopping power without skidding.
Should go nicely on my pink frameset, ti hardware as well so even less likely to corrode or get sticky when covered in salty grit all winter.
so there’s no need for more power.
Apparently it's all about the modulation.
Which shimano discs are well known for. Or not.
Maybe a cheaper upgrade path for the rim brake haters would be some decent cables and setting them up properly?
For all the posters stating UCI minimum weight limits for road bikes here’s a question. Has anyone ever had their bike weight checked at a race?
Ive been pulled up for a missing bar end cap and I know someone was disqualified for having no rear brake on a hill climb but I’ve never heard of a bike being weighed.
Quite a few top end bikes are now sub 6kg and I’ve seen a few of these at road races last year. The UCI minimum weight is 6.8kgs.
While I agree in theory these UCI rules apply to BC races in my experience I’ve never seen it enforced.
Please prove me wrong or stop quoting a rule that is not relevant.
Has anyone ever had their bike weight checked at a race?
Yes.
UK, Sweden, France, Germany, Belgium. Not for a few years though.
Never failed either. As it actually makes so little difference that it can be quite amusing to see the big deal that some make over it.
Please prove me wrong or stop quoting a rule that is not relevant.
Just because people aren't checking doesn't mean it isn't relevant. It's like 4th cats taking PEDs. It's against the rules but no one checks. So is it irrelevant?
I'm sure if having a light bike actually made as much difference as getting drugged up to the gills did, they'd be checking all the time.
Maybe you should point out that people are using illegally light bikes in races, in writing, to either the chief commisaire or BC and see what happens.
I don’t see much need for disks on a skinny tyre road bike, they just add weight, and a skinny tyre can skid easily enough with callipers, so there’s no need for more power.
Can't believe I'm wading in again, but there's a big difference between locking a wheel on a flat road in the dry and trying to scrub off speed in lashing rain down a 1:5 approaching a roundabout. Speaking from regular experience here. Discs please.
shockingly badly set up caliper brakes
So how do you set up a caliper brake badly?
I n r a t s, and for the pro disc lobby:
1. They are heavier
2. They are more expensive
3. Insignificant benefits in the dry
4. Through axles are slower and heavier, and unless you are incompetent mechanically, offer no benefit.
Not all of us regularly buy £1K+ road bikes. Rim brakes will be around forever .
Shit cables, unnecessarily tight curves/bad routing, overly long cable routing, badly trimmed ends, wrong lubricant, toe in, centering of the caliper, angle the pads hit the rim at, pads too close to the rim, pads too far from the rim, pads just cheap and shit. That's just on new bikes. Once you get the amateur hammer wielding "mechanic" or even the shop pros (LOL) touching them, it can get worse.
And then you have those who seem to think bikes work best with an annual clean and service.
TBH, until i'd done a few seasons working in bike shops, i thought bikes were easy to look after. Obviously not for everyone.
Is a disc frame cheaper to produce than a caliper frame?
Surely manufacturers will push the cheaper option, such as they have with press fit.
Molgrips
Can’t believe I’m wading in again, but there’s a big difference between locking a wheel on a flat road in the dry and trying to scrub off speed in lashing rain down a 1:5 approaching a roundabout. Speaking from regular experience here. Discs please.
I prefer disks too, but the last time I had the problem you're complaining about was with steel rims and cooked brake pads.
Surprised it's a regular experience, surely someone as knowledgeable as yourself would have figured out to approach a problem intersection like that slower after the first incident.
Everything that ghostlymachine said and (IMO) calipers look nice on a road bike.
As for riding in the rain,discs are superb but calipers with decent pads are no hardship ,just ride to suit the surface/conditions an all that.
If disks do become more universal, one thing that can be done is to have the brake hose tidied out of the way, ie run through the frame, and fork.
Add an electronically controlled hubgear and then roadbikes can have the clean lines of a fixed wheel bike. 🙂
as a dyed in the wool MTBer who had years of suffering rim brakes i'd never buy an off road bike without discs but as i only tend to ride the road in fair weather i'd go rim brakes for a nice lightweight summer bike. i'f i had to commute on one all year round i'd go disc, so two bikes please, make it three if there's a gravel bike option too
I would LOVE to move over to disc brakes, but the red line for me is how noisy they can be, especially in the sort of wet conditions that disc brakes are supposed to be so good in.
i can't say i've ever suffered squealy brakes that haven't been caused by wear or poor set up, but you are saying yours squeal when they are perfect? that's a warranty issue. or are you saying every pair you've ever tried squeal? if that's so even with you disclaimer stating someone will say they are set up wrongly, they are set up wrongly
I've got discs (BR685s) on my winter bike, Super Record calipers on the summer one.
No 2 ways about it, the caliper system is a HELL of a lot lighter, and to my hands, better modulated. In the dry, they're as usefully powerful as the discs are (ie I can pull stoppies and I can hold the back wheel on the point of lockup), in damp conditions, I actually really struggle with the feel of the discs and finding the lockup point - I've dropped the rear to a 140mm rotor which has helped, but I still find I mince downhill in slippery conditions more on the disc bike than I do on the caliper one (same brand of tyres - winter bike has slightly wider ones).
Where the discs win is guaranteed minimum performance in piss wet conditions, plus not having to wash grey filth off the wheels and frame every time I go out in the wet to keep some kind of stopping power. I've had no noise issues.
but you are saying yours squeal when they are perfect?
Squeal only in wet, until they heat up or dry off. Work fine in the dry which I think rules out most of the common complaints (contamination, dirt, alignment).
I don't pretend to be a professional mechanic, but I have the correct tools (Hayes alignment gauge, various brands of disc brake cleaner) and know most of the common tricks. I've frequently sanded rotors back to original finish, I bed in by performing frequent hard stops but not completely locking the wheel, I deglaze pads frequently, etc. etc. Had the shop face the post mounts so I know they're flush.
I've used SRAM brakes with stock centreline rotors which were heinous in the wet. Changed to sintered pads (shop recommendation) which were unbelievably pad, and also made noise in the dry. Changing pads to Uberbike kevlar improved it slightly. Changing rotors to Magura Storm SL improved slightly again. Eventually changed brakes to TRP Spyres. Still fairly bad (again, just in the wet).
Even if I AM doing something wrong, I think it completely belies this notion that disc brakes are maintenance free, and I'll be ****ed if I spend any more money changing pads, rotors or brakes in an effort to solve the problem. It shouldn't require this much effort and guess work to get a set of brakes working properly.
I'll say this, if I can ever be bothered I'd like to go to a demo day and ride a high end bike with some high end shimano discs, see what they're like in the wet. From the noises I hear on my commute I know there are plenty of other people with discs that honk in the wet.
edit: oh, and although I don't have much faith in the mechanics at my local Alpine Bikes, when they eventually returned the bike having given up trying to silence the brakes, they admitted that something like 50% of their time was spent trying to silence disc brakes...
Another thing to bear in mind is the plethora of OE branded brakes that seem to be fitted to so so many low to mid range road bikes these days.
They're, on the whole, utterly dire.
What would you expect from a pair of calipers that the manufacturer is probably paying (significantly) less than 10 dollars a pair for? Rather than paying 20 dollars a pair for 105. (or 30 for ultegra to match the groupset.)
I'm not surprised that people say that disc braked bikes are essential on the road, when a lot of the bikes they have come from (or would be comparing to) have sub 10 dollar brakes, with pads made from compressed yogurt pots.
I’m not surprised that people say that disc braked bikes are essential on the road, when a lot of the bikes they have come from (or would be comparing to) have sub 10 dollar brakes, with pads made from compressed yogurt pots.
Hey. That's a bit unfair.
They're more-often made from melted down wheelie bins.
but the last time I had the problem you’re complaining about was with steel rims and cooked brake pads.
Hard to explain then isn't it?
Surprised it’s a regular experience, surely someone as knowledgeable as yourself would have figured out to approach a problem intersection like that slower after the first incident.
Well I do, that's why I'm still alive. But I don't fancy heaving hard on brakes whilst trundling slowly down steep descents in case my speed gets too high and I can't stop, and worrying what happens if someone pulls out or some other emergency happens when I'm already on max braking. I'd rather have brakes that just work properly like I do on my MTBs.
It shouldn’t require this much effort and guess work to get a set of brakes working properly.
Wonder why it's so hard on road bikes when it's easy on MTBs?
I really hope that calipers don't die off in the road bike world for two reasons:
1. I am one of those traditionalists that molgrips referred to, and
2. The introduction of new technology seems to work on a steep curve. For decades, road bikes hardly changed. Then, within 10 or 15 years, they have gone through so many changes, it has impossible to keep up.
I know it is magical thinking, but I wish developments could happen on a more evolutionary, as opposed to revolutionary, scale.
Some brake pads, earlier.
Wonder why it’s so hard on road bikes when it’s easy on MTBs?
Who knows, lighter frames allowing more resonance? Less grit and mud acting to disrupt the film of water between pad and disc? Maybe MTBs use their brakes more so they actually heat up a bit (I know I had issues with my brakes over heating on the MTB, never an issue on the road bike, who actually brakes that much and that hard on your typical British roads? Cairngorms and Lake District excluded...). Maybe road discs actually are constantly covered in oily grime from the roads when MTB discs aren't.
Maybe when I rode MTB I was more inclined to put up with squeely brakes as the benefits of disc brakes on an MTB actually made it worthwhile...
I'm about to build my third road bike with disc brakes. First was a donor for the second, second was stolen. In shitty conditions I'd prefer to stick with discs... I've had one too many times when I've barely stopped for a junction or corner on steep hills around here and although discs are not perfect, they're better than rim brakes.
As for the screaming, sure, it happens sometimes but by no means all the time.
MTB disc brakes used to be much squealier, I'm sure.
Thinking of Avid Juicies in particular.
I think it’s a cultural thing.
I have no desire to buy any bike with rim brakes and so won’t. For me, even cable Spyres are superior in every way, but that’s a personal choice
I also have no desire to ride in a club peloton so don’t need to pay as much attention to the opinions of others.
If people want to stick with rim brakes then that’s their decision IMO.
I guess I’m a road bike traditionalist. Still on capilpers and cable gears rather than discs and electric gears. The reason why discs are so good on MTB is that they work so much better than v brakes in the mud and keep working. However its not the same on road bikes. 25years of racing, riding all over Europe, have I every felt that I couldn’t slow down and stop sufficiently? No. Have I seen plenty of people who couldn’t modulate road discs lock up and crash (yes one in front of me at the Hell of the Ashdown a couple of weeks ago) yes. So not really for me. Maybe there are some small advatanges to lack of maintenance on a disc winter bike but I don’t exactly spend lots of time fettling my rim brakes and when I need to change pads it’s as quick as discs
I can't see calipers going away in a hurry: commuters, hybrids, just plain and simple 'bikes' will have them for years to come if you ask me. However I think we will see a shift (and we are) towards discs on road bikes, certainly at the general consumer rather than racing market.
An eye opener for me was a gravel rally down on the med coast last March. It was a one day event with rally style timed gravel sections and non-timed transitions on the road. The weather was atrocious: really heavy rain and the local red earth getting washed out- the area is notorious for flooding damage. The event got cancelled around lunch-time. Most were on drop barred bikes equipped with discs and most had gone through numerous sets of pads, and lots had in-operative brakes. I was on my Uncle John with cantis which performed faultlessly.
Getting hold of pads seemed a real issue: there were that many different types.
The reason why discs are so good on MTB is that they work so much better than v brakes in the mud and keep working. However its not the same on road bikes.
No, it's heavy rain that does it on road bikes. If you never ride on steep hills in heavy rain then you'll probably not have experineced it.
I was on my Uncle John with cantis which performed faultlessly.
I've found that my Avid cantis are pretty poor in the dry and very poor in wet, and often wonder if people who clamour for discs are recalling their canti experience. My TRP mini-Vs are magnificent off-road on my cross bike. My dual pivot Dura Ace, Ultegra and long drop R650 calipers are magnificent and stop me in all conditions on the road.
I brake on alloy rims, except in road races, where I run carbon. I'm not racing down the alps though. Skinny carbon low profile rims? Discs may have a place, and I would always want small unobtrusive 120-140 mm mechanical for maintenance. Alloy rims and UK hills, not found the need.
And I like the shiny of the Dura Ace - I know, shameful!
For me, braking performance isn't the compelling issue. The real wins for discs are the lack of constraint on tyre size, the lack of rim wear, and—probably most of all—the lack of horrible black rubber-and-aluminium paste that endlessly coats and stains everything.
But then any obsolescence of calipers will be driven by suppliers' economic imperatives and consumers' desires: actual performance is only one part of that balance.
Personally I don't see them becoming obsolete, but I do see them becoming niche.
Molgrips. I’ve ridden plenty of big hills in the rain on calipers - come off alpine descents in torrential rain, raced big hills in torrential rain and never felt that braking was an issue. Lack of tyre grip is the issue in those conditions not brake bite. Read back and see just how condescending your message was.
These Weinmann Centre Pull brakes are what I have on my commuter (well, just the front as it's fixed wheel). Ancient but still more powerful than the Campag Record on my other road bike. I got my first pair in about 1966 and I still think they're lovely. And, for rim brakes, never beaten.
In response to “well they disappeared quick enough on MTBs”,
In a similar vein, look at the uptake of suspension on road bikes - and that's been available for a lot longer.
It's a different bike for different things.
The brakes on a road bike don't allow you to go faster - and discs add a little weight and a little aero penalty, and extra cost, so why would you buy them if you're going to race? Also, they work adequately in the wet - perhaps with a bit of rim wear, but they work well enough - MTB rim brakes never did for any length of time.
They're great for an all season bike - I run them on the commuter - but I wouldn't put them on my summer bike unless they ceased to exist on decent quality bikes. And I only run them for the decreased rim wear, the power on rim brakes was fine on all my previous commuters.
Hydraulic integrated rim brakes might be a top level option as I can imagine you could make them lighter and more aero than a traditional caliper, and many TT/aero bikes already do funky things with the brakes for aero purposes. The availability of hydraulic road brake levers can only be an enabler for this.
Anyway, those that say I need discs on my road bike, you don't know me and maybe you don't know how to maintain a brake. 🙂
No, it’s heavy rain that does it on road bikes. If you never ride on steep hills in heavy rain then you’ll probably not have experineced it.
I live in Devon, ride a lot of Dartmoor, Exmoor and the Blackdowns, it's frequently pissing it down, and the hills are steep, I have no bother stopping or slowing on my rim brake bikes on the road, likewise on my disc brake bikes.
If not pro or anti disc really, right now though I simply have no compelling reason to go for discs on my road bikes. There are however several good reasons to do so, and several good reasons not to do so, so it's a case of weighing them up and making your own decision.
That doesn't mean someone who makes a different decision is wrong, it just means their requirements and preferences are different, and that's OK.
Rim brakes will never go away, they'll always be around in some form another, both at the budget end and the boutique, but they are going to be mainstream and dare I say it, the default before long.
it’s frequently pissing it down, and the hills are steep, I have no bother stopping or slowing on my rim brake bikes on the road, likewise on my disc brake bikes.
Do you have roundabouts or T junctions immediately at the bottom of said steep hills?
I can't explain it otherwise. I pull the lever and I barely slow down. You never get this? You are ok with it? I'm not. I mean, I can scrub off speed eventually, but there's no capacity for emergency stop of any kind. Eventually isn't really good enough.
First 105 then Ultegra, stock pads, both similar. No obvious setup issues that I can see.
Rather than becoming obsolete I'd suggest that manufacturers will reduce choice as they're trying to push disc braked bikes.
I have both, and they have differing good and bad points.
I'm not going to force anyone to go down either route it's up to you.
BigJohn
These Weinmann Centre Pull brakes are what I have on my commuter (well, just the front as it’s fixed wheel). Ancient but still more powerful than the Campag Record on my other road bike. I got my first pair in about 1966 and I still think they’re lovely. And, for rim brakes, never beaten.
A classy commuter with Nervex Pro lugs. 🙂
I'd say the same about my Mafac Racers, but I fitted Weinmann to my wife's bikes. Good cables routed properly, the right pads, and they stop really well.
Just out of interest (and not trying to score points or anything) - would the road disc superfans here admit to being a bit nervous on a road bike?
No, it’s heavy rain that does it on road bikes. If you never ride on steep hills in heavy rain then you’ll probably not have experineced it.
Really? I've lived in (very) hilly places. You could almost call them mountainous, and never had an issue. But then it's always been regularly serviced, well looked after brakes with good pads.
The real wins for discs are the lack of constraint on tyre size, the lack of rim wear, and—probably most of all—the lack of horrible black rubber-and-aluminium paste that endlessly coats and stains everything.
Which is why i'd have discs on a training bike, as when the weather is that bad you need the bigger tyres, brakes eat rims and you really generate a lot of brake juice. Guards help too..... but i'm not spending 1000-1200 to upgrade my perfectly functional training bike to discs.
If i was racing in that sort of weather, i can fit 28s in my current bike and it got scrubbed clean after every race (and no guards in racing anyway. So i'm going to get shitted up to the nth degree anyway. White kit is a bad idea whatever you do.) And tyres only last a month, of racing so grubby sidewalls have never really become an issue......
Just hoping calipers don't become obsolete before i get my next road bike, my current favorite is getting on a bit. The next one should (hopefully) last as long. With caliper brakes.
Do you have roundabouts or T junctions immediately at the bottom of said steep hills?
Yes, T junctions, crossroads, sharp bends, tractors, ponies, sheep, stone walls, all the usual countryside hazards, and obviously the urban ones too when not on the moor.
I pull the lever and I barely slow down. You never get this? You are ok with it? I’m not.
No I don't experience that, so hence there's no issue with me being 'OK with it' as it's not something I experience, my brakes* work, even in the rain**, hard to believe maybe but true! Apart from the initial scrub-to-bite sensation there's not much difference in terms of available deceleration, and that sensation is only an issue upon first application after a while of being wet with no use, and happens with the discs too, marginally quicker to bite with the discs but we're only talking a second or less.
I can’t explain it otherwise
Likewise, I can't explain why none of my club mates overshoot all the junctions and die a horrible death everytime we go for a ride in the rain, yet miraculously they're all still alive, and even more miraculously we don't suffer disc-brake induced pile-ups when the disc riders are at the front of the group either 😉
*Ultegra 6600 (so not even current gen.) on short drop bikes, R650s/A550/Tektro 559 on long drop bikes, with a mix of either Koolstop Salmon, Swisstop, or Fibrax pads.
EDIT - oh yeah, one bike has Centaur Skeletons, they work too.
*Sure, they make terrible noises and grind my rims away, but they still work.
Likewise, I can’t explain why none of my club mates overshoot all the junctions and die a horrible death everytime we go for a ride in the rain
Just to be clear, that's not what I'm suggesting happens.
I have a feeling that your definition of 'work ok' is not the same as mine.
They won’t become obsolete. Too many traditionalists in road. See above.
Well until the the traditionalists become obsolete.
Full carbon wheels and calipers are grim in the wet thou 🙂
Just to be clear, that’s not what I’m suggesting happens.
Just to be uber-clear, the smiley indicates it was in jest anyway 😉
I'd be pretty fed up, not to mention scared if I suffered the kind of braking you described too. Being able to stop safely is a fairly key requirement and I wouldn't put up with it either. If disc brakes have solved that problem for you then that's fine, but I'm just a tiny bit irked that you're implying it's the only solution to that problem, and also that you extrapolate from your own experience that anyone else using rim brakes must also suffer that same woeful performance, we don't. Some may do, but not everyone, so clearly there's more to it than just the brake type.
I have a feeling that your definition of ‘work ok’ is not the same as mine.
Maybe, maybe not, my definition of 'work ok' is:
"good enough that I don't find disc brake bikes offer me any braking advantage over rim brake bikes for road use"
It offers me other things like lack of rim wear, wider choice of tyres, less black gunge over everything etc. But braking performance is not something I find lacking on my rim brake bikes, even in bad weather.
As some form of 'proof' though, not that it is, but anyway... I do most of my riding on a rim braked bike, by choice, even though I have a disc braked bike available to me. And the last 2 bikes I bought and built were deliberately rim brake.
Like I said, I have no compelling reason to go disc*. Others have chosen differently, I'm OK with that.
* for 'normal' road riding, for commuting and touring it's a different matter, once you add a few panniers worth of weight and/or a trailer I find the discs do offer more power, but then I've got a lot more weight to deal with there so different kettle of fish.