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I dislike the term Punishment Pass, it kind of softens it. A driver deliberately tried to hit me with his vehicle is factually more actuate and sounds as dangerous as it really is.
I don't mind the term, it captures the vindictive attitude some drivers have.
It's more like firing a gun next to someone to scare them than actually aiming at them, eh? Shame it's not treated the same as that by the authorities.
A few years back I had a driver do this to me one afternoon on the A2 at Bromley. There was no reason for him to do this to me, he simply pulled alongside and got way to close, close enough for me to thump on his window and shout "You're too close!".
Sure enough, he ended up in stationary traffic a couple of hundred yards further on. I asked him what he thought he was doing, and he threatened to kill me.
Now, I did something very silly indeed. I challenged him back and asked him to step out of his car and make good on his threat. I'm a big bloke, but I am by no means a fighter, but the bluff was enough for him to remain sat inside his car, lock the doors and mouth off at me. In the end I calmed down enough to point and laugh at him for driving a Nissan Almera, but there's no winners in a shouting contest in the street.
It could so easily have gone differently.
I bought myself a bullet cam and had a long think about how I handled the situation. There have been several subsequent occasions when drivers have passed me at a pinch point and nearly knocked me off. On those occasions, I made a conscious effort to remain calm and assertive, to explain why their driving was unsafe and as someone else has already done - ask them if they realise that they nearly orphaned my kids. All you can ask for is an apology in acknowledgement and hopefully they'll not repeat the mistake. Once I learned to accept this, I received an apology on each and every occasion I caught up with a driver who'd been responsible for a near miss on me.
You'll always get arseholes who feel a psychological need to project their power on you when they're sat in two tonnes of metal. Don't play their game.
[i]His explanation for why he did it was because I was 'all over the road', which of course I wasn't.[/i]
they always have some bloody excuse or justification for it.
But what it comes down to is that they are a effing prick.
Just call em a effing prick. Worked for me in making me feel better.
(Over 600 views on that video now.)
Well I don't know about anyone else, but I feel a lot better for having shared and read other people's responses.
The confrontation thing, hmmm, I reached the level of 3rd dan black belt back in 2003 but since then I haven't trained, I've broken my arm and collar bones several times and I've lost quite a lot of upper body strength. I still know in my head what to do, but I don't have the confidence that it would be effective. Once or twice I've been called out for a confrontation and this, combined with a) being on a bike and b) being in cleated shoes (your ability to move out of the way of an attack quickly is 70% of not getting hit in the first place) mean that I've had to consciously teach myself a different response.
The 'have you got kids, because I do and I love them more than anything and just want to go home to them of an evening', was how I got my head round the desire to be angry, aggressive and confrontational. But it's not easy. I have to really work at it to maintain control and with adrenaline pumping that's not easy.
A lot of cars just pass too close without it being a 'punishment pass'. I always try to talk nicely to the drivers if I can and just explain, very politely and respectfully that they were just too close, that they need to give the same amount of room as a small car and most of the time, we always part on very friendly terms and I feel that a great outcome.
The punishment pass is different though. On wearing a helmet cam, I think if anything it will help to keep me calm. It will give me assurance that I have evidence to back me up, that I have something to give to the police even if they can't do anything and it also means I'll be more aware of my behaviour, i.e. if I know I'm being recorded and that the footage is there to back me up, I know I need to behave more reasonably.
One last thing. Last summer a guy I subsequently caught up did a really silly manouvere to avoid waiting in line to turn right. At the lights, with his window down, I simply said 'you know I saw what you did and that was really daft'. The guy tensed, then paused and said 'I'm really sorry it was. I've just had a terrible day at work and not enough sleep'. I shook that guys hand and said I thought he was a better man than most for that reaction and he should feel very proud of himself.
[possibly pointless personal campaign]
chakaping - Member
I dislike the term Punishment Pass, it kind of softens it. A driver deliberately tried to hit me with his vehicle is factually more actuate and sounds as dangerous as it really is.
I don't mind the term, it captures the vindictive attitude some drivers have.
would like to change the term - as said above (by me) ^^^ "coward's pass" get it labelled that [/possibly pointless personal campaign]
Was reading this with interest this morning as i live rural and never rely had this issue, some cars will always pass too close but that will never change.
Low and behold on my way back to work after lunch i got run off the road by a HGV. I met him head on on a twisty single track road. When i first came into his vision he was at a passing place but he horsed on until he forced me onto the grass blasting his horn as he went past.
All happened so fast I didn't relay have time to get any vehicle details although i have a fair idea who it was but I am not relay the confrontational type so will probably just let it go .
I think even considering getting into fisticuffs is bloody silly. You're simply making a bad situation worse and any sense of being the aggrieved, quickly changes.
Talking to people is often pointless as the default reaction is defensiveness which manifests itself as more aggression.
You're much better off keeping a good record (camera) and badgering the life out of the professionals to do something about it. Channel your energy into being a pain in the arse to the local Chief Constibule rather than getting beaten or stabbed by some ne'er do well.
I think even considering getting into fisticuffs is bloody silly.
True but I don't think consideration has much to do with it. It's more likely the product of an autonomic response. Levels of testosterone vary greatly and has a big impact on your instinctive reaction.
@gt1972 Sorry, I meant in this discussion. I've never been in any physical confrontation in my life, in training or otherwise and I got very close to fighting with someone last year. It was bloody silly; middle aged IT professional fights OAP nonsense (he was a big bugger mind 😉 ).
Never again. You hear so many tales of 'one punch and he banged his head' deaths. It really is not worth it. If we can't exercise control over ourselves, how can we expect others to do the same?
<edit> on that video there, I was thinking about a spring loaded centre punch. It's amazing how less aggressive people can become when there's no glass...
Three things need to happen to make the roads safe enough for me ride on them....
1. The stress needs to be take out of driving. Car drivers are already trying to kill each other never mind cyclists.
2. Car drivers need to learn how cyclists ride and why.
3. Enforcement for bad driving must stop focussing purely on speed and consider all forms of dangerous driving. And be properly enforced, not via points or fines.
1 ain't going happen - too many factors involved.
2 could be done, but even starting now in tests leaves lots of already qualified drivers ignorant.
3 doesn't generate revenue / win votes so isn't going to happen.
So I guess I'm staying off the roads then!
laugh at him for driving a Nissan Almera
Chain cam, economical, reasonable insurance what's not to like?
And that's why it's call the life saver look.......
The changing peoples behaviour thing won't work. The Dutch just separate cars from bikes and pedestrians, by and large it works well and there are a lot less opportunities for aggressive, thoughtless or incompetent drivers to kill and injure cyclists and pedestrians. This thread has been great for highlighting the ways of dealing with aggressive driving, but the long term solution is Dutch style segregated high quality infrastructure. It will benefit everyone.
The Dutch just separate cars from bikes and pedestrians
...or that. But I'm not holding my breath on that either.
GT1972 - by "talking" to him at the lights you probably had exactly the effect he desired. He's probably on Facebook right now telling his mates how he really wound up a cyclists.
Many years ago I used to chase after and talk to drivers. I ended up stopping cycling. Then I took up MTB and had loads of fun in the peace and quiet, and since then have gone back to the road but avoid busy places where I can and try to remember that I am riding for fun not an argument.
The changing peoples behaviour thing won't work.
We did it with racism and homophobia not to mention attitudes towards drink driving. I honestly don't see this as being too dissimilar. The mechanism of change is the same. You make people very aware of the problem while at the same time sending a very clear message that that kind of behaviour/attitude/belief is just not acceptable. This makes that thing become socially unacceptable which in turn forces people to review their beliefs. Most/many will change as a result. You will always get the die hard minority but your strategy for them is to marginalise them. This is exactly what has happened with people who express racists and/or homophobic beliefs.
Having thought about this a bit more, screw punishment pass and cowards pass, it's a hit and run or at least an attempted hit and run
Not in Amsterdam, they don't - it's utter chaosThe changing peoples behaviour thing won't work. The Dutch just separate cars from bikes and pedestrians
I see that as a good thing though; saw no aggression while I was there recently, just lots of slow driving/cycling/walking and careful looking around, apparently by everyone
I commuted for the first time since Jan yesterday, combination of reasons due to working all over and family stuff, 3 incidents ranging from dangerous pass (on the hospital campus too, on a bend) to driver turning left across me. Made me wonder if it's worth it, driver's minds on other things, not aware of all road users and as the OP said, I want to get home to my family each day. Very rarely get these issues on a weekend ride, predominantly commuting. I've a short temper too, so usually mouth off, a couple of times they've had their windows down and have stopped to remonstrate, clearly I should ride on but how does the message get across they're being dangerous in their driving?
Go Pro and then a call to the Police?
I think even considering getting into fisticuffs is bloody silly. You're simply making a bad situation worse and any sense of being the aggrieved, quickly changes.
That depends, the worst injuries I've seen happen to people are when they've tried to stay calm and talk the other person down and then they've been bottled/sucker punched by the aggressor.
If someone gets out their car and threatens you, scream at them to back off and leave your personal space - then try to extricate yourself - if you can't and they don't back off - do whatever's necessary to make sure they can't hurt you. Going to magistrates court to prove self defense is better than ending up in a coma, people are unpredictable and one swing from a big bloke could potentially end your life.
And when I mean scream, I mean abusing Basra POW's type screaming like this - if you launch into a tirade like that asking someone to back off - most people will get the willies and leave. It also alerts witnesses to the incident.
Christ Tom, not sure where you live but it ain't Basra like round 'ere. I get your point but it's best not to get into a situation where you need to use volume to defend yourself.
Avoidance is the best policy.
Is it worth mentioning that these;
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Go for very cheap on ebay?
I fell out with a long term friend after the conversation turned to how dangerous it was to cycle on the roads and him smugly telling me about the [s]punishment[/s] cowards pass he'd recently performed on a cyclist he deemed was riding unsafely.
Figure out that logic:
- riding your bike on the road is dangerous,
- that cyclist has just done something stupid putting himself at risk
- therefore I'm going to to teach him a lesson by passing far too closely.
He didn't appreciate me pointing out how much of a t**t he'd made himself look.
As a consolation I remind myself he's fat, miserable, dangerously unfit and hasn't had a girlfriend in 20 years.
Its amazing the number of people I consider friends, who know I cycle and yet are happy to complain about cyclists to me & how they feel like doing something to them.
Ive stopped associating with a couple of them because of their comments.
Riding primary helps prevent a punishment pass in the first place, and helps give you somewhere to go if someone does try it...
There's a stretch of road in SE London I ride which is 20mph limit, pedestrian refuges and speed cushions all down it - presumably because it's straight and fairly wide so v tempting to speed down it, despite it being residential.
I often have drivers trying to push past which would mean coming way to close to me so I just ride properly primary and give lots of looks back to remind them I'm a human. Sure I get leaning on the horn and some abuse when there's space to pass further down (despite the fact they have to break the 20mph limit to do so) but as I don't leave space for a punishment pass, it doesn't happen... and overall I feel far more in control and therefore it's less stressful.
From what you've said OP, going primary earlier on and before the road narrowed would have helped this. I also find a lifesaver or signal before moving into primary can help too
Brooes I was in primary position setting off from the lights. That's what caused him to be pissed off in the first place. I get why riding in primary position is important but he passed me when technically it was safe to do so; nothing coming from the opposite direction, wide road etc. You can't deliberately hold traffic up forever and doing so makes people far more irritated so that when they do eventually pass you, they are more likely to do this kind of thing.
Didn't someone here mention that the Green Party have said they would introduce an assumed liability law in cases where a cyclist has been knocked off/killed? I Couldn't be more opposed to their economic policies but I might just vote for them on the basis of that proposed change.
we are roadkill, we have absolutely no legal protection from idiots in cars and until that changes we remain in the set hedgehog, pheasant, cat, rabbit, badger, cyclist.
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Maybe this , with ' Please ' up top?
There are different types of punishment passes, and its not always deliberate. There are the 'Im coming through if you wobble round that man hole' type ones. The 3rd car in line who blindly folloes car #1 and car #2 just as the Ocadao van comes round the corner ,, simply shite driving and impatience
Then there are the aimed to brush pass as close as possible with intent to scare you into the gutter , with no oncoming traffic , and no road furniture forcing them to get too personal.
I am going to road rage another driver one day as I drive alot C500 miles a week, so see some atrocious behaviour. Texting on motorways mostly , litter being launched , and punishmnet / misjudged overtakes .
I overtook a roady on my way back from a mtb ride. Coach coming the other way , I had space and time so nice and wide , guy behind slows to wait, then goes when adjancent to the coach giving the roady about 6" of free air. tosser.
Bit of a long post, sorry, but interested on your thoughts...
Another interesting thread.... Not sure getting tooled up with glass hammers and spring loaded punches will really hellp. I'm quite protective of my car and that would really wind me up irrespective of the circumstances.. think about what happens when someone bumps your car in the supermarket for instance...
I wonder if there is anything to help use a bike in a way so it can protect you if confronted... thinking stand with the frame between you and the other person.... maybe something on YouTube.
And lastly, I would be interested in reading something about how we all learn to drive. Not the mechanical bit of gears, steering etc etc, but how we learn and develop the attitude we (yes, me, you, everyone), adopt when driving... Different countries / cultures are different in this respect.
The attitude to smoking and alcohol free beer has been changed slowly.... maybe the attitude to driving and other road users needs the volume turning down from 11 to something lower like 5, so how does that happen ?
There are some TFL documents re car drivers and cyclists which make interesting reading and non mention technical ability to operate a vehicle, most mention the impression of other road drivers in comparison to "me, my journey, my car and my desire to reach my destination" and you are obstructing me.
Completely vindicated by crazy overtakes and conversations at the lights when the cyclist has caught the driver up...
I think driving is only stressful because we deal with it and interact with others in a manner which makes it so.
Aggressive, selfish and competitive. (I've said it before comparing UK to other countries, its a cultural style perhaps).
Take the 4x4 / BMW story up there ^^^ . 4x4 chugging steadily along... BMW driver says "You made me drive that way" Sorry, no. You made you drive that way....
Yep cyclists do dumb things too (RLJ etc), but thats for the police or a quiet word... why do drivers need to become " armed educators" ?
Couldn't you just have done the same to him at the lights, passed to close to him, accidentally raking your metal handlebar ends along the side of the vehicle?
Just thumping on the side of your car with your fist makes a pretty loud and surprising noise inside the vehicle. It might make them think about how close they could have come to actually causing an accident.
You need to be prepared for just even more anger of course.
I Couldn't be more opposed to their economic policies but I might just vote for them on the basis of that proposed change.
Hmmmm...something to think about.
rickmeister - Member ......I think driving is only stressful because we deal with it and interact with others in a manner which makes it so.
and we create a lifestyle (horrible word) and an economy which is "busy" and need us to get from A to B whilst dropping at C and sorting out D and totally reliant on cars to do it plus rather than order for example the car parts or tyres the garage knows they will need later in the week - its order am deliver pm same on food for pubs, plasterboard etc etc and then we all get fed up with the obvious tactics of a totally selfish minority
had my picture in the local paper with my daughter and her school chums who'd successfully campaigned for a crossing on a main commuter road near there school - got finger waived at me by someone I vaguely new as a parent at the school - conversation went something like "bloody crossing, I have to leave home 5 minutes earlier now". me "really?". her "it's alright for you, you can walk to school, I have to drop the kids and get to work" me "breakfast club at the school is in danger of closing because not enough people use it". her "f you"
sorry long story and I wasn't sympathetic, I know not everyone can control their lives but just making the effort to leave 5 minutes earlier and be responsible for your own actions when driving would make a big difference to safety for vulnerable road users
and don't get me started on how we need so much expensive and dislocating road infrastructure to deal with peak hour traffic
People think more about their cars than they do us. Fact. We got run off the road on the tandem, single track road, only room for one vehicle at a time and the bloke charged past pushing us off the road.
He stopped very soon after and I had a word. He treat us with total dismissive contempt until I slapped the side of his 4x4. It made a massive noise but obviously no damage.
At that point he wanted to 'engage' and went into a bit of a rage being very very rude in the process. That's when I decided the Marquise of Queensbury should be employed (to my eternal shame).
Idiotic, selfish act escalates into near brawl. Not a good day for anyone.
This has to stop.
I do think drivers and cyclists are getting further apart though at the minute. As a non-commuting cyclist I find myself having to google half the phrases and terms used in these threads. Inventing a new lexicon helps cyclists discuss these issues with each other, but it doesn't help educate drivers to what they are doing wrong. As someone said earlier - drop the fancy terms and call incidents for what they are.
The phrase "don't attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by stupidity" is very apt here too. The vast majority of drivers do not realize they are causing any danger. Drivers are used to squeezing through gaps in towns and cities with inches to spare between them and other vehicles, the roads would be a standstill if they didn't. So telling them they need to give cyclists as much room as they do other cars is just moronic. They should do exactly the opposite in most cases!!
I have been in cars with drivers behind a bike in primary (a term they had never hear of) and they genuinely thought the cyclist was being a ****er deliberately. This stuff needs explaining.
Plenty of good ideas for retribution on this thread. I don't think that approach will end good for anyone. The jersey with the sign above isn't a bad idea but maybe someone less patronising like "I need more room than you think" or such.
Proper infrastructure is the answer. But better coping tactics for the current situation could be used I think. At the minute the roads seem to be getting more dangerous and both sides of the solution are drifting further apart.
Didn't someone here mention that the Green Party have said they would introduce an assumed liability law in cases where a cyclist has been knocked off/killed?
Presumed/Strict Liability would be a good step forward in my opinion, not just for HGVs (as Natalie Bennett was pushing) but for all drivers.
Sadly lots of people are massively against it, often with no real understanding of what it actually means.
Just read the negative comments from fellow cyclists on the road.cc coverage of this story:
People typically complain that it is [i]"guilty till proven innocent - that's not the way UK justice works"[/i], despite the fact that it relates to civil liability, [i]not[/i] criminal guilt, and that we already use presumed liability in other cases (i.e. when hit from behind in your car).
We are one of only five EU countries (along with Cyprus, Malta, Romania and Ireland) that does not operate system of strict liability for vulnerable road users.
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More good info here:
http://www.cycling-accident-compensation.co.uk/strict-liability.aspx
I haven't read all of the posts here, and clearly anyone in car has a responsibility, being in a protected hard shell, to ensure the safety of those who don't, i.e. cyclists, walkers etc. I always overtake bikes as if they are a car i.e. in the other half of the road.
HOWEVER...I do think it would be good if cyclists could try to be considerate at times too, there should be a two way relationship. I am a mtb'er so spend as little time on the road as I can, but often end up on a long uphill slog on the road back to my house having gotten over-enthusiatic with the downhill near to me. My approach to cycling up this long windy uphill is that if a car is coming I stop and let them past. This takes a couple of seconds, and saves me the horrible feeling of a car driving slowly behind me, and helps the motorist. Too often I see road bikers cycling 2 abreast up or along a windy road, pointedly not getting out of the way as if to prove a point. I don't give them abuse or try to drive close to them but I wish they would try to be considerate too.
Equally on a very narrow road if I see a cyclist coming towards me I will often stop my car to let them go by. Do they give me a thank you? Most of the time - no, they just cycle by without a sign that they have even noticed! I get the impression that most cyclists view car drivers as the enemy, even though they will largely drive themselves quite often.
Anyway my point is that if both sides could try to be helpful to each other things might work out a lot better!
I have been in cars with drivers behind a bike in primary (a term they had never hear of) and they genuinely thought the cyclist was being a **** deliberately. This stuff needs explaining.
Some campaigns do try, but they get largely ignored.
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http://think.direct.gov.uk/cycling.html
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GrahamS - I'm not inclined to be against assumed liability, but do road safety stats bear out that those countries that don't have it also have the most cyclists injured/killed per capita?
If so I'd say it's a no-brainer. If not, it becomes a meaningless stat and probably not something to be pushed.
Some campaigns do try, but they get largely ignored.
I've never seen either of them, but yeah that's the type of thing. What happened to public information broadcasts?!
I suppose it's funding. If it was a question of economics it would probably have been sorted by now.
GrahamS - I'm not inclined to be against assumed liability, but do road safety stats bear out that those countries that don't have it also have the most cyclists injured/killed per capita?
It's trickier than that to compare since every country has its own level of general road safety.
For example in the hallowed Netherlands the fatality rate for cyclists is very low (just 9 per billion km cycled), but then the overall fatality rate for all road users is pretty low to (4.9 per billion km).
So comparing that to somewhere like Bulgaria where the fatality rate for all users is 19.1 per billion km is tricky.
And of course there are other conflating factors (richer countries tend to have better healthcare and modern cars with better pedestrian safety, so people may still be as likely to be hit but are more likely to survive).
As for the UK, by most measures our roads are actually pretty safe. But the Killed-Or-Seriously-Injured rate for cyclists is notably high and the number of journeys made by bike is very low.
Perhaps the clearest measure is to see how much riskier it is to cycle in a country compared to driving. You can see in this graph that the UK actually does better than the Netherlands for driving risk, but in the UK cycling is 13 times more likely to kill you than driving, whereas there is far less disparity in the Netherlands (just 4.4 times).
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Sauce: http://drawingrings.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/no-cycling-is-not-safer-in-britain-than.html