[Closed] Pedals - clipless vs flats

Thats good to hear Flow, I think I'll try spd's soon. One reason I've stuck with flats is that it's suppose to promote good riding technique (According to Brian Lopes anyway and he's quite handy on a bike) as you learn how to bunny hop well as you can't just lift the bike with your legs.

In his book mastering mountain bike skills, I think there is a diagram explaining what I said.

flow

I don't have the stats

Now there's a surprise. My bullsh*t detector is tingling....

flow

but I would say SPD's are roughly 40% more efficient than flats given the muscle groups utilised.

...ah there it is. Stats or GTFO.

I wouldn't expect you to remotely understand anything I wrote up there dipsh*t. If you don't have anything constructive to say keep it shut.

Like I said GiantJaunt, have a look in his book if you have it, there is a whole section on the pros and cons of both.

Yeah flow that's the one. Maybe I should have a look at it!

low - Member

I wouldn't expect you to remotely understand anything I wrote up there

I understand someone pulling figures from their ass just fine thanks. You seem awfully agitated that someone would even dare question your mighty statistic generating ability.

If you don't have anything constructive to say keep it shut.

Post some evidence from a respected body to back up your claims or stop spouting laughable tripe.

dipsh*t.

its a confidence booster riding flats on techie bits as you can hop off easier. if you are just riding in circles covering some miles on not very tech trails then there is no point running flats.

Jimjam you are seriously retarded, I thought even someone with a brain as small as yours could understand;

"In Brian Lopes book mastering mountain bike skills there is a diagram explaining what I said"

Obviously you don't have the book, or any skills, so I will break it down for you into bite sized pieces.

Using SPD's

When you push the pedals from 1 o'clock to 6 o'clock you mainly use your quad muscles.

When you pull the pedals from 6 o'clock to 1 o'clock you mainly use your glutes, calves, hamstrings.

Using flats

You can't pull up because your foot is not attached to the pedal, therefore you can only push on the pedals. The muscle that does pretty much all the pushing is your quad and some calf.

Wow, wasnt that simple!

I'm not going to work out the exact percentage but surely even you can see whats going on there?

Obviously you think you know better, please explain what muscles you think are used when you use spd's and flats, I would love to know 😆

Its nothing like 40% more efficient. Some yes - a few % maybe. 40% - not on your nellie

Right, so if you are only pushing with flats, and you are pushing and pulling with SPD's, what would you say roughly the percentage is?

Controversial but how about the new Crank Brother Mallet 2 pedals (2012 model) together with 5:10 Hellcat / Maltese Falcon SPD compatible shoes? Greg Minnar uses this combo and I am not planning on being a professional or anything - just hoping to get into MTB for fun on weekends with friends.

Looks like the Mallets have adjustable studs for traction when riding unclipped. Thinking this could be good for the steep technical descents where I don't have the confidence to be clipped in but could then clip back in for the rest, esp dreaded (but unavoidable) climbs when on a 3 day tour across the Alps which I'm booked on (!!).

Right, so if you are only pushing with flats, and you are pushing and pulling with SPD's, what would you say roughly the percentage is?

You can pull with flats, not as much as SPDs, but you can pull with them no problem.

SPD's are soooooooooooooo last year. 😉

Flow, you need to re-read that chapter of MMBS, you have it way wrong! As it explains you can absolutely spin properly with flats, as proven by all those BMX pros whose spinning slays the typical SPD'd MTBer. Spinning isn't all about pulling up, it's about pushing forwards, then down and pulling back.

The thing is though, if you want the power on the pull section of the stroke, you need to adapt your style to do it, it doesn't automatically suddent become a useful pull.

When out and about, I find that I have to think about the pull stroke section if i want anything out of it, and more often than not, I dont bother ... i do find that I get some extra power by trying to slide the pedal forward over the crest of the stroke when clipped in. Its enough to maintain a speed on a slight incline etc.

For my commute, i went to flats over the winter so I could ride with warmer/waterproof boots. Now going back to spds, and plodding along as normal I'd say the difference is about 10 to 15%. It was enough to hold a slightly higher speed or a higher gear.

Personally, I like the clipped in feel, but have the float as large as possible.

chiefgrooveguru

I know what you are saying but you do pull up, in a wiping your foot on the floor kind of motion if that makes sense.

People who race BMX use SPD's, have done for years.

I use a mix of both these days. Flats on the big bike for alpine singletrack, DH, jumps, etc. SPDs (well, Times) on the lighter bike for big days out.

For me, the reasons are mostly just more confidence in the flats, especially when there are big consequences from a comedy dismount. That and flats are just more fun! 😀

I'd recommend newcomers to MTB to ride flats while learning some basic riding techniques (not "learning to ride a bike" GW!) - e.g. simple weight distribution/posture, cornering, wheelies/manuals, jumps/drops, etc.

Learning technique aside, I don't really have a strong opinion either-way.

Regarding efficiency, I think it's pretty well-established that no-one, not even top roadies, can really pull up on their clips on the upstroke. The best you can hope for is to un-weight completely (even if you think you're pulling up dead hard). You can "spin" pretty well on flats, but you do need to use more foot movement to get a push across the top and a pull across the bottom and I think you lose out on a few degrees of crank-motion where you'd still get some input if clipped-in. With all that said, there's definitely a noticeable efficiency benefit from clips, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near 40%.

[url= http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=8076 ]Some interesting reading here.[/url] (just the first hit on google searching for "pedalling dynamics".

You can pull with flats, not as much as SPDs, but you can pull with them no problem.

I find that pulling's not so easy when I'm in my cycling kit.

Never used spds in my puff and I doubt I ever would - unless I was on the road. I'm more interested in having fun on my bike than being an efficient pedaler but can get 45% more height when i bunnyhop by cable-tying my hands to the bars.

First trip I did to the alps I did on spds and was quite happy with them but the second trip I did on flats and had more confidence for bailing. For general use I use spds, for playing about I use flats so I can bin the bike faster.

It's just a tradeoff, there's no right or wrong.

Pages 62 and 63 of Brian Lopes mastering mountain bike skills is where the diagram /explanation is.

flats if you are straight
clipped in if you are not

I'm a noob and I use V8 copies and (hopefully not for much longer!) my Stan Smiths. I use SPDs on my road bike, but I don't feel confident enough yet on the MTB to clip in.

I started off wearing shin pads (my husband's old footy ones) under long socks. A pretty sight, I can tell you! After a few rides though, I still hadn't slipped off the pedals so I ditched the shin pads. The pedals are so sticky, even without 5 10s, that I have no float whatsoever. I did slip a bit last night though (no injury thankfully).

I'm going to carry on with the flats for a while yet, and get some decent shoes. As a beginner I haven't yet grasped what benefit I would get from being clipped in. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. For now, anyway.

this is a funny old thread.

with clipless, for a casual rider like me pedalling efficiency isn't of any interest, but because you are fixed to the bike things like bunnyhopping and moving the bike around with your feet are a lot easier. You can obviously learn to bunnyhop etc with flats but its obviously much easier with the bike physically attached to your feet. Mind you now that everyone rides 5" full sussers on trails built by diggers and rollers does anyone actually bunnyhop things any more?!

I used toeclips for years, tried clipless and didn't get on with it, and have gotten used to flats now. Do tend to bash them off stuff more than did with clipless though.

The pedals are so sticky, even without 5 10s, that I have no float whatsoever

the biggest shin injury I've seen came from spds...

After several years on clipless I thought I'd give flats a go using skate shoes.Took me a while to to relearn how to pedal,jump and bunny hop but now I wouldn't go back to clipless off road.Esp. since I changed to am40 shoes.(Evan more grip.)Still use clipless on my road bike though.......

I have been on flats since last Summer. (I blamed a hefty gouge in the leg on SPDs due to still being stuck to the bike in a hapless OTB incident as well as many topples etc etc)

I have read with interest the foot position comments so I have been riding with the foot much more central (practicing on the way to work too) What I have found is that dropping your heel has a MUCH greater effect when your foot is here and you can really fell the bike "pushing back"

This is important for me as the biggest difference I found between the 2 was going over terrain where the ground falls away - like into bombholes etc

I wouldn't expect you to remotely understand anything I wrote up there dipsh*t. If you don't have anything constructive to say keep it shut.

Jimjam you are seriously retarded, I thought even someone with a brain as small as yours could understand;

"In Brian Lopes book mastering mountain bike skills there is a diagram explaining what I said"

I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity to say that you're a prick, and a gormless one. As per my original post, you've just pulled completely arbitrary "stats" out of your ass. All you've got to back up your pretty ridiculous made up statistic is a diagram in a book written by two mountainbikers. Not doctors, or physios, two bikers. The main author Lee McCormack is selling mtb fitness training programes on his site that he asked James Wilson to create for him. A person who, according to you

really doesn't have a clue what he is going on about

I had a look online and the page, no, paragraph that you are referencing doesn't mention anything, nothing, about quantifying efficiency gains with spds. All it does is explain the mechanics of a good pedal stroke for the hard of thinking.

So, again, do you have any reputable evidence to back up your "40% increase in efficiency" statistic that you made up, other than a book written by a couple of mountainbikers, which doesn't even remotely suggest what you are claiming?

Obviously you don't have the book, or any skills.

You're right, I don't have the book. I've never felt the need to buy a book to teach me how to ride a bike. Maybe because I ride flats.

The o.p is new to the sport, he would benefit from balanced informed opinion, not more lies and half truths propagated by internet riding legends like you.

With spd's, if you clip one foot in (for arguments sake), you can pedal in a circle using all of your available leg muscles, glutes, calves, hamstrings and quads because you are both pushing and pulling.

I don't have the stats but I would say SPD's are roughly 40% more efficient than flats given the muscle groups utilised.

You can't pull up because your foot is not attached to the pedal, therefore you can only push on the pedals. The muscle that does pretty much all the pushing is your quad and some calf.

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Maybe you should shut your stupid mouth. How on earth you can justify the 40% more powerful I don't know. I have read several articles about it and its clear its actually very hard to quantify any increase in power tho must of us believe there is some

FWIW GW can walk the walk as well as talk the talk

I said [b]roughly[/b] 40% . Looking on the net its more like 30%, sh*it I was 10% out!

[another post edited. Mod]

Evidence? I believe its only a few % thats what is normally found- and less of the swearing you clown. Read the rules,

[yet another post edited. Mod]

Oh I have - I have looked into it before. a few % is what I remember as a quantified difference

I somehow think you won't be staying on the forum long. Rules is rules

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

With spd's, if you clip one foot in (for arguments sake), you can pedal in a circle using all of your available leg muscles, glutes, calves, hamstrings and quads because you are both pushing and pulling

IIRC there's a bigger difference between shoes than between pedal types.

You lose aproximately 15% of the power through a flat pedal Vs SPD, and another 15% in the shoe itself, use a stiff soled shoe and you get back that 15%.*

You can't pull up on the pedal while sat down, you can do the maths, if you pulled as much as you push (or even the 40% figure you staed probably) the ligaments in your knee and hip would snap. Look at your quads, claves and hamstrings, these do most of the work in cycling, they're big, prety much the biggest muscles in your body. Look at the muscles in your leg that pull, the tibialis anterior and hip flexor, they're tiny in comparison, the truth is your leg is just about capable of lifting its own weight, cycling at 80-90rpm it doesnt even manage that! Even riders who believed they were pedaling perfect circles (and had a very smooth power output) were actualy still puching down on the up-stroke!

The difference is when stood up for a sprint the clipless rider will have more power, sat down and spinning and there's so little in it you'd be supprised.

*looking at it the other way round, using clips is worth 15% and the shoes are worth 15%, the TDF speeded up the year SPD's came in to replace toe straps by something like 5% as suddenly shoes had to be much better made to with stand the greater force transfered as they were more efficient (no sole as such anymore, just a cleat and a plastic shoe).

[url= http://www.site.hbcutthecoursein1990.com/Announcements.html ]LOPES IS A DICK[/url]

Flow - It seems Jimjam had you sussed afterall 😆

FWIW. I've been reading Lee's site fairly often for many years and have seen/read his book a few years back. the book is good, you are clearly not capable of comprehending most of it tho you clueless balloon .

82.5% of statistics are made up on the spot

you are all a bunch of dumb ****s

[post edited. Mod]

I was doing a bit of one legged pedalling on flats the other day. (Lost a pedal doing a hike-a-bike*)

It would have been useful to have toestraps (you can keep your spds), but I was still able to pedal ok on one crank. With the right technique you can get quite a lot of up pull with flat pedals. There's only a small arc with no thrust.

[url= http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2148/5706507988_ed9c5eef8e.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2148/5706507988_ed9c5eef8e.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Oops! no pedal.

*In case anyone wants to look - it's somewhere in the heather on north side of Ben Wyvis.

(And don't use Quick Detach pedals if you're bush bashing. 🙂 )

I thorougly enjoy reading the arguments about flats versus SPDs!

I'm surprised that people put so much emphasis on efficiency as I don't ride mountain bike to be efficient, just to enjoy myself! People should just ride with pedals that they like and get on with and not worry about 15% here and there unless they are trying to win races etc.

My only contribution to the discussion would be that when people use SPDs on my skills courses you have to add at least 30 minutes to the day as the extra run up lenghts, aborted attempts at stuff as they haven't managed to clip in in time and failed attempts at starting on technical climbs etc, all adds to the time it takes to practise the various skills I teach. (However the toppling over sideways incidents do seem to cause a few laughs!)

I love the clicky noise of clipping in shoes into SPDs but it doesn't outweigh the flexibility and simplicity of flat pedals, instead I just put in 15% more effort and still keep up with the people I ride with.

Using clipless for extra power is just cheating in my book! Reckon the boys in the Giro would've descended much quicker on the gravel today if they had flats and fatter tyres on!

It certainly is curious, the way some people seem to get a bit emotional about other people's pedals. I'm not sure why some flat pedal riders are so defensive. Or some clip riders come to that.

Clearly the pedalling bit is more efficient - I think that is evident from seeing what racers use. As to the [i]degree [/i]of difference - well that harldy matters, since most people are riding for fun. One small factor is just plain efficiency over a long period - if I can do something to make me a fraction fresher after four or five hours, then that's pretty appealing to me.

From my experience there is a bit of a distraction factor when learning mtb-ing with clips. But (important this) there is also just as bad a distraction if there is an increased temptation to put your foot down. These two at least cancel each other out.

So it comes down to what you prefer - either is fun - neither is a disadvantage over-all.

Using clipless for extra power is just cheating in my book! Reckon the boys in the Giro would've descended much quicker on the gravel today if they had flats and fatter tyres on!