[Closed] Project 5 watts per kg.

Impressive stuff. Watching with interest.

[img] [/img]

while the weight is a measurable stat, the strava stuff is just anecdotal, wind speed, gps error, etc too many variables

buy a power meter

Pretty sure I just said I've only got anecdotal evidence as next ftp is in another 2 weeks.

Doesn't change the fact I've taken 20 seconds out of that climb that's been static at 1:22 the last 2 full blown attempts I had at it. Would need to be blowing a tailwind gale for that to be wind and it wasn't a windy evening.

No pleasing some people.

I'm pleased 😀

I can see how it happens - these short anaerobic climbs aren't necessarily steady efforts. If you are bit overweight and power is down then sometimes you run out steam before the top. Train a bit and you get to the top without slowing. Times come tumbling down.

Agreed. Its nothing major, just holding 1 minute better and at a lighter weight it's had a noticeable impact..

Looking forward to next ftp test though

Well done on the weight loss- great stuff.

I've been obsessed with the Trainerroad podcasts lately and found several of them really useful before my FTP test last week particularly around pacing.

The biggest takeaway being that the 3rd quarter of any physical challenge is the toughest as it's mentally the furthest away from either end. Sure enough, my previous test showed exactly that.
Physiologically, that I could hold higher watts in the last quarter shows there was no logical reason for that section to be lower- it was all mental.

And by knowing that and focussing on it, I was able to push through this time and post four very even quarters.

Also- if you sprint for the last minute then you paced too conservatively. You shouldn't be able to. It's also mostly anaerobic so not even representative of your FTP.

Again, the previous test I stood up for the final minute, this time- I tried and couldn't.

I'm going to do monthly tests for the rest of the year partly to gauge what's working but also to help improve my testing and hopefully plateau those easy gains I'm no doubt getting by testing better.

And by knowing that and focussing on it, I was able to push through this time and post four very even quarters.

Again, the previous test I stood up for the final minute, this time- I tried and couldn't.

Nice one, CH.

No pleasing some people.

its not that, its just if your undertaking a challenge like this, get the right kit - you wouldn't be happy if your weighing scales were best guess would you?

don't use virtual power
don't use strava "data"

Inclined to agree. Particularly a 90 second segment as a proxy for FTP improvements.

Well done on the weight loss, seems rather rapid.

...How much importance should a XC MTBer put on the 20min FTP test/numbers?

...should the sub 1min / 3min / 5min efforts/numbers be where we should be focusing or using for measuring?

...and like Alex said consistency with these shorter but repeated intervals?

(Hi Alex, didn't realise you are on here) 😉

It’s an aerobic sport, damn it!”

Push up your FTP and you'll likely see improvement in all the others too... (maybe not 5sec)

while the weight is a measurable stat, the strava stuff is just anecdotal, wind speed, gps error, etc too many variables

I disagree. Over time you can get a clear trend, this is what it's all about after all.

Ok so it's not a proxy for FTP, but it's an important stat. It maybe due to better technique or better pacing/application etc but ultimately if you want to race, that all counts.

Crosshair Physiologically, that I could hold higher watts in the last quarter shows there was no logical reason for that section to be lower- it was all mental.

Very interesting - just made me realise I've probably done my previous FTP tests wrongly as I always end up sprinting at the end.

Any other tips on ideal pacing for the 20 mins? Gradual build-up?

Congrats so far!!

Hmm you've just made me review my last FTP test!!

Average for 20 mins was 250*, the last minute of which I was stood up at 301* 😳

[IMG] [/IMG]

Although the virtual terrain messed with my head a little bit too (erg mode on), as you can see from the dips in elevation (top) with a corresponding dip in power. Retard ha!

*made up numbers.

For the people moaning about the strava data please read back half a page. I didn't post an update I was asked how I'm getting on one month in.

My response was that I've got no proper data yet as my next ftp test is on a fortnight but I've got anecdotal evidence of improvement on the bike.

I'm not basing anything on that stuff but it's all I have at the minute when someone asked.

Oh and thanks sincerely for the congratulations on the weight loss from the people encouraging.

I want to be 76kg by the end of the summer and have a pretty strict 6 weeks planned out whilst I'm off work to drop about 0.5-1kg per week.

Going to start tracking calories as of next week too, which I've not done yet.

Congratulations on the weight loss.

I think people over-think the numbers. Just because more numbers are available (HR, power, balance, blah blah), doesn't mean the older simpler ones aren't valid!

You are riding up a segment consistently and one assumes that you are "trying hard". Your times are coming down. So the potential energy is roughly the same (you haven't lost THAT much weight), but the rate you are generating it is going up. Nice one 😆 . That's Watts/kg and you can rightly be pleased.

RPE = perceived effort is also valid, and you've already said you are trying, so RPE is probably about the same. The Borg scale for RPE is 1-20 and is roughly heart rate/10. You are probably about 13-17. You could also measure speed or time for average heart rate, as I do for a closed traffic free lap. It's all data.

Keep it up.

Very interesting - just made me realise I've probably done my previous FTP tests wrongly as I always end up sprinting at the end.

Any other tips on ideal pacing for the 20 mins? Gradual build-up?

I've only done one I'm pleased with so no expert 😆

I found having an accurate guess really helpful and then just did as mentioned in other threads- ride at target watts for five minutes and see where my heart rate is at.
As it was, I was above target but it felt sustainable so I just carried on holding for the next five minutes.
The third quarter was indeed the toughest but I was ready for it and just did everything I could to hold the watts. I was literally making crazy noises and spraying drool everywhere at this point.
When I hit 'lap' at the 15minute mark, I could also see my overall average and knew it was a good number so from there it was easy as I didn't want to throw it away.
At 90 seconds to go, I was in danger of stopping so stood up early and the watts didn't go more than 40 higher so I sat back down again. I tried once more at 60 to go and definitely had no sprint so closed my eyes and ground it out- another good reason to test indoors 😆

There's one sprint climb where I've always pushed myself. Taken my time on on it from 1min25 to 1min05 so I'm definitely making improvements.

Regarding big improvements on Strava, that's often down do the actual effort you put in on a particular attempt. Many people don't like the pain associated with a 110% effort so seldom do it. Then along comes a day and you think %%%%it lets go for it. I've got stava pb's many % points ahead of my next best time just because it's a flat out ride till you puke effort, againt a normal "hard" effort.

That's a climb our club races up though. I always hit max hr on it so I know I've flogged myself silly.

Interestingly if you look the previous two efforts had been exactly the same before I've had this month of clean eating and training.

One other thing regarding some of this anecdotal evidence I've noticed, the difference relative to the others I ride with speaks more volumes so far than anything.

Ftp test it 10 days. Will post up when I've done it, I'm really intrigued to see what the numbers are going to say.

...the 3rd quarter of any physical challenge is the toughest...

Personally, I find passing the half way point is a mental boost, and if I'm making my best effort, it's the final quarter where I'll be hanging on and really having to concentrate.

Any other tips on ideal pacing for the 20 mins? Gradual build-up?

Regarding pacing for FTP tests, the sad and painful fact is that you need to do a lot of them.

Ideally you should be keeping an even pace, but therein lies the catch-22 situation. How do you know how hard to go at the start if you don't know how you'll feel at the end? Especially when you first start doing them and are probably seeing gains in both fitness and your ability to read your body. The answer is that you have to keep doing threshold efforts to see how you respond.

Importantly, if your last test was 250W and you set off at 270W next time and blow up - that's OK! It's all good data.

If you do a lot of fast tempo rides or races, you may find that the CP model in training peaks or golden cheetah can give you some indication of whether your ftp may have changed. That can give you a pointer as to how hard to set off.

Ultimately, you have to learn how to read your body.

EDIT: When I say you have to do a lot of them. I mean, initially, rather than forever.

I've got stava pb's many % points ahead of my next best time just because it's a flat out ride till you puke effort, againt a normal "hard" effort.

That's me trying to get that KOM from you.

I just can't put that much effort in on a stationary bike or on a flat road sprint. But on an off-road climb I'll bury myself. Psychological of course.

Regarding FTP tests - there was (maybe still is) a massive TrainerRoad turbo training thread. The TR programmes do FTP tests every 4 - 6 weeks so that the next training block is based on your current value which hopefully has improved due to the training.

It's also worth keeping a note of what you did in the 48hrs before you do the test so that each test is as close in initial conditions as possible. Testing the day after a long club ride is going to give different results to a test done after two days of rest.

Been intrigued reading this progress.

So much so I had a crack at a FTP 20min test this week.

Bloody knackered but managed to squeak out 3.04W/kg at an average of 268....

That's at 88kg so I reckon I've got some work to do to get near 3.5 or even 4.

Keep working hard guys!

Crumbs, that 4 weeks has gone fast. I have my next one pencilled in tomorrow. Going to start at +7w and see how it feels.

Not at all sure about giving yourself 'target' values for an ftp test, its like artificial motivation that maybe helps you draw out a bit more than you would under normal circumstances, so doesn't end up reflecting a real world ftp at all.

Only timer on display imo, not even speed or cadence when indoor as they can be mentally worked backwards if you ride the trainer a lot.

And OP must have tested too I guess?

I used to think that Fifeandy- although I can't find the original article that inspired that thinking. But since then I've changed my mind.
For setting training zones, it needs to be a physiological maximum. With the 20minute test, I'd argue that you can't ride harder than your FTP (well 105% obv) because if you can- that's your new FTP (assuming it's a steady state effort).

I also think the benefits you get in terms of pacing, more than outweigh any downsides (of having a target in mind).

I now have a very good platform for consistent testing with a very repeatable protocol so I'm pretty happy with the number.
And for Zwift racing categories, (the other reason I want to keep it improving)- my system is likely to give results consistent with those others have generated from the Zwift test which also has your watts on display live.

Well done to everyone making gains!

Bloody knackered but managed to squeak out 3.04W/kg at an average of 268....

Ignoring the rounding error (3.05 vs 3.04 🙂 ) 3.05w/kg is the 20min power, FTP would be approximated as 95% of this value, ie 2.89w/kg

With the 20minute test, I'd argue that you can't ride harder than your FTP (well 105% obv) because if you can- that's your new FTP (assuming it's a steady state effort).

[mathpedant]Not 105%, a fraction more [/mathpedant]*

*hopes there are no silly mistakes after such a b*ll end post 🙂

Haha, nice work Dan.

CJR is a good student but gets distracted easily and must try harder.
C-

If you can't do, teach 😯 😆

If it were possible to have some sort of negative FTP, then that would be me right now 😐

Humble pie for lunch 😆

Bailed on my test today (definitely not recommended!) as I got half way and blew up.

Could probably come up with a dozen excuses why it went wrong but ultimately my FTP isn't what I had hoped today that's for sure 🙂

Still, it was a good training session. Four high cadence intervals during the warm up, the ten minute (Vo2 Max 😉 ) ftp attempt and a frustrated 500w 1min effort to finish out the hour means I got something out of it.

Have been following this thread as I'm working to a goal of 4W/kg. Just wondered if the OP had tested recently? Curious to know what type of gains he's seeing Vs the training. I'm not really doing specific work, just doing more riding and seeking out big hills (along with a much better diet)

Testing in the middle of next week, although I've got 2 big rides planned this coming weekend and an even bigger one planned the following weekend followed by a 180 miler the following weekend and a 100 mile mtb ride planned the one after (mid week I'm doing at least one chaingang ride too)..trying not to overdo it on the turbo and enjoy the summer.

Oh and apologies those of you waiting to see if I've gained in power. This first phase has been more about losing weight than upping the power, when I hit 72kg my focus is going to shift (hopefully this will coincide with the winter when I will be on the turbo more than outside).

I'm a steady 80kg at the minute and plan on mixing the diet up with some running as well to help keep it coming down from Monday.

On a rest week this week.

Will be testing middle of next week for definite though.

Ok drumroll.....

Just rolled in from an ftp test as we came home from hols early yesterday due to pants weather....

....

Based on trainer road 90% of two 8 min efforts averages with anaerobic burn outs before hand my current ftp is....

288watts.

Current weight is 80kg.

Previously I was at 273 with a weight of about 85kg. Not bad for 6 weeks progress imho.

Good work OP. Watching this with interest

Good work! a 5kg loss, and a 15watt gain is excellent!

I'd advise getting the EPO out, if you're still aiming for 5w/kg...

I agree with your earlier comment though - aim high, and you'll still do better than if you aim low. good luck!

Thanks, plenty more flab to come off yet before hitting the training hard.

Yah admittedly 5 is probably never going to happen, 4.5 may have been a more realistic long term target.

Focusing on getting down to 70-72kg at the minute, that will see me at 4 before the real graft has to happen!

Off to buy some smaller jeans this afternoon

Great work- well done you!

Well done on your progress. i am still following this thread with interest, and seeing what i can achieve myself. If i was your coach though i would be suggesting you focus on speed, and power. endurance next, then weight loss. some weight loss should come along the way as a function of the plan. keep up the good work. i have gone from thinking it impossible , to thinking maybe!

Just had a weigh in, 81.6, lowest for a long while. Strava FTP says 308 but haven't done a test for months...!
Still, progress, hopefully.

Be careful what you wish for

May 2017 - 345W and 76kg - 4.54w/kg
August 2017 - 325W and 69kg - 4.71w/kg

I'm slower - a lot slower.