[Closed] Pike set up- it just feels 'wrong' (xfirm spring)- help

If I've said this once, I've said it a billion times: RS recommended spring weights are mostly on the high side.

I'm about the same weight as you, I ride a firm in my Pikes and it's just about right. I can get away with the standard medium too, it rides fine but just bottoms out a bit too often. I've got a mate who must be around 13st who rides a soft spring in his Pikes for part of the year (He loves messing with suspension, he puts softer springs in in the winter)

Basically, you should have got a firm.

EDIT
Also, I believe that there is possibly some variance in RS springs - That one 'firm' spring might not be quite the same as another 'firm' spring. I can't prove it, but I'm not the only one that thinks this. 🙂

EDIT 2
Also, I've got 140mm Vanillas on my Inbred, and they are spot on with the standard spring in them and a touch of pre-load. Personally, I'd gladly trade U-turn for preload adjustment on coil forks, having had both.

what he said 🙄

Firm here and I weigh around 90kgs' it had a medium in when I was heavier and was ok just a bit too divey.

Its ridiculous, its either pogo-stick like or it just squats. No inbetween.

PP- I'll throw the medium back in- what settings are you running? (mine is the 454 coil- external flood adjust)

it depends how you ride too.

I'm lighter than you and have 2 Pikes both with X-Firm springs and still bottom them too easily at times. spring rate on the two springs feels identical, I run one at 95mm on a dirtjump hardtail and the other at 140mm on a mini DH bike. whereas I have a friend who is heavier than me and ran Firm on his XC bike and and never bottomed his out. (I could bottom out his easily just rolling along and pumping the bars hard)

do you know how the Mo-Co damping settings work? also,I find small bump performance not so good with the heavier springs unless I run them with quite fast rebound settings.

I'm over 16st and the x-firm was way too stiff for me.

do you know how the Mo-Co damping settings work?

Fek yes. I pretty much wrote the book on them....
😉

also,I find small bump performance not so good with the heavier springs unless I run them with quite fast rebound settings.

Should be the other way round, for a given weight of rider: Heavier spring rebounds with more force/faster and therefore needs more damping to control it..... 🙂

didnt PP say use the firm, not the medium?

I really think there is some variation in the springs. At 13 stone kitted out my pikes with the standard spring are a bit hard. Ok I ain't the gnarliest of riders but I ain't the wimpiest either. I cannot bottom out the spring no matter how hard I try ( but do get all but 10 mm of the travel). Even doing endos or landing small jumps on the front wheel with the brake on will not bottom it.

WTF? I wasn't actually talking to you. 😕

and yes, I know it "should" be the other way, but it isn't. get over yourself! 😛

What spring comes as standard then? Mine feel fine for me with what I presume is a medium spring and no compression damping, and I weight about 12 stone. They could maybe be a bit softer but I quite like a firm set up.

WTF? I wasn't actually talking to you.

But I was talking to you. 🙂

Calm down, dear!

TJ - But you're light, weak, lack technique and seem to think you're riding a motorcycle most of the time. 😆

also,I find small bump performance not so good with the heavier springs unless I run them with quite fast rebound settings.

Rebound settings should have no effect on small bump compliance as that is controlled buy the friction in the fork and the compression damping. Are you getting pack down from too much rebound damping?

A tad harsh there GW - remember you taught me my technique 🙂

IIRC the OP is hardly the gnarliest either

Rebound settings should have no effect on small bump compliance as that is controlled buy the friction in the fork and the compression damping

He's right you know. Adjustable compression would make a difference to bump compliance.......

What spring comes as standard then? Mine feel fine for me with what I presume is a medium spring and no compression damping, and I weight about 12 stone. They could maybe be a bit softer but I quite like a firm set up.

Medium.

If I remember rightly according to the RS guide you should have an x-firm!

TJ - 😉

and, Yes. but with nowhere near too much damping.

too much rebound can lead to "pack down" which then will take you onto the harder part of the progressive spring and cause poor small bump compliance

Im 15st and never get full travel with Firm apart from on biggest local DH drops.

IIRC the OP is hardly the gnarliest either

ROFLMAO

But anyway, probably 14.5st and riding the stock spring, feels fine. Ride the firmest (purple?) of the three stock springs in Vanillas though.

Got 454 Airs and think they're the work of the devil / a PITA to set up / not very plush. But then, unlike the OP, I can't really be arsed fannying with forks as I suspectI lack the skills and insight.

Tell you what Hora, I'll swap you my Air 454s for your coils (so long as you've still got he medium spring) ;-P

X-firm?! Ha ha, that's a good guide then! I have not bottomed mine out yet but riding on mud and ice its a bit tricky to get any speed up! I land all my jumps perfectly onto the transition with such smoothness that my suspension hadrly moves anyway ... 😉

Yes. but with nowhere near too much damping.

Is it me or does that make no sense? 😉

Anyway, Hora, I would have said the firm spring for you after seeing you and your riding at the weekend. I have Pikes on my pitch and I still have the medium spring in (15.5st, with "enthusiastic" riding 😉 )Seems ok but would like to try the firm spring. £45 a lot of cash to try something though. :-/

I'm 80kg and medium was too soft for me, so I converted mine to dual air, loads better.

But as this thread reveals, the right spring weight aint just your weight, it's how you ride, how the balance of weight (front/back) is on your bike etc. Your weight just gives you a guide.

The rebound seems almost unaffected- able to function. On every descent even if I had the rebound on slow or faster my head feels like its going to be shaken off and the bars are trying to shake me off.

Its almost as there is a very very fine line between the forks packing down with too slow a rebound or pogo-ing me off. ****in sweet spot doesnt seem to be there.

Ive obviously had the compression almost fully open as Im nowhere near bottoming them out.

absolutely everyone (nearly) is saying you need the firm and not the x firm, have you tried the firm yet?

Have the floodgate / poploc thingy completely off when setting up the fork. One less variable to worry about. How much sag are you getting?

Set the fork up by firstly checking sag - this shows how much preload ( not adjustable on these forks easily) and what the initial spring rate is like.

Then with all damping at minimum see if you can bottom the fork - checks the final spring rate is right for you. then set the rebound then fiddle with the poploc / floodgate thingy

Yeah, I realise what you're trying to say TJ, but no it's not so bad that the spring doesn't recover and packs down further and further.. but in use testing settings on the same section of DH track over a day I def found the fork just couldn't smooth out the ripples, roots and smaller hits as well unless rebound was set fairly open. the rebound damper on Pikes is a very simple valve is it possible it affects the compression stroke too? I don't know and to be honest, I don't really care as long as I've got settings that works best for me.

PP - being a self proclaimed expert on them, did you test lots of different settings extensively to come to your conlusion? (I do agree with the theory behind all the suspension damping settings/characteristics your spouting, just didn't find what I'd have expected)

tinsy- the diff between firm and xfirm can not be massive can it? Im getting nowhere near full travel on xfirm- its like a stiff stick (the forks).

I've had floodgate completely off- completely on and inbetween. One thing to note- my Lyriks have two clicks between the floodgate settings whereas the Pikes have a fair few- thats normal isnt it?

, how the balance of weight (front/back) is on your bike etc.

I wondered about this too - my Pitch is mega slack and has plenty of rear suspension so maybe it's weighting the forks less than some bikes would.

the rebound damper on Pikes is a very simple valve is it possible it affects the compression stroke too, I don't know and to be honest, I don't really care as long as I've got settings that works best for me.

Quite possible I guess and a pragmatic atitude is always best. If it aint broke don't fix it.

grum - a Pitch is not mega slack, even with Totems.
they are mega long though. so your theory still works

Well not compared to a DH bike I suppose...

I do think that sometimes a better fork or full suss bike can cause confusion. I have changed from an Inbred with revelations to a Pitch Pro. I do still seem to be shaken around like a rock in a tin can but I do seem to go faster than I used to downhill. It's almost as if you ride the fastest you can bear no matter what the bike is, but the better suspension allows you to be at a faster speed when you get to that point.
Last weekend I was riding down Hagg Farm on the Peaks Pootle and was surprised at how much faster I was down it (passed a few folk which was odd!!) but I still felt the same at the bottom as I did on my hardtail. I could pick lines better and stay on them though.
Probably makes no sense but that's my take on it.

Am I missing out on all this suspension tweaking, lucky that my forks "work" or just too naive to realise they could be better?? 😕

Suspension set up still remains a mystery to me anyway. I'm too busy being grateful I'm still on my bike than taking time to consider damping rates. Maybe that's just the dark Peak, it's laughs at anyones attempts to ride across it!!!

Am I missing out on all this suspension tweaking, lucky that my forks "work" or just too naive to realise they could be better?

+1
🙂

You need the Firm spring. Until you get that, no amount of fiddling with settings/oils will help.

, how the balance of weight (front/back) is on your bike etc.

I wondered about this too - my Pitch is mega slack and has plenty of rear suspension so maybe it's weighting the forks less than some bikes would.

Being tall on a 16" 456 you'd think my weight would be over the front but I'm I tend to be centred or over the rear on steep stuff.

I'm sure I have a standard spring in my Lyriks and I've set them up using the compression etc properly.

Hmmmmmmm

I'll try the standard spring first and go through the normal set up- will run compression at almost clockwise etc etc. I just dont see the point of throwing more money at a problem. £45 is daft.

Does the pop lock actually do anything?? 🙂

I have the same fork but either use it locked out or fully open. I thought the poplock was like a blowout value or is it for everyday use so the fork is rigid until you need it? Sorry for being stupid.

stilltortoise - Member

Am I missing out on all this suspension tweaking, lucky that my forks "work" or just too naive to realise they could be better??

Suspension tweaking can end up rather nerdy and silly - and IME most folk have little idea of how to set them up. ( high speed damping is for when you are riding fast and other misconceptions) I have seen this many times in both bicycle and motorcycle worlds. Ultimatly if it feels OK then it is OK. People ( like me) sometimes get too hung up on minutiae but equally I have seen some awful set ups. I have one pal with a 150 mm fork that is so hard he only gets 80 mm travel and he has no damping at all on it so it bounces like a pogo stick. However he is happy and does not want to change it so its fine for him. Bugs the hell out of me watching him not getting the best out of it but thats my problem not his.

FWIW - I got this reply from Tim Flooks when I asked about setting up my coil Pikes a while ago

Motion Control compression.... The big blue knob just opens or closes a kidney shaped port allowing oil to flow easily into the upper chamber or give it some/lots of resistance. The gate valve controls how much pressure is in the lower chamber before it releases the oil, bypassing the kidney compression port, again allowing the oil to flow into the upper chamber. So by balancing the 2 you can have what you want. If you want a fork that locks you need to run the gate on maximum so that when the blue compression is fully closed the oil has to reach a high pressure before being allowed in to the upper chamber, giving a stiff fork. If you want good low speed compression with no spiking for great descending you would be better running the compression fully closed or very near fully closed & the gate near minimum. This will reduce brake dive but also allow the fork to easily overcome any square edge bumps or wet roots. This is how I run my forks.

With the remote lockout you can preset how much you pull/turn the blue
compression knob when you push the handlebar lever you get repeatable level of damping. With the manual knob this is difficult to close it consistently to say 60 degrees of its travel.

16st here on an X-Firm Spring. Fork feels great, not quite getting full travel but not exactly hard rider, just heavy. Didn't feel a vast amount of difference between the Medium & X-Firm springs, just less initial movement & sag. Certainly doesn't feel wooden / dead. (To me anyway). Fork is way OTT for my local Cannock Chase, but really good on more technical stuff in Wales, Peaks etc.

Not sure if its significant, but when you installed the spring did you unwind the bit at the bottom of the spring all the way ?
(Not sure what this does, but Tim Flooks mentioned it when I spoke to him).

Hora, just ride the thing for a while before you dismiss it!

Obviously the fork will feel stiff when coming from being undersprung. Stick with it. I'm only just moving to a firm (from x-firm) having dropped a stone to 13.5. It still feels a tad too soft for me, I bottom it out in regular riding.

( high speed damping is for when you are riding fast and other misconceptions)

You called me out on this once before and it irked me, but I couldn't be arsed to discuss.

You're saying that the suspension will not see higher shaft speeds when the bike is going quicker over rough terrain?

Even if that is the case- the difference that the high speed compression adjustment makes IMVHPO can only be _felt_ at high bike speeds.

If you want good low speed compression with no spiking for great descending you would be better running the compression fully closed or very near fully closed & the gate near minimum. This will reduce brake dive but also allow the fork to easily overcome any square edge bumps or wet roots. This is how I run my forks.

Yes, this is spot on. The RS manual is wrong in this respect.

tinsy- the diff between firm and xfirm can not be massive can it? Im getting nowhere near full travel on xfirm- its like a stiff stick (the forks).

Until you got the spring rate at least close your wasting your time fiddling with the other settings, if you spring rate is wrong you cant make up for that with twiddling knobs.

I sometimes think too much emphasis is placed on preventing fork dive. In my not-very-techy head a "plush" fork will dive under hard braking unless there is some serious (low speed compression?) damping. But surely the more you try and add clever damping the more it impacts on how plush a fork is and how easily it gives up its travel, particularly at the start of the stroke.

My fork is super plush, I get plenty of travel out of it, it is great to ride but it dives like a guillemot when braking hard. The latter issue isn't really an issue because I only brake hard at the bottom of the hill 😉

Oh, Sorry Hora, this is no use to you at all 😆

stilltortoise compression damping doesnt alter the spring rate it only affects how fast the fork can react to a bump, if your close with the spring rate you can fine tune the ride with the damping but you cant make up for a soft fork with it. So yes your right really, overdo the comp damping and you can get a softly sprung unforgiving ride.

Retro - High speed damping refers to the speed at which the suspension is moving - not the bike. You can get high speed movement of the suspension at low bike speeds and low speed movement of the suspension at high speeds.

Of course the more speed the bike has the more high speed movement the suspension will get but also the more low speed movement of the suspension.

High speed movement of the suspension occurs with such things as hitting a square edged bump. Low speed is such things as brake dive.

PP - being a self proclaimed expert on them, did you test lots of different settings extensively to come to your conlusion?

Which conclusion are you talking about? 🙂

If you mean the varience between springs, well that's just a gut feeling I've had for a while based on my own experience with one fork, and others I've read on here, like TJ. There might be nothing in it, and I have no way of proving it as I've already said. 🙂

If you mean RS recommended spring weights being a bit on the heavy side, well, that's my own findings from setting up my own (Coil and air) forks and helping others to do the same, advice I was given by TFTuned, and a lot of evidence on it on here!

If you mean damping settings, that's basic suspension set-up facts that you can read in a lot of places. I will say that there's a LOT of misinformation and BS talked about suspension in the MTB world, in mags especially. But if you take the time to learn what the adjustments do, and how to get the effect you want, then it's all pretty basic stuff really.

I enjoy faffing, I enjoy learning new stuff, I understand suspension and how it works. That's just me. 😀

i've had a 'normal' (standard) u turn spring for pikes sat in my house for months if not longer.

available if anyone wants to swap back to regular?

tracknicko I have two red's sat doing nowt. Im guessing at somepoint in the past I sold some Pikes with the wrong spring fitted for the poor ****er!

I'll try the standard spring first and go through the normal set up- will run compression at almost clockwise etc etc. I just dont see the point of throwing more money at a problem. £45 is daft.

Hora, you're getting all wound up about this now aren't you?

IIRC you ditched some other forks (Air Pikes?) because you coundn't get them to work for you, yes? (Apologies if I'm wrong here)

You should be able to sell the X-firm fairly easily and get most of that money back, and it's a lot cheaper an easier than didtching the forks.

First up, you won't mask having the wrong spring in there by trying to compensate with damping settings. It won't work. You'll end up with a fork that feels utterly cack.
I wish I lived closer to you, I'd probably be able to convince you by letting you ride mine with a heavy spring fitted. 😀 And then help you sort the other setting out properly.... 😀

I'm bowing out of this because of course you're all talking spring rates and I have air forks 😆 😆

ah well hora! saw an oppurtunity to make 5 squids and help someone out. maybe ill cut it up and use it as a pen holder?

give it to the mrs as a valentines day present?

Hora, you're getting all wound up about this now aren't you?

I can see what you did there PP... nice.

I'm bowing out of this because of course you're all talking spring rates and I have air forks

Air forks still have a 'spring rate'! It's just that you change it with a pump, not by swapping coils. 🙂

I see what you're saying though.... 🙂

stilltortoise - Member

I'm bowing out of this because of course you're all talking spring rates and I have air forks

air forks have a spring rate as well

*runs away and hides*

I can see what you did there PP... nice.

What? I'm seriously just trying to help him out by suggesting that he's better sorting the forks he has, rther than getting in a tizzy, as he seems to be. Really I am. 🙂

air forks have a spring rate as well

*runs away and hides*

TJ, stop it you bad, bad man! I put that in quotes just because I knew 'someone' would argue! 😉 Just a turn of phrase to illustrate a point, nothing more! 🙂

EDIT
I'm not getting drawn into this argument either. I've still not a had a chance to read that stuff you sent me on 'understeer' yet. I do get the feeling we could be a right pair of sad old anoraks if we got together over a pint.... 😉

pp

Hora, you're getting all wound up about this now aren't you?

coil spring, wound up... you didnt mean that? I laughed anyhow... 🙂

Hora, your medium spring was too soft the xfirm was too hard, now try and work out what spring rate you need...... FIRM.

LOL!!

Ahh, I see now. Sorry. No pun intended! 😀

thanks for your detailed reply Peter, but "no" would have sufficed 😉

Over to classifieds I go

PeterPoddy - Member

I do get the feeling we could be a right pair of sad old anoraks if we got together over a pint.

😳 you might just be right. what actually makes this worse is I understand the theories on all this sort of stuff from much reading over the years and much tinkering but do not have the skills to make us of this knowledge when riding. Is that similar to ATGNI? "all the knowledge but non of the skill"?

thanks for your detailed reply Peter, but "no" would have sufficed

I make no apologies for giving a thorough answer! 😀

PP asking TJ out online shocker.... rekon your up for the stoker eh PP. 😉

Retro - High speed damping refers to the speed at which the suspension is moving - not the bike. You can get high speed movement of the suspension at low bike speeds and low speed movement of the suspension at high speeds.

Yes, I know! 🙂 I have never said differently.

Of course the more speed the bike has the more high speed movement the suspension will get but also the more low speed movement of the suspension.

I think we broadly agree then. You can feel the effect of HS damping settings vastly more at higher (bike) speeds.

Hora

Where you based? Are you visiting south wales soon?

Will happily meet you and set you forks up for you.

Loco- very kind of you. Not for a while- Lakes this weekend then Peaks week after. Thank you though. 🙂

this is why i prefer air-sprung forks. much easier to fine tune and less initial faffing.....

alpin - Member
this is why i prefer air-sprung forks. much easier to fine tune and less initial faffing.....

followed by years of poor performance. seems like a good trade off to me.

This is really interesting! (I think I may be an anorak too..)

In particular the interaction between compression and gate as described by TF, I had not appreciated how they worked together at all. At teh moment I think I'm doing to opposite to what Mr Flooks does, must try to other way and see what its like!

It might not be the spring. I've just described the symptoms to a expert and it could be lost oil into the lowers- an oil lockout and (fix = need a seal kit).

*Just for info incase anyone else comes across this and does a search on STW (will report back). The forks are still under warranty.

Right its a Motion control seal blown/oil dropped into the lowers causing a lockout. Apparently it can be common on RS forks. FYI.

Hora, OK, I've had that happen to mine and, yes, indeed it as quite common. But from your OP there's NO WAY ON THIS LITTLE EARTH I would have been able to tell that was the problem.
🙂

The main symptom is a gradual loss of travel until you've only got about half of it left, and it fells harsh as hell when it bottoms out.
Also, mine was under warranty too, but it's such an easy fix it's quicker and cheaper to DIY (If you know what to do, it's 2 O rings, and about 15 mins work) than send the fork back.....

Don't ask me to explain it though. Can't be bothered, TBH. 😀

I've seen/felt that problem happen to a mate's boxxer and my recons, and my reaction was - 'oops, that'll be ****ed then'. Not 'ooh that feels a bit oversprung'! You're always good value, Hora 🙂

It is a pretty easy fix, the SRAM instructions are very good, and it just involves swapping a few o-rings.

...like he says!

and my reaction was - 'oops, that'll be ****ed then'. Not 'ooh that feels a bit oversprung'!

You're quite right, that's what it feels like: Utterly buggered.