. I rarely see finished Ti roadbikes ready ro ride at ~7.8kg…
No, but technically the only difference can be the frame weight so I guess if that level of lightweight is important you'd just go carbon and be done with it. If Ti appeals then maybe so do other items that aren't there for being the lightest and next thing you know the bike's gained 1.5kg overall. tbh that just doesn't bother me (and where I live is hilly) but I get how important it is for others.
That's it. My Etape is between 9kg - 10kg but it's not marketed as a feather weight and SPD's (for convenience), mudguards etc etc all add up.
I've a chum whose really into his custom Ti and had a Laverack built. Very high end, THM Clavicula's, Enve's, Ceramic Speed this and that. It's lovely (apart from the black anodising - it looks like it's been in a fire...) but it's still 'heavy'. Must be £13k - £15k. So for me, fundamentally flawed. Mind the weight's no issue for him, he puts out 800w at the cake stop... 🙃
The amount of people on out club runs that bought a Specialised Tarmac 7 AXS blah de blah and are in a way disappointed* with them is huge in my experience. A lot of money for another plastic bike which is just a price point / extra piece of finishing kit from the next brands carbon mold. Its a race to get pro-peloton to the Sunday club run IMHO, and rarely is someone a good measure "better" than their club colleagues after they've bought one.
I bought that Enigma a few weeks ago BTW (they'll be a NBD post soon but there's a specific reason I can't post it yet), and it rides really nicely, smoothly and much faster than its 9.1kg (with pedals, 2 x cages, out front mount and rear light measure with my Amazon luggage tool) would indicate. I bought it because I don't have race ambitions, I want long, comfortable and enjoyable rides and/or 1-2hr pacy-cruise efforts.
Plus, I'm a grey logical thinker in love with Enigma - and being able to shake the hand of the man that welded it for you - so the aesthetic appeals to me much more that the spangdangly Willer, as much as I appreciate the technology of it.
YMMV, of course.
*Dissapointed is the wrong word - perhaps "not as amazed as they thought they were going to be based on the outlay" is a better description.
Aye, that's exactly why I bought my Enigma. I wanted to try Ti for long comfy days out on something mebbies 80% of a 'pukka' road bike. I then loaded it up like an HGV with 'comfort' (read 'heavy') stuff. It's still my preferred day club run bike.
I also have an alloominum CAADX as my winter/gravel default. It's about the same weight as the Enigma, was 30% of the cost and is 100% of the hoot. Built as a day road bike for winter, its perfect. Built for gravel, perfect. Its just one of those bikes that's 'right'.
I like to have a range so road bike for fast summers days, fancy road bike for high days and holidays, Ti bike for club runs, ally bike for winter or gravel and I've an 853 dedicated custom tourer for, well you can guess.
If I had to have one and only one, it's probly be the CAADX as it's the most flexible and does most of those things well enough.
*Dissapointed is the wrong word – perhaps “not as amazed as they thought they were going to be based on the outlay” is a better description.
Heard a story of a chap who spent mega money on an MTB a few years ago, then tried to return it after his mates smoked him on its maiden ride…
Having worked for a wilier dealer, they are not the easiest company to deal with, especially if they have proprietary parts (they all do) or there's a warranty issue
They do have some nice paint jobs, seen the bronze one in the flesh a few times and it looks stunning...
The amount of people on out club runs that bought a Specialised Tarmac 7 AXS blah de blah and are in a way disappointed* with them is huge in my experience. A lot of money for another plastic bike which is just a price point / extra piece of finishing kit from the next brands carbon mold
I've been contemplating a roadie for a while, something to blast around on a Summers evening, plenty of clubs locally too.
Keep looking at something like the Allez Sprint, half the price of the Tarmac and am I going to notice the difference, highly unlikely.
Heard a story of a chap who spent mega money on an MTB a few years ago, then tried to return it after his mates smoked him on its maiden ride…
Had that when I worked in a shop - a guy brought the bike back a week or so after purchase to complain that it wasn't fast enough. It was early 2000's, one of those "post-Tour" purchases. He'd watched Lance win the Tour, those Treks looked really nice etc.
I’ve a chum whose really into his custom Ti and had a Laverack built
Thing is, in the context of custom Ti, I don't think Laverack is especially high end? Pretty sure they get their frames from the same factory in China that several other 'custom' builders order from (this is based on some very amateurish detective work and similarities between several 'sort of' custom build Ti framesets. Note Laverack don't reference welding or actual 'frame' building on their website). I was looking at a similar frame from another builder and realised it really wasn't that much lighter than an 853 frame (I figured 300g at the time but the reality has ended up about 600g) for less money from someone who was actually building in the UK (it was during Covid so I didn't want to risk overseas shipping etc).
That's not a dig at quality though, I just think if you want super light Ti you need to look at the true specialists who weld in house etc.
am I going to notice the difference
But that's true of almost everything.
Should I buy a £10k Rolex or £5 Casio
Should I buy a £90k <higher end car of your choice> or a £20k Dacia
Should I buy a £400 pair of Loakes or a £2 pair of flip flops (mebbies a joke...)
Once you've got the basics covered, the rest is discretionary and you're into diminishing returns and nice to have.
I don’t think Laverack is especially high end
You might we be right. He's such a Ti pervert I've lost track of the latest. It may well be from one of those beardy rainbow anodising weirdos...
I’ve been contemplating a roadie for a while, something to blast around on a Summers evening, plenty of clubs locally too.
Keep looking at something like the Allez Sprint, half the price of the Tarmac and am I going to notice the difference, highly unlikely.
That was very high up the list when I was looking at a new road bike too. I kept wandering off into the realms of "what if I spend £5k, or stretch to £6k..." cos I'd had a redundancy payout but the fact is I no longer race, I don't "need" Di2 (although I've used it many times and it's lovely), my main requirement was just for a modern no-fuss bike that was as good as it could be. The price of the Allez was £2450 at the time (it's gone up now) but for £2000, I bought a Canyon with an identical spec and a carbon frame. OK, it's the base level (CF SL) frame but it's honestly all the bike I need! Also, even at £2450, that Allez was very expensive for what it is - at £2950, it's overpriced (IMHO). It'd be OK if it was Di2 105...
I'd ridden Canyon's extensively in the past so I know the geometry and the sizing and it was spot on straight out of the box.
It took a bit of time convincing myself that all the bikes featured in Cyclist Magazine and online adverts and so on were way way overkill for me. Very much a case of subtle marketing convincing me that I "needed" carbon this or aero that.
Keep looking at something like the Allez Sprint, half the price of the Tarmac and am I going to notice the difference, highly unlikely.
The top end one's are very expensive for an alloy machine. If you want a decent carbon semi aero bike with Venn 50's (plus axiom spares with winter tyres) in very good condition and ride a 56 for half the price I have one for Sale 🙂
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kryton1957/52624878913/in/dateposted-public/
Apologies for the crank misalignment 😀
But that’s true of almost everything.
Should I buy a £10k Rolex or £5 Casio
Should I buy a £90k <higher end car of your choice> or a £20k Dacia
Not really. A £90K car will feel a lot different to drive than a £20K car, a Rolex will tell the time less well than the Casio unless it is regularly serviced so for timekeeping there may be a small difference.
However, there may not be much difference when actually riding between the Allez Sprint and the Tarmac - would have to ride both and then decide.
However, there may not be much difference when actually riding between the Allez Sprint and the Tarmac
Yeah but you'll always know...
The amount of people on out club runs that bought a Specialised Tarmac 7 AXS blah de blah and are in a way disappointed* with them is huge in my experience.
I could well believe this, I think a lot of (diminishing) returns in buying high end e.g. slightly lighter, slightly more aero, slightly more compliant or stiff, could easily be eclipsed by the more prosaic day to day stuff e.g. you can still forget to charge the batteries, your high end hydraulic discs can still squeal in the wet, your expensive tubeless tyres can still spray sealant everywhere, you can still forget to lube your chain, those aero carbon wheels might be 0.2km/h faster but aren't actually as responsive or comfortable as some £500 aluminium handbuilts, etc. etc.
Even a beautiful paint job can become a liability or drawback if you're just skiting about some manky gritty wet road in south Lanarkshire or something... 😎
Over 10k for a bike and it doesn’t even come with a gold chain
I’m out..
It took a bit of time convincing myself that all the bikes featured in Cyclist Magazine and online adverts and so on were way way overkill for me. Very much a case of subtle marketing convincing me that I “needed” carbon this or aero that.
IKWYM, but the pricing alone is enough to convince me to keep it modest.
You can still just about get a nice enough carbon frame and Ultegra mechanical for about £2.5k, I'd hope? Then maybe upgrade the wheels - but anything after that seems like massive diminishing returns.
I just don't get where the money's going on £8k-£10k road bikes. It's a racket innit.
I just don’t get where the money’s going on £8k-£10k road bikes
Start by getting the prices for all the parts and see where the money has gone. The complete bike should be a lower price than buying all parts separately but that is not always the case.
The mechanic said “well if you want it to look right, Campag. If you want it to work, Shimano…”
From the same old book of clichés "Shimano wears out, Campag wears in" Other clichés are available. 🙂
@tomhoward Rusty chainwheels that's an @tazzymtb level of niche!
Start by getting the prices for all the parts and see where the money has gone. The complete bike should be a lower price than buying all parts separately but that is not always the case.
Yeah that's kind-of my point. If we could build a similar bike for cheaper using parts we get at RRP or the kind of slight discounts available to consumers, we know they are taking the absolute piss (I've seen the kind of prices that bike brands pay for OE kit and it's eye-opening).
This is a thing in MTBs as well - Orange and Santa Cruz spring to mind for selling complete bikes for more than the sum of parts at RRP.
Quite like the paintjob but can't abide colour matched stems.
but anything after that seems like massive diminishing returns.
Thats kinda my issues with expensive "Factory" bikes being pumped out of molds. When I collected my bike from Enigma, I stood watching a guy with very flat fingers sanding(?) some tubes, some welding and bead blasting and you can see where the money goes.
On the flip side I'm aware there's much more R&D going into marginal gains for pro peloton carbon frames than there is for a collection of titanium tubes.
That Willier just looks the same as 27 other extremely similar big brand aeroish drop-stayed frames currently on the market - albeit redeemed by a reasonable paint job. Then ruined by a gopping set of wheels. Debatably, no bike with the marketeers needless disc brake appendages can be considered aesthetically attractive when compared to the preferable alternative.
I'd take an art deco'd C40 any day of the week...
Start by getting the prices for all the parts and see where the money has gone.
I just don’t get where the money’s going on £4k RRP groupsets...
Actually, i do.
It's priced at what the market will bear.
And people will pay it. Same as £90k cars, which probably only cost three times as much to make and develop as the £20k Dacia.
I’ve seen the kind of prices that bike brands pay for OE kit and it’s eye-opening.
Yeah, i've seen a couple of pricelists/contracts, not for a few years mind, but typically mid range kit was less than 1/3rd of RRP. Unfortunately minimum volume was several thousand a year. And minimum total spend was also significant!
Road bikes with discs just look wrong
I also can't help thinking that there is a massive MAMIL tax going on with these prices - flicking through cyclist over Xmas and the cheapest bike they reviewed was 6.5k, and the new Madone was 14.5k!!!! Looked like a chickens arse from the back too.......
Heard a story of a chap who spent mega money on an MTB a few years ago, then tried to return it after his mates smoked him on its maiden ride…
Just go work in any med/high end shop and you'll see a few of these every week.
Buying lighter tyres (that save 5W but puncture if you look at them) or deep wheels (20W/pair, but only at 50 kph, add a cross wind and you'll be in the ditch, also proprietary spokes). Aero helmet (saves 10W, but makes your brain start to boil if the ambient temp is over 10 degrees or you start climbing), lightweight aero clothing, zips burst when they pull them over their rather rotund bellies.
And so on.
The worst are those who are so self unaware that they ask for their money back because it's not fit for purpose.
Buying lighter tyres (that save 5W but puncture if you look at them) or deep wheels (20W/pair, but only at 50 kph, add a cross wind and you’ll be in the ditch, also proprietary spokes). Aero helmet (saves 10W, but makes your brain start to boil if the ambient temp is over 10 degrees or you start climbing), lightweight aero clothing, zips burst when they pull them over their rather rotund bellies.
Seen it a lot on ride leading stuff too. It's quite entertaining. All the ride leaders are there on "basic" functional bikes with full mudguards and mechanical gears and nothing needs touching for the entire tour. The punters are all running around looking for charging points for their gears, fixing their 3rd puncture of the day because their "race use only" ultralight tyres have unsurprisingly failed to cope with a debris strewn country lane and wondering why they end up in the hedge every time a crosswind hits their 65mm aero wheels.
I replaced my big basic steel road bike with an alloy Cannondale synapse with 105. It's about 11kg
After 8 years I convinced my self a carbon bike would be faster. I ended up with a high mod carbon Cannondale synapse with ultegra. It's a bit over 8kg
The speed difference is....not that much.
Over the 130 mile ride to my in-laws the time it has taken me over the last 8 years it has been remarkably similar for steel Sora bike, alloy 105 and carbon ultegra bike.
The feel is loads if I swap between the two, but after 10 miles they are just a bike and after 120 it just hard work.
The main difference is the disk braked carbon one takes bigger tyres which make quite a difference to comfort.
Blimey 8 years to do 130 miles, you need to get training 😊
I agree about the aesthetics of dropped stays and disc brakes. They look shite. I think the peak was reached with the last 'normal' Cannondale Supersix Evo, rim brakes etc but what a beautiful bike (colours excepted unless you like the 'infected wound' look).
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What I can never work out is how a top end road frame costs as much as a top end mtb frame, when one has numerous moving parts, suspension etc, whilst the other doesn’t.
Also, overall cost of complete bikes is just nuts. I priced up an sworks tarmac and it was 2k cheaper to by the (silly expensive) frameset and exactly the same components/wheels etc at rrp than it was to buy the bike fully built from specialized.
I guess when you are in the market to spend 12k on a bike you aren’t that bothered about saving 2 grand however
If we could build a similar bike for cheaper using parts we get at RRP or the kind of slight discounts available to consumers, we know they are taking the absolute piss
People who assemble the bikes need paying and factories have running costs, shipping full bikes is more expensive and they have a higher duty rate than parts. It follows that you can always build a bike cheaper from parts, it's always been that way?
I priced up an sworks tarmac and it was 2k cheaper to by the (silly expensive) frameset and exactly the same components/wheels etc at rrp than it was to buy the bike fully built from specialized.
I guess when you are in the market to spend 12k on a bike you aren’t that bothered about saving 2 grand however
At that level you're probably paying some Premium Model Tax or for all the matchy S-Works level parts. A 12k bike might have a grand of cost linked to being a fully built bike from a Specialized showroom etc, the EU duty difference on parts Vs bike is ~10%.
I'd have loved one of those super six's. I chickened out of buying one as I thought it would be brutally hard in the name of speed.
The alloy Cannondale has done 4000 miles + some commuting since I go it.
I've only managed 1000 on the carbon one in the year I've had it.
The long rides would be a lot easier if I did more road riding 😉
it’s always been that way?
It's actually quite a recent thing in my experience,
Up until about 15 odd years ago it was the easiest way to get what you wanted, buy a full bike, then cherry pick the bits for upgrade and STILL have a bike you couldn't build yourself for less.
The days of bikes being more expensive than the sum of the parts is "relatively" new.
Only way to do it now is to buy last years all singing all dancing full bike at 25% discount because it's in last years colours. (or two years old for an even bigger discount!)
I'm sure I read somewhere that the really big volume manufacturers get ~90% rebate from Shitmano on parts hence it was cheaper to buy something complete rather than build up yourself from rrp minus any retail discounts. It's the same with motorbikes. A few years ago MCN 'built' (priced really) something (one of the popular 1L supersports IIRC) out of parts and it was something like ~£35k when complete bikes were in the £ teens.
Again motorbikes, if you think road vs mtb bicycles are poor value, compare a top notch road bicycle with a 1L supersports motorbike. There's probably only ~£5k difference!
The days of bikes being more expensive than the sum of the parts is “relatively” new.
Parts are generally available at lower prices now than in the past because grey imports became more common a while back and so many components make so little money at RRP/retail. That may be the cause more than the full bike RRPs, at least outside of the premium model part of the market.
Try thinking Campagnolo Record 10 would look best on your wishlist steel frameset and buying that stuff at a reasonable price : )
I’m sure I read somewhere that the really big volume manufacturers get ~90% rebate from Shitmano on parts
Big brands buy more and get better pricing as you'd expect, but nothing like that.
@jameso IIRC you're 'in the trade'?
It wasn't discount I'm thinking of it was volume related rebate and I'm CERTAIN the detail a closely guarded secret from those not getting 'it'. It's also from memory so could be off (results of noggin/Road interface).
Specialized Aethos. Discs aside I love the classic looks 🙂 no intergrated stem bollox
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It wasn’t discount I’m thinking of it was volume related rebate and I’m CERTAIN the detail a closely guarded secret from those not getting ‘it’. It’s also from memory so could be off (results of noggin/Road interface).
so how did you hear about it?
That's, why I added 'details' as in 'the details of' rather than the headline. And that Aethos looks nice. At least the stays are in the right place and it doest weigh 50% of Pluto...
Specialized Aethos. Discs aside I love the classic looks 🙂 no intergrated stem bollox
Yeah, I think one of those would be my Lottery Win bike.
Also, discs just look 'right' nowadays. The early ones with weird caliper placement and hose routing looked crap but they're so well integrated now that it looks smart and clean.
Tan wall tyres can get stuffed though. Plain simple black every time.
Aethos is one of the few modern road bikes I'd consider owning, most others are too try-hard road racing tech only really beneficial for the sharp end of pro racing. The Aethos would be even better if it didn't have discs... which is more or less identical to my decade old version, so no need to upgrade/downgrade... meanwhile, some big bike brands are laying off staff...
Nice uncluttered bike plus-one,shame about that anchor of a rear mech 😉 😃
As in everything,it's nice that we all love different things.
After decades of cycling (and lots of bikes), I like that I now know exactly what works for me.
I had a custom steel frame made for me a few years ago,this was the first time in my life I had gone anywhere near a bike fit.It turned out that all the micro tweeks I had done (by feel) over the years were very close to whatthe frame builder suggested,Fastshow voice>> "Nice"<<Fastshow voice .Even with the light wheels ,it's a heavy old thing,but I love it to bits and the weight vanishes when I am riding it.Ride what makes you smile 👍
