[Closed] Pedals - clipless vs flats

one of each

others will argue this,

for XC clipless, for DH flats. you will find riders in both camps who are exceptions.

XC i mean riding from A-B not "playing in the woods"

I ride mallets for all my riding (xc/dh) was in les get and morzine last year with them too. You get used to it and your out of them before you even think about it.

Depends on the bike to a degree. I prefer flats on the big full sus. bike, occasionally clipless for XC. If you can sit down and spin, flats are fine on climbs. Standing up and cranking is much easier on clipless - the singlespeed - always clipless! I used to find my feet bounced off on the hardtail in rocky stuff, so I swapped to clipless there too.

If you're worried about smacking a leg, you could get knee and shin pads. I've had a few moments with the pedal chewing up my calf, but nothing major, and to be honest, I tend to ride padless these days. Sticky soled shoes help in keeping your feet in place.

Clipless for everything

SPD's for everything, but I've never been to the Alps, dunno it I'd be using them out there.

SPD's for everything, but I've never been to the Alps, dunno it I'd be using them out there.

I have been to the alps, it is just bigger. You don't need to think of it any differently to how you normally ride*. The only caveat i would add is that bigger means more fatigue, arm pump, brake fade.

* unless normal riding is Sherwood in which case it is nothing like that...

Doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks, it's all about what you prefer. I used to use SPD's but both bikes now have flats. It's what I prefer, used for XC, long rides, DH, abroad. Try both and see what you like, only way to know which is best for you.

Whichever you prefer. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but for most of us (ie, not serious racers or dirt jumpers) the differences are slim enough that they'll never override your personal preference.

Best bet really is to try both (and give them a proper try), no simple answer but both can support you in different ways, both in riding now and in learning.

And then, once you've done that, decide which one you prefer and then join interminable internet arguments about which is better.

morzine + SPD + crash =

[IMG] [/IMG]

if you are going to ride SPDs in the alps get multi release SH55 cleats, ideally you want the SPD/cleat interface to give before your tibia...

My (humble)view on this is that if you're new to MTB then the best way to approach this is to learn to ride the bike on flats first. That way you learn to actually 'ride' the bike rather than be a passenger on it.

By this I mean you learn how to be a part of the bike without having to rely on a mechanical attachment.

Then after a year or two learn to ride clipped to the bike. If you find you like it carry on and if not switch back to flats.

Sadly it seems the golden era of flat pedal (DH) racers seems to be dwindling after only a brief flirtation in the limelight. The only rider that seems to be carrying the torch these days is Sam Hill and he seems to be a bit hit and miss these days. Gee, Peaty, Minnar, they're all racing clipped in.

BTW your shins will be fine; it's almost never your shins that get clobbered by the pins but rather your calves. When you slip a flat pedal it's typically your calves that get gouged; they bleed profusly and your partner will curse you for bleeding all over the bed sheets, but strangely enough it doesn't ever hurt.

Most of the scars I've got on my calves were from gouges (gouge really is the right word) I never even knew I'd done.

flats for jumping and downhill (I like the safety of getting a foot out on turns), clipless for XC as it makes SO much difference to my pedalling power.

get multi release SH55 cleats

Munqe-chick - Member
morzine + SPD + crash =

if you are going to ride SPDs in the alps get multi release SH55 cleats, ideally you want the SPD/cleat interface to give before your tibia...

My advice to a starter would be spds whilst you don't know any better... I had spds on my first bike, and it feels totally natural. I can still use flats when the fancy takes me, but I have never (not once) been stuck to my bike unable to un-clip. (FWIW that's XC, DH, commute, and road)

It really is an endless debate with no answer

IMHO if your not sure flats. At least to start with. There are clearly benefits to clipping in, but I thinkk while your learning its easier not to. Because

no need to have worry about cleat set up

you know you can step off the bike easily when you're not happy

if you want to hear a strong opinion in favour of flats listen to this

http://mtbstrengthcoach.podbean.com/2009/11/20/flats-vs-clipless-pedals/

I mainly agree with him, but its all opinion

Final thought with both sorts of pedals you need the right foot wear, its harder to get this wrong with spds as only the correct shoes have to threads. You still need the correct shoes for flats, bendy trainer are not comfortable for me

That dude really doesn't have a clue what he is going on about

The small power increase is only worth it at the highest levels. Most riders are not advanced enough to worry about it. You can produce far more power standing than you can sitting and spinning circles with clipless pedals. Spend the time you would have learning how to spin circles getting stronger and increasing your standing endurance and you’ll probably end up faster in the end, despite wearing flats.

How long can you stand up stamping flats compared to sitting spinning circles? What a load of crap.

This is a never ending debate though, really it comes down to what you are comfortable with.

Whatever you feel most confident with. I ride clipless on road , flats on Dh and 4x and clipless XC but the XC are the shimano with a big platform so I can unclip when I see a techy bit just in case.

morzine + SPD + crash =

I'd never ride 5:10s

[b]@ ridingscared: [/b] what is the clipless pedals with a big platform? Sounds ideal to be clipped in on the less technical easier parts and clip out when going down technical bits. I guess when going downhill I won't be pedaling so this sounds like a good idea but imagine for stability the platform needs to be wide with studs for grip? Do others have views on this?

I think there's a lot to be said for learning on flats, racing on clips and using whatever you feel like once you have good technique established but aren't chasing the last tenth of a second uphill or downhill. I'm still in the first stage...

FFS! everyone learns on flats 🙄

I've always ridden flats and am still getting used to clipless on my road bike. Considering trying out clipless on the mtb as recently I've been reading people saying they felt it made them commit more as the bail out option is harder!

what is the clipless pedals with a big platform?

Used to use Mallets, last thing I'd want would to be unclipped when going downhill, no where near as grippy as flats.

GW - Member

FFS! everyone learns on flats

I didn't - maybe thats why I am shite!

Actually for learning technique then I did ride flats a bit. Far prefer SPDS thos.

I would agree really with chiefgrooveguru above

I couldn't imagine using flats on a hardtail - I'd be getting my feet boosted off all the time. On a suspension bike it's fine, but as said above, if you're new then learn on flats to start with.

If you are new then flats would probably be a good idea, it will make it more enjoyable and you will be able to concentrate more on riding than worrying about being clipped in.

Also when learning to jump, drop, hop etc it is better to learn on flats first to learn the correct technique, then transfer it to spd's.

Mastering mountain bike skills by Brian Lopes is a good source of information for anything to do with MTB, from basic to pro pretty much covers everything, loads of info in there and you will learn a lot quicker.

TJ - So what pedals did you learn to ride a bike on then?

Start with flats, get used to handling the bike, proper technique etc. before worrying about the 'clipped in' aspect.

I used to be all about flats, but since riding SPDs on road, I have gained the confidence to use them off-road and would never go back to flats except for DH or slopestyle/northshore stuff.

Be under no false impressions - being clipped in is a BIG BOOST to climbing power. The only time I really miss flats is when hammering multiple tight switchbacks at speed - always good to throw a leg out without having to unclip - reclip - swap foot, unclip.

FYI - After riding a number of clippy-inny pedals - the ONLY ones I'd ride off-road are the SPDs as they are the only type I've tried that I can set 'light' and feel exactly when I have clipped out

use the pedals you want to 🙂

Will go for good flats and 5ten shoes with their sticky sole. Once I get the technique down, may consider clipless.

Have seen some knee + shin guards which would protect me but want to gauge where on the shin pedal-on-shin injuries usually happen? Reason I ask is because I am trying to decide between full length Fox Launch knee + shin guards or their shorter version? I am 5.5 (165cm) height and length of my shin is 30cm (11.8inch) from the bottom of the knee cap to the top of my foot. Worried the full length shin guard is too long for me and that the shorter version will not save my shins from the pedals?

toeclips GW. 😳 right from early on when I started cycling and when I first got into mountainbikes

didn't you learn as a child? I find it hard to believe any parent would send their kids off on two wheels for the first time strapped to the pedals.. mind you, you did say your mother dropped you and crashed her bike while you were in the womb.. I see a patern forming here. 😉

My very first bike did have flats IIRC. when I was about 10. Soon nicked and the second bike had clips

Flats + heels down = 🙂

I couldn't imagine using flats on a hardtail - I'd be getting my feet boosted off all the time. On a suspension bike it's fine, but as said above, if you're new then learn on flats to start with.

I used to have this riding flats on a HT, but it really is just down to technique... And decent shoes make a massive difference too. Good foot position and heels down I've not found much I have to slow down on, and then it's usually me being a fanny rather than any actual grip loss.

what is the clipless pedals with a big platform? Sounds ideal to be clipped in on the less technical easier parts and clip out when going down technical bits.

NOOOO.. its one or the other. clipless pedals regardless of the platform size are not designed to be ridden unclipped.
Recipe for disaster IMO... you're either clipped in and riding or clipped out and off the bike.. no half measures.

I rode with SPDs for the first time last w/end, swapped shoes and bikes with my mate. Rode up a hill along the top and then down the other side. I don't think they're as good as everyone makes out, I still prefer flats.

Kev

I've ridden spds since I started 8 years ago but for the last few months I've ridden on flats thinking just to see if I was missing out on anything.
For me the good points about flats are being able to move about on the bike more and being more dynamic. They also let me tackle sketchy steep stuff with more confidence. I need more time with drops and jumps though as it has highlighted my lack of technique on them. As for pin injuries I've only had a few nicks on the calf where ehen stationary rolled the bike forward and therefore the pedals into the back of my leg. It's amazing how easily the go through the skin!
Where clipless have the advantage is on steep and technical climbs where you need to leave the sadlle or your feet get bounced off the pedals.
In summary as others have said I would learn on flats to get your technique correct.

Keva - Member
I rode with SPDs for the first time last w/end, swapped shoes and bikes with my mate. Rode up a hill along the top and then down the other side. I don't think they're as good as everyone makes out, I still prefer flats.

Kev

😆

[b]cheers_drive[/b]

Clipless have the advantage in every situation, its your mind thats the restriction.

BTW your shins will be fine; it's almost never your shins that get clobbered by the pins but rather your calves. When you slip a flat pedal it's typically your calves that get gouged; they bleed profusly and your partner will curse you for bleeding all over the bed sheets, but strangely enough it doesn't ever hurt.

My shins are going to have to disagree with you there:

[img] [/img]

That was down to the bone sheath from a V8 when shoe slipped off pedal landing a bunnyhop, and it hurt like hell toothbrushing the dirt out and even more when the infected stitches had to get pulled out.

I've raked my shins a few times but never done my calves, unless you have a very heel orientated foot position I can't see how you can slip onto your calves.

Still prefer them to clipless though!

For me the good points about flats are being able to move about on the bike more and being more dynamic.

I'd agree with that as far as shimano spd goes vs flat pedals with any old shoes go. but if you ride flats with 5:10's I find that i'm not going to be able to move my foot in any direction once i've put my foot on the pedal.

I've been riding crankbrothers for the last 5 years after shimano destroyed my knees. The additional float that you get from crankbros pedals is superb. I even swapped my cleats to give me even more float and its amazing just how much lateral movement you get.

Shimano float ~6 deg, crankbros float upto 20deg. 5:10 on flats float ~zero i reckon 😉

I'd still recommend spd's to beginners (riders new to clipless) as the positive in/out feel/noise is great so you know whats going on, but once figured, other systems offer many more benefits imo.

been dabbling with clips for the last year for the first time in 15+years on flats.

if you want to go back and try and ride that sketchy line a few more times; 'get 'er a bit sideways'; or try that riding dodgy woodwork then flats.

if you dont want to go back and play on fun bits but just want to mile munch then clips are the way forward.

I've been riding with flats now for my first 2 years of serious off road biking and I think almost all of my pedal related lower leg injuries have been from snagging them on the pedals whilst pushing the bike.

One thing I'm curious about is do spd's give you much more power? I sometimes struggle to keep up with friends (who all use spd's apart from one who's a super fit single speeder) on longer rides so wondering if it would be worth changing? Are there any stats on how much more efficient spd's are?

for the people worried about their shins with flats - the biggest shin injury I've seen came from spds...

Think about it like this.

No mater what anyone tells you you can't spin properly with flat pedals, you can only push. This means you are pretty much only using your quads and a little bit of calf muscle.

Sit in a chair and push on the floor, see what muscles tense up.

With spd's, if you clip one foot in (for arguments sake), you can pedal in a circle using all of your available leg muscles, glutes, calves, hamstrings and quads because you are both pushing and pulling.

I don't have the stats but I would say SPD's are roughly 40% more efficient than flats given the muscle groups utilised.

Thats good to hear Flow, I think I'll try spd's soon. One reason I've stuck with flats is that it's suppose to promote good riding technique (According to Brian Lopes anyway and he's quite handy on a bike) as you learn how to bunny hop well as you can't just lift the bike with your legs.

In his book mastering mountain bike skills, I think there is a diagram explaining what I said.

flow

I don't have the stats

Now there's a surprise. My bullsh*t detector is tingling....

flow

but I would say SPD's are roughly 40% more efficient than flats given the muscle groups utilised.

...ah there it is. Stats or GTFO.

I wouldn't expect you to remotely understand anything I wrote up there dipsh*t. If you don't have anything constructive to say keep it shut.

Like I said GiantJaunt, have a look in his book if you have it, there is a whole section on the pros and cons of both.

Yeah flow that's the one. Maybe I should have a look at it!

low - Member

I wouldn't expect you to remotely understand anything I wrote up there

I understand someone pulling figures from their ass just fine thanks. You seem awfully agitated that someone would even dare question your mighty statistic generating ability.

If you don't have anything constructive to say keep it shut.

Post some evidence from a respected body to back up your claims or stop spouting laughable tripe.

dipsh*t.

its a confidence booster riding flats on techie bits as you can hop off easier. if you are just riding in circles covering some miles on not very tech trails then there is no point running flats.

Jimjam you are seriously retarded, I thought even someone with a brain as small as yours could understand;

"In Brian Lopes book mastering mountain bike skills there is a diagram explaining what I said"

Obviously you don't have the book, or any skills, so I will break it down for you into bite sized pieces.

Using SPD's

When you push the pedals from 1 o'clock to 6 o'clock you mainly use your quad muscles.

When you pull the pedals from 6 o'clock to 1 o'clock you mainly use your glutes, calves, hamstrings.

Using flats

You can't pull up because your foot is not attached to the pedal, therefore you can only push on the pedals. The muscle that does pretty much all the pushing is your quad and some calf.

Wow, wasnt that simple!

I'm not going to work out the exact percentage but surely even you can see whats going on there?

Obviously you think you know better, please explain what muscles you think are used when you use spd's and flats, I would love to know 😆

Its nothing like 40% more efficient. Some yes - a few % maybe. 40% - not on your nellie

Right, so if you are only pushing with flats, and you are pushing and pulling with SPD's, what would you say roughly the percentage is?

Controversial but how about the new Crank Brother Mallet 2 pedals (2012 model) together with 5:10 Hellcat / Maltese Falcon SPD compatible shoes? Greg Minnar uses this combo and I am not planning on being a professional or anything - just hoping to get into MTB for fun on weekends with friends.

Looks like the Mallets have adjustable studs for traction when riding unclipped. Thinking this could be good for the steep technical descents where I don't have the confidence to be clipped in but could then clip back in for the rest, esp dreaded (but unavoidable) climbs when on a 3 day tour across the Alps which I'm booked on (!!).

Right, so if you are only pushing with flats, and you are pushing and pulling with SPD's, what would you say roughly the percentage is?

You can pull with flats, not as much as SPDs, but you can pull with them no problem.

SPD's are soooooooooooooo last year. 😉

Flow, you need to re-read that chapter of MMBS, you have it way wrong! As it explains you can absolutely spin properly with flats, as proven by all those BMX pros whose spinning slays the typical SPD'd MTBer. Spinning isn't all about pulling up, it's about pushing forwards, then down and pulling back.

The thing is though, if you want the power on the pull section of the stroke, you need to adapt your style to do it, it doesn't automatically suddent become a useful pull.

When out and about, I find that I have to think about the pull stroke section if i want anything out of it, and more often than not, I dont bother ... i do find that I get some extra power by trying to slide the pedal forward over the crest of the stroke when clipped in. Its enough to maintain a speed on a slight incline etc.

For my commute, i went to flats over the winter so I could ride with warmer/waterproof boots. Now going back to spds, and plodding along as normal I'd say the difference is about 10 to 15%. It was enough to hold a slightly higher speed or a higher gear.

Personally, I like the clipped in feel, but have the float as large as possible.

chiefgrooveguru

I know what you are saying but you do pull up, in a wiping your foot on the floor kind of motion if that makes sense.

People who race BMX use SPD's, have done for years.

I use a mix of both these days. Flats on the big bike for alpine singletrack, DH, jumps, etc. SPDs (well, Times) on the lighter bike for big days out.

For me, the reasons are mostly just more confidence in the flats, especially when there are big consequences from a comedy dismount. That and flats are just more fun! 😀

I'd recommend newcomers to MTB to ride flats while learning some basic riding techniques (not "learning to ride a bike" GW!) - e.g. simple weight distribution/posture, cornering, wheelies/manuals, jumps/drops, etc.

Learning technique aside, I don't really have a strong opinion either-way.

Regarding efficiency, I think it's pretty well-established that no-one, not even top roadies, can really pull up on their clips on the upstroke. The best you can hope for is to un-weight completely (even if you think you're pulling up dead hard). You can "spin" pretty well on flats, but you do need to use more foot movement to get a push across the top and a pull across the bottom and I think you lose out on a few degrees of crank-motion where you'd still get some input if clipped-in. With all that said, there's definitely a noticeable efficiency benefit from clips, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near 40%.

[url= http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=8076 ]Some interesting reading here.[/url] (just the first hit on google searching for "pedalling dynamics".

You can pull with flats, not as much as SPDs, but you can pull with them no problem.

I find that pulling's not so easy when I'm in my cycling kit.

Never used spds in my puff and I doubt I ever would - unless I was on the road. I'm more interested in having fun on my bike than being an efficient pedaler but can get 45% more height when i bunnyhop by cable-tying my hands to the bars.

First trip I did to the alps I did on spds and was quite happy with them but the second trip I did on flats and had more confidence for bailing. For general use I use spds, for playing about I use flats so I can bin the bike faster.

It's just a tradeoff, there's no right or wrong.

Pages 62 and 63 of Brian Lopes mastering mountain bike skills is where the diagram /explanation is.

flats if you are straight
clipped in if you are not

I'm a noob and I use V8 copies and (hopefully not for much longer!) my Stan Smiths. I use SPDs on my road bike, but I don't feel confident enough yet on the MTB to clip in.

I started off wearing shin pads (my husband's old footy ones) under long socks. A pretty sight, I can tell you! After a few rides though, I still hadn't slipped off the pedals so I ditched the shin pads. The pedals are so sticky, even without 5 10s, that I have no float whatsoever. I did slip a bit last night though (no injury thankfully).

I'm going to carry on with the flats for a while yet, and get some decent shoes. As a beginner I haven't yet grasped what benefit I would get from being clipped in. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. For now, anyway.

this is a funny old thread.

with clipless, for a casual rider like me pedalling efficiency isn't of any interest, but because you are fixed to the bike things like bunnyhopping and moving the bike around with your feet are a lot easier. You can obviously learn to bunnyhop etc with flats but its obviously much easier with the bike physically attached to your feet. Mind you now that everyone rides 5" full sussers on trails built by diggers and rollers does anyone actually bunnyhop things any more?!

I used toeclips for years, tried clipless and didn't get on with it, and have gotten used to flats now. Do tend to bash them off stuff more than did with clipless though.

The pedals are so sticky, even without 5 10s, that I have no float whatsoever

the biggest shin injury I've seen came from spds...

After several years on clipless I thought I'd give flats a go using skate shoes.Took me a while to to relearn how to pedal,jump and bunny hop but now I wouldn't go back to clipless off road.Esp. since I changed to am40 shoes.(Evan more grip.)Still use clipless on my road bike though.......

I have been on flats since last Summer. (I blamed a hefty gouge in the leg on SPDs due to still being stuck to the bike in a hapless OTB incident as well as many topples etc etc)

I have read with interest the foot position comments so I have been riding with the foot much more central (practicing on the way to work too) What I have found is that dropping your heel has a MUCH greater effect when your foot is here and you can really fell the bike "pushing back"

This is important for me as the biggest difference I found between the 2 was going over terrain where the ground falls away - like into bombholes etc

I wouldn't expect you to remotely understand anything I wrote up there dipsh*t. If you don't have anything constructive to say keep it shut.

Jimjam you are seriously retarded, I thought even someone with a brain as small as yours could understand;

"In Brian Lopes book mastering mountain bike skills there is a diagram explaining what I said"

I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity to say that you're a prick, and a gormless one. As per my original post, you've just pulled completely arbitrary "stats" out of your ass. All you've got to back up your pretty ridiculous made up statistic is a diagram in a book written by two mountainbikers. Not doctors, or physios, two bikers. The main author Lee McCormack is selling mtb fitness training programes on his site that he asked James Wilson to create for him. A person who, according to you

really doesn't have a clue what he is going on about

I had a look online and the page, no, paragraph that you are referencing doesn't mention anything, nothing, about quantifying efficiency gains with spds. All it does is explain the mechanics of a good pedal stroke for the hard of thinking.

So, again, do you have any reputable evidence to back up your "40% increase in efficiency" statistic that you made up, other than a book written by a couple of mountainbikers, which doesn't even remotely suggest what you are claiming?

Obviously you don't have the book, or any skills.

You're right, I don't have the book. I've never felt the need to buy a book to teach me how to ride a bike. Maybe because I ride flats.

The o.p is new to the sport, he would benefit from balanced informed opinion, not more lies and half truths propagated by internet riding legends like you.

With spd's, if you clip one foot in (for arguments sake), you can pedal in a circle using all of your available leg muscles, glutes, calves, hamstrings and quads because you are both pushing and pulling.

I don't have the stats but I would say SPD's are roughly 40% more efficient than flats given the muscle groups utilised.

You can't pull up because your foot is not attached to the pedal, therefore you can only push on the pedals. The muscle that does pretty much all the pushing is your quad and some calf.

[post edited. Mod]

Maybe you should shut your stupid mouth. How on earth you can justify the 40% more powerful I don't know. I have read several articles about it and its clear its actually very hard to quantify any increase in power tho must of us believe there is some

FWIW GW can walk the walk as well as talk the talk

I said [b]roughly[/b] 40% . Looking on the net its more like 30%, sh*it I was 10% out!

[another post edited. Mod]

Evidence? I believe its only a few % thats what is normally found- and less of the swearing you clown. Read the rules,

[yet another post edited. Mod]

Oh I have - I have looked into it before. a few % is what I remember as a quantified difference

I somehow think you won't be staying on the forum long. Rules is rules

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee