[Closed] PSA : The sad reality of a liftime frame warranty

They are specific...

[i]Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from [b]manufacturing defects[/b] in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.[/i]

Is damn specific... if you find a manufacturing fault, even if it only becomes obvious years down the line, they'll sort it. Nowhere do they say that when the frame finally dies of use, that you'll get a new one free.

is a cracked/failed weld not a manufacturing defect?

they don't seem to have proved it's not in the op's case.

In which case Kelvin see my previous post on challenging litespeed to establish precisely how they know this fault is user caused and not as a result of manufacture or materials issues a decade ago...

I really think the OP has a case.

Nowhere do they say that when the frame finally dies of use, that you'll get a new one free.

It has failed at a join, which is completely different from wearing out and in my view is a manufacturing defect in that the frame wasn't built with sufficient strength to withstand a 'lifetime' of use in the manner intended.

If they are now saying that the life expectancy of a Ti frame is 5-10 years under normal use, that is what they should specify in the warranty.

What he's got is a effectively a statement to the effect of:

[I]We've looked at it and decided that this failure (which will cost us money to repair) isn't our fault, so you can pay... or you can eff off[/I]

No demonstration of, or real proof has been offered to support their verdict just an In-house assessment, that shock horror removes financial risk from the business...

[i] and to be honest, who buys a Ti frame and abuses it? Its hardly a kids DJ bike! [/i]

456Ti or any number of other long fork HT's?

Sounds like Litespeed have changed for the worst. I bought a Litespeed Hiwassee frame back in '97 and rode it lots till it cracked on a chainstay weld in 2007. I took it back to the shop I bought it from with the receipt, they sent it back to Litespeed and 2 weeks later I had a brand new Pisgah frame as a replacement. I was so impressed I have always had a hankering for another one - sad to say it sounds like I will never buy another one, as I certainly wouldnt regard 5 years as a reasonable length of time for a Ti frame to last. Bad Times 🙁

I have a road bike built in Glasgow in 1957. It is still in one piece after over 50 years. Even after I crashed it into the back of a car last xmas 😳

I would argue that a bike frame is not a moving component, and that subject to not being crashed and not being literally worn out (through), the frame should either have a lifetime of the original owner warranty, or it should have an expected lifetime warranty explicitly stated in years. A cracked frame is not wear and tear, it is the material reaching the end of it's life (it's fatigue failure point). Titanium has a fatigue limit, below which it won't experience fatigue failure no matter how many stress cycles are put on it. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that a well designed and built titanium frame would not crack if used within design constraints.

As a matter of interest, from Wikipedia:

Ferrous alloys and titanium alloys have a distinct limit, an amplitude below which there appears to be no number of cycles that will cause failure. Other structural metals such as aluminium and copper, do not have a distinct limit and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes. In these cases, a number of cycles (usually 10 to the power of 7) is chosen to represent the fatigue life of the material.

So, some fagpacket calcs for an aluminum frame:

10000000 cycles at 80rpm = 125000 minutes = 2083 hrs = 208 weeks = 4 years (at 10 hrs per week).

Really, the warranty for any frame that will have a fatigue failure point (any aluminium frame, any steel or titanium frame designed / built so it's fatigue limit is passed) should be for hours of use, the same as aircraft frames. Trouble is, I doubt people measure that, and it is hard to prove. 'I only used it once a week for an hour', so an estimated number of years should be applied.

It is amazing, thinking about this, that some aluminium frame makers give true lifetime of owner warranties.

As an aside, I has my 4 year old Cannondale frame replaced a year and a bit ago, under warranty, with little fuss.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the OP's case, I won't be buying a Litespeed frame under [b]any[/b] circumstances. This from the owner of many thousand pounds worth of bikes, including a Titanium one.

If a company uses the phrase 'Lifetime guarantee' and it's doesn't mean the lifetime of the [i]original[/i] owner, then it's just a con.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the OP's case, I won't be buying a Litespeed frame under any circumstances. This from the owner of many thousand pounds worth of bikes, including a Titanium one.

If a company uses the phrase 'Lifetime guarantee' and it's doesn't mean the lifetime of the original owner, then it's just a con.

don't buy an alloy Cannondale then, their warranty is exactly the same with the same lack of "lifetime" in the context stated.

I'm planning a complaint to the ASA as their rules now govern website content in regard to Cannondale "lifetime of the first owner" warranty which actually isn't. Primary evidence is the CSG email which states their version of what "lifetime of the first owner" means which doesn't match any buyers

Litespeed Limited Warranty
Litespeed Bicycle's frames are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in material and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.

Or in other words 'sold as seen'

i think in some cases going about things with the right attitude helps,sadly i've broke cracked a few frames.
my lovely yeti fro....out of warrenty ,but i hammered the living daylights out of it for years.
santa cruz bullit mk1 6 month old.....no go said it was abused...why else buy one?
gt zasker carbon ,no problem sorted straight away.
intense socom....again extra were great and sorted quick.
oh and a marin mount vision again sorted no prob's
always being honest about why it broke ,no b.s and as a last resort i'll get it welded.
worst company ever to deal with RACEFACE.
having had issues with a camera (jessops) bike companys are a dream to deal with.

Consider TREK's lifetime warranty; my forks began to debond at the carbon-aluminium junction at the fork crown, on a 9 year old bike.

I phoned TREK to ask what replacement fork would fit and was told that the lifetime warranty covers frame and fork so take it to your local dealer, the rep is in there today, and we will sort you out.

A week later, a new fork at no charge.

That's how you get and keep custom and respect.

nikk, if its failed at a weld its not simple fatigue. Every weld affects the composition of the metal in and around it. If it fails at a weld then the welding (or heat treatment) is at fault. With Ti its usually oxygen contamination.

I reckon Ti frames have a higher failure rate (ie. number of failures as a percentage of the number of frames around) than any other material, and it's due to weld contamination.

Litespeed are supposed to be premium brand. Defining "lifetime warranty" as the life of the component is comedy genius but not what I expect from a company that sells such high end product. As others have said a more honest but shorter warranty would be more acceptable. Very badly handled, hopefully this warning will cost them more than a new frame for the OP would have.

Contrast this with the likes of Turner and Ibis (and mainstream brands like the trek example above), who seem to bend over backwards to sort warranty issues (even if youre not the first owner). I used to own a Litespeed (Obed) but wont buy another.

thread's a really bad advert for litespeed imho..........

Consider TREK's lifetime warranty; my forks began to debond at the carbon-aluminium junction at the fork crown, on a 9 year old bike.

I phoned TREK to ask what replacement fork would fit and was told that the lifetime warranty covers frame and fork so take it to your local dealer, the rep is in there today, and we will sort you out.

A week later, a new fork at no charge.

That's how you get and keep custom and respect.

Many years ago working in a bike shop and a guy brought in one of the very first Specialized carbon road bikes. Carbon tubes bonded into metal lugs. One of these: (pic nicked off a Google image search)

[img] [/img]

The tubes had come unbonded and the guy wondered if we could repair it. Obviously not but we phoned Specialized who said send it back - we did and a week later a brand new top end road frame arrived as a replacement. Nothing asked about receipt or the fact that the bike must have been about 10years old at least. Just fantastic service.

IME of dealing with warranty, Specialized and Trek were always excellent. Cannondale were slower than a herd of turtles stampeding through treacle but usually came up with the goods eventually (if the customer hadn't died of old age by then). It was always the more niche brands who couldn't care less.

In my opinion if you operate at that level (i.e. Litespeeds level) in a marketplace you must have exceptional customer service. The cost of that service (including replacing broken frames at 10+ years old for the original owner)needs to accounted for in the original selling price. This shouldn't be that large a financial burden as:

A) plenty of bikes sell on within that time so leave the original owner and warranty.

B)some bikes end up less used with something more modern replacing them so suffer relatively fewer failures.

C) the cost to the manufacturer of this expected high-end market warranty honouring is not only accounted for in the original high profit margins for a premium product, but the warranty costs incurred work as the best kind of marketing - word of mouth, or nowadays on the internet.

D) they should engineer their products so that they do not fail under reasonable use, AND THEN HAVE THE FAITH IN THEIR PRODUCTS TO BACK THIS UP.

Needless to say I wont be buying a Litespeed then.

reminds me of vauxhalls "warranty that could last a lifetime...." (10 years)

I'm kind of hoping I won't be dead in 10 years.

It's misleading, end of.

I once cracked a Dawes touring frame (a manufacturing fault not due to me putting heroic levels of power through it I hasten to add) and it was replaced by them with no hassle at all. My LBS where I had purchased the bike even built my bike back up around the new frame completely free of charge.

Some companies such as Dawes do offer lifetime warranties on their frames but then they don't tend to make bikes that are going to be tested to the absolute limit all that often whereas an MTB manufacturer knows their frames will be ridden hard by the majority of customers.

At Litespeed sky high prices you need to offer superior quality and service.

Quality - A frame they expect to last only 5 years offers nothing in quality or use that cheaper steel and carbon frames cant offer better. Most people view titanium as long lived, not as a cheap throwaway - clearly they are mistaken according to Litespeed.

Service - well thats wiped out for Litespeed as they clearly intend to mislead customers with a statement of lifetime cover that can at best be described as wilfully misleading peoples understanding and trust.

I have in the past come close to buying a ti frame but now having discovered its only going to last 5 years I see no advantage. I may as well get steel and replace to a more modern frame after a few years and I will still be better off and more up to date.

Ti just seems a waste of time now - 5 years lifespan? - just snob value, not a good product at all.

Midnighthour - Member
Ti just seems a waste of time now - 5 years lifespan? - just snob value, not a good product at all.

Thats the thing though, loads of these new Ti frames seem to be cracking. maybe the quality of titanium has gone downhill or manufacturers pushing the wall thickness thinner and thinner to get the weight down or something...?

seems very strange.

float - Member
Thats the thing though, loads of these new Ti frames seem to be cracking. maybe the quality of titanium has gone downhill or manufacturers pushing the wall thickness thinner and thinner to get the weight down or something...?

There are folk running some pretty old Ti frames with no problems whatsoever.

Yes, like me - still using my Tinbred most days. I can't remember when I bought it, but it's one of the earliest ones, from before Brant worked out how to get the stickers to stay stuck on the frame 🙂

Why would you expect a Ti frame to last longer than a Steel one? Be lighter, yes; but not last longer. Nothing ever lasts for ever. Of course, many of us have frames that are 20 years old, but in that time have broken one or two as well. C'est la vie.

buy cotic, i broke my soul frame in a crash and cotic sold me a new one with a £125 discount.
now thats nice service.

all frames will eventually break no matter what theyre made of.

I've followed this thread with interest.

I got into biking in the early 90's and remember spending hours pouring over bike mags. I seriously lusted after Merlin frames, they seemed so 'perfect' and, as a young teenager, seriously out of reach.

20 years later I now find myself in a position to afford something that I thought I would never have. Owning a top end, quality titanium frame is within my reach. I always thought though that when you buy something like this that is seriously top end, you were buying into a package. Excellent frame, excellent company, excellent service. Almost like you pay a premium to buy into the whole package. That is how you justify the price.

Apperently not.

Not sure if I want one anymore.

Litespeed Ratner moment me thinks - bet all their customers are going to love the ribbing they will get from their less affluent mates out on the trail 😆

I snapped my Unicoi which was bought new. Same thing, apparently a 71kg XC whippet is not the right person to be on it and I created excess wear and tear by using it. I gave up and had a Serotta custom made after i grilled them on warranty. I would never ever buy Litespeed ever again.

Great to see that if you Google "litespeed warranty", the first page is full of forum threads like this one and this one too.

What are Litespeeds credential anyway?

Is it a case of assumed quality due to the cost? that said was it them that made many road bikes for other brands back in the day.

I have a cheap Ti road frame that gets a hammering, eight years old now and still sweet as.

I had said to the missus about 2 months ago that when life's back on an even keel, I'll buy a Litespeed.

Now there's no question, there are obviously many Litespeed failures and huge Litespeed issues and the Litespeed warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on.

There won't ever be space made in my garage for one.

brant?@shedfire

Another forum thread propagating myths about steel and titanium "fatigue limits". Little knowledge = dangerous

scaredy@home
= quite irritating when people imply expertise but don't share it

Well said scaredy, he's got multiple previous too.

JFGI

"Typical values of the limit (Se) for steels are 1/2 the ultimate tensile strength, to a maximum of 100 ksi (690 MPa). For iron, aluminium, and copper alloys, Se is typically 0.4 times the ultimate tensile strength. Maximum typical values for irons are 24 ksi (165 MPa), aluminums 19 ksi (131 MPa), and coppers 14 ksi (96.5 MPa).[2] Note that these values are for smooth "un-notched" test specimens. The endurance limit for notched specimens (and thus for many practical design situations) is significantly lower."

So, so long as your cyclic fatigue load never exceeds the fatigue limit, all is golden.
But if you want to do the sums and look at the material thicknesses that would have to be used to lower the material stress to this level, you'll see where the problem lies.

Certainly on lightweight performance bicycles, I cannot think of many structural parts that will offer infinite fatigue life.

you'll see where the problem lies.

usually on the non drive side drop-out/stays 🙄

Thanks Brant,

though as a non-engineer that stuff is meaningless and I'm not able to do the calcs (there's no Ti figure there either but it's not like I can make use of it)

are you saying that NO currently used "proper" lightweight frameset (in any material) is within its limits during riding ?
How far off ?
(and what % "cycles" will exceed the threshold - presumably these need to add up to result in failure, or is one enough to screw it thereafter ?)

I won't ask how you feel about their warranty wording - unless you fancy it 😉

[url= http://www.bobbrowncycles.com/eng.htm ]Some useful frame strength / stiffness / fatigue info[/url]

crazylegs on the flipside specialized refused to honour a warranty claim with me. I argued that some customers will get their shoes cold wet and muddy.
So thats three sets failed in the sameplace. None replaced.Got an issue with spesh shoes? Make sure you dont have any signs of use on them.

"Deal with the shop" and silence was their replies. Specialized and Evanscycles customer service skills are incompetent.

I spoke to two Specializeduk contacts and explained this wasnt the first product failure. Their response? Ignored. Never bad this with any other brand, regardless of product.

Specialized you suck.

I wonder if they (Litespeed) have read this & thought $1000 (est mfr cost), would have been a small price compared to the bad press a 7 page Internet thread generates.

I nearly bought a Ti frame recently. Went with a steel Niner frame instead. I figured that at least its repairable at a reasonable cost if it does fail out of warranty. 😕

Sad state of affairs at Litespeed.

Why would you expect a Ti frame to last longer than a Steel one?

Because that's what the Ti hype machine has been telling us for the last 20+ years? I've got a Schwinn steel frame from 1952, and if my Ti road frame lasts that long I'll re-name myself Mavis Phannyphart.

To be fair - Litespeed very much pushed the longevity issue in their own literature - for example, the 2004 catalogue had this to say:

Fatigue strength is the measurement of how far and how many times a material can bend before it breaks. High fatigue strength is essential to the durability and safety of the frame. Certain materials such as steel and titanium actually have a threshold that if properly designed and used, can be bent an infinite number of times without failure.

Which would strongly suggest that if it broke due to fatigue in normal use during the 'lifetime of the original owner' then there was a design or manufacturing issue.

Seems obvious to me that Litespeed have very much traded on this 'lifetime warranty' as a big selling point for many years, in both their catalogues and advertising,

Certain materials such as steel and titanium actually have a threshold that [u][b]if[/b][/u] properly designed and used, can be bent an infinite number of times without failure.

The "if" is the key there. I don't think it's possible in many bicycle areas, and certainly not Ti down tubes. Not INFINITE life.

Best case welds double the stress in the joint, I'd have said. So that means working fatigue cycles need to be well below 25% of UTS for fatigue life, more like 15%.

That arguable gives a factor of safety of 4 to 6, for ultimate strength, which is quite high for a performance structure.

I have to go catch a plane, but there is some very good stuff on the old internet - Usenet - posted by richkatz@cruzio.com - go have a dig and see who that is 🙂

My beef was that it was a lifetime warranty,that was until it snapped and then it wasn't actually a lifetime warranty. That annoyed me a bt. Lifetime of first owner s jut at, not lifetime of the material.