[Closed] No helmets - Why? Are they mad?

its a question ive always wanted to ask TJ, and didnt see the point of starting a whole new thread.

i understand the research will be different etc, but opinion on this seems so strong i wondered if TJ and the other anti-helmets would extend this policy to other things in life that might involve taking a knock on the noggin? (not just sports)

Ah the thread that refuses to die.

TJ you must use cut and paste to prevent RSI.

Out of interest any research been done to see how well helmets skid across the ground? Last time I had an off on the road, cracked the left side of my helmet on the tarmac and it just skidded along, didn't seem to rotate my neck at all. (obviously anecdotal I know) Maybe I was just lucky.

TJ do you automatically get an email when the word 'helmet' appears on the forum?

FFS TJ, enough of the pics, not everyone loves that thing as much as u! I think your actually worried about helmet hair more than cracked skull, am I right!

OK, I can't resist. Regardless of what the research says, I have had too many offs that have resulted in landing on my head - and in some cases cracking helmets - that I'm not about to stop wearing them...

...unless they become hideously unfashionable 😆

If people don't want to wear a helmet, fair enough, arguing that there are no benefit's to wearing one is just acting a ****! behave you clowns

Just because someone doesn't think helmets should not be compulsory, either legally or just socially speaking, doesn't mean they are anti-helmet - more likely just pro-choice.

As for helmets on building sites - it might be a more telling question to consider an activity which does produce head injuries, but where helmets [i]aren't[/i] normally worn - like driving a car for example.

I don't think most people are saying that they have no benefit whatsoever - more like the benefits may well be misunderstood and exaggerated, especially when active safety effects such as riding more defensively are taken into account. The assumption that a helmet will do everything for you and keep you 100% safe is just as dumb as the claim that not wearing a helmet means certain death.

T666DOM

Yes - plenty. have a look on http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1182.html for discussion and links and I have found others in peer reviewed journals

philconsequence

Its all about two things to me. Evidence based practice and risk assessment. so the answer is " it depends"

Kobra - 🙂

How about this one then? Note wheels off the ground = helmets on heads

[url= http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/2957469171_cf5674c13f_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/2957469171_cf5674c13f_z.jp g"/> ?zz=1[/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/2957469171/ ]tandem jump[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

Watch the crash real at the end of bike films.

MTB: Lots of dust (nothing's filmed int he UK :p )

BMX: Invariably a lot of blood, usualy from the head.

Which branch of the sport has a high rate of helmet wearing?

On holliday I was (lightly) ribbed for being the only guy in a full face, end of day one one of the other guys was offering 300euro (I think he was half joking) after trashing his Fox Flux and taking a chunk out of his upper lip.

Even if it only prevents 'minor' injuries like cuts and concussion I think its worthwhile.

No offence TJ, thanks but no thanks. Life's too short for dry articles , I always wear a helmet on the bike whatever the terrain or journey length. That's my choice, and whatever people decide is up to them be it helmet or no helmet.
The advantage of a democracy is you can do what you want however foolish others may perceive it!

[url] http://www.eta.co.uk/2010/10/14/cardboard-cycle-helmet-can-be-recycled ][/url]

Cardboard helmets are the future 😉

@ tj

your other half is braver than me! there's no way i'd be happy getting air on a tandem.
you must of been going pretty quick to get both wheels off the ground.

this makes me laugh, ive been mtbing for 19 years, never wear a helmet apart from trail centres where i feel pressured to wear one, leave people to make their own risk assesment..

No helmets - are they mad?
[img] [/img]

Right so he rips his FACE so should wear a helmet that has no face coverage?

Hang on.. helmets stick out at the front, so if you land face first you only graze your chin and the end of your nose, surely? In the two helmet trashing accidents I've borne close witness to, that's exactly what happened. They were faceplants, and the bit of helmet sticking out of the front protected the face.

That's why it's stupid to wear them sat on the back of your head like you see sometimes.

go on then, I'll bite.
say you went over the bars and bumped your head at fairly low speed on this: [img] [/img]
which outcome is most likely:
A) your head hurts less with a helmet on,
B) the helmet makes no difference or might make injury worse...?

speaking from personal experience of similar offs on rocky trails, I know which answer I'd give 😐

What I don't understand is why people get so upset and insulting toward people not wearing helmets - people like TJ aren't saying that its wrong to wear helmets and that there is absolutely no need for them, all they are saying is that in some situations they are not as useful as they are made out to be and its up to the individual to calculate the risk and decide if the type of cycling they are doing warrants wearing a helmet or not.

Seems a simple enough concept to me - Personally, I wear a helmet pretty much all the time but that's my choice. I certainly don't feel threatened by the fact other people have different opinions on the issue.

I know car drivers who've told me that because cyclists quite often wear a helmet it was perfectly OK to run into them because the helmet would stop them being injured.
I tend to wear a helmet but I don't always, I don't care either way really, however, take a look at countries with extremely high cycle use and compare helmet wearing figures with those countries that have extremely litigious societies and have devolved responsibility for injury away from the main causes to the main affected.

I don't care anymore if people don't want to wear helmets, its when the small majority sue because they have taken a knock to the head.

Choice is always the better option.

Thank you rudedog. someone understands!

its up to the individual to calculate the risk

Yeah but individuals are notoriously bad about calculating risk. Not that many years ago people would drink loads then drive home without a seatbelt and a baby loose on the back seat without a second thought.

Here is my unhelpful contribution- most stats show that cyclists riding offroad are massively more likely to suffer a damaging knee injury than a damaging head injury. And the case for kneepads preventing injury is stronger than the case for helmets, and there's no argument at all that kneepads cause injury or increase the severity of injury.

Yet if you wear knee pads, you're a poof, whereas if you don't wear a helmet, you're a moron.

So if you're in this thread pouring scorn on people who don't wear helmets, I hope you wear knee pads

here's a quote from one of the 'studies' referred to earlier:

While it must be acknowledged that police casualty reports are prone to under-reporting, particularly of incidents involving lower severity casualties the attractive feature of these data are that by definition they only concern road casualties.

that says quite a lot I think. Its all about the sample taken containing only examples of the point that is being made. Nicholas Taleb explains it a lot better than I could in The Black Swan/Fooled by Randomness, both excellent reads regardless of whether you wear a helmet or not

aP - Member
I know car drivers who've told me that because cyclists quite often wear a helmet it was perfectly OK to run into them...

For the purpose of the perpetual STW helmet-debate-a-thon, I've had one potentially serious off this year, OTB on a 3-4' drop-off, full force on me bonce. Glad I had my helmet on...slightly dazed and on my way in a minute or two. No idea whether I'd have suffered anything more serious without it, but I'm sure it would have hurt a tad more. Agree 100% with TJ though, that it's not always necessary and people should be smart enough to make a sensible choice - I think his two tandem photos illustrate this perfectly.

These helmet threads are funny and great debate. PLenty of people glad they were wearing on in crashes. I have never met anyone say "so glad I wasn't wearing a helmet, I avoided that rotational injury" (has anyone?)
I almost always wear one as I never know when I will come off and except maybe in the odd case it has to be reduce the risk of injury no matter what scientific report anyone can come up with. This convinced me though..... Cheers Josh

molgrips - Member

Yeah but individuals are notoriously bad about calculating risk. Not that many years ago people would drink loads then drive home without a seatbelt and a baby loose on the back seat without a second thought.

Intoxication through alcohol actually impairs your ability to calculate risk so that's a pretty poor analogy.

I am happy for people not to wear helmet... As long as they pay for their own NHS bills :p

Odd lot the French - sorting out the UK Health Service from a country where you have to go and buy your own sutures and pay [b]before[/b] they will treat you 🙄

On the helmets debate people vastly overstate the odds,

cycling is a safe pursuit and head injury rates are low.

TJ - I can't believe you have been drawn into this yet again. Must be all that cold wind in your hair clouding your judgement 😉

Yeah I know. I been attempting to give info to people when they asked for it.

And take the piss a bit as well

Must be the hole in my head

Tomato soup and garlic bread rocks!

Yet if you wear knee pads, you're a poof, whereas if you don't wear a helmet, you're a moron.

But I draw the line at kids, I believe in lids and other protection, and my kids have to wear it, so this is where the freedom of choice argument falls down?

Kids. Hmmmmmmmmmm Several points

Are they capable of making a rational assessment ( gillick competence)
Young kids skulls are softer, some kids skills are crap, some take lots of risks.

I think its recognised morally and legally that adults can and must make decisions for kids in some circumstances.

Just make sure that their helmets fit and are done up properly.

As an aside - how many of you helmet evangelists wear them properly - less than half even of serious mtbers IME Most have the straps loose

Rusty nobheadcheese - I've pretty much cycled 4+ times a week every week since 1986, I meet lots of people, sometimes they're not very nice. You might want to wind your neck in before you go back to school tomorrow or you'll get detention. 😐

I'm sorry aP, you've confused me. Don't feel bad, it's easily done.

What is the correlation between the number of times you go out cycling each week, vs the number of car drivers who you [i]claim[/i] are happy to mow down cyclists, based solely on the fact that they're wearing helmets and as such are adequately protected against motor vehicles...therefore fair game for their hit-and-run antics? You see, I know dozens of people (I don't mean to boast, I'm a popular guy) but I don't know anyone who drives a car and would be prepared to hold their hand up to that sort of cock-noshing twaddle. So either you know a lot of monstrous bell-ends, or you're getting carried away with your posting.

School tomorrow? I wish! Kids these days, they don't know they're born...

p.s. Rusty nobheadcheese...I like it 😀 although Rusty Smegma may have been a more erudite insult.

I still managed to fracture my skull in a DH accident 5 years ago at Inneliethen punching a big hole in a cheekbone despite wearing a Giro DH helmet which now i think has crap protection compared to a motocross helmet...
yeah downhill riding is more severe than xc riding with grave consequences from a mistake...but...folk on here are talking about riding easy xc trails/roads without helmets...
the folk on here like my friend TJ who chooses to ride (and the other riders) without a helmet arnt going around shouting about it and trying to enforce there views on everyone else, they have made there choice and are only on here saying why they choose to ride lid-less...
seems its the other folk who have an issue about it...
i see folk riding horses without helmets on the beach alot..
and come the cold of winter i too ride beaches with head wrapped up in a beanie...as do most winter Alaskan/snow bikers..over solid icy (dangerous?) ground. Dutch cyclists dont where helmets, but there country is educated and open armed to cyclists...
More folk are suffering injuries and health disorders from smoking and drinking in the UK than cycling head injuries...
cycling is one of the few last acts of freedom we can do...we can now go where we want-well here in Scotland anyway, lets enjoy that freedom however we want to... 😮

rudedog - Member
What I don't understand is why people get so upset and insulting toward people not wearing helmets - people like TJ aren't saying that its wrong to wear helmets and that there is absolutely no need for them, all they are saying is that in some situations they are not as useful as they are made out to be and its up to the individual to calculate the risk and decide if the type of cycling they are doing warrants wearing a helmet or not.

Seems a simple enough concept to me - Personally, I wear a helmet pretty much all the time but that's my choice. I certainly don't feel threatened by the fact other people have different opinions on the issue.

I agree.

TJ's first pic shows a nice easy trail without helmets, quite sensibly TJ and his tandem partner are wearing helmets for the 2nd pic which shows something a little more technical to ride.

Two perfectly acceptable scenarios there.

Similarly, I often 'nip into town' using off road cycle lanes, I don't wear a helmet for this as I'm A) Not using the roads whatsoever and B) Not riding anything technical. Should I choose to use the roads, I also choose a helmet but this is my choice and I certainly would not judge others should they choose not to.

Off road technical singletrack I use standard lids the majority of the time, sometimes combined with pads, sometimes I wear a Met Parachute and yes I am aware it;s no substitute for full face but it does give me a little more confidence knowing that chin guard will probably take some of the force whilst snapping on impact. I'm also considering a full face for winter as you can pick up some bargains and I reckon I'll handle the heat inside while it's so cold outside.

Funnily enough, you also get judged for wearing protection by those that like to sneer 'over armoured weekend warrior no idea boy', they might be right, I wear this stuff when I up my game to something outside my comfort zone with the theory I can return to these obstacles with standard lid one day in the knowledge I now have a bit more skill and know how,or carry on with the higher protection, it's my adult head not theirs. What's wrong with that?

Either way, you wear too much, you're judged, wear too little, you're judged. It's a no win situation.

Yeah but individuals are notoriously bad about calculating risk

I barely ever wear a helmet when I ride my bmx. Except sometimes when I'm down at the track.

The bike I fall off the most? Yeah, you're right, its my unicycle. But I fall off my bmx a lot as well, never hit my head.

Hit my head pretty hard coming off my mtb and road bike though, reckon helmet saved me there.

But if you don't want to wear it, I don't care. But I think you should wear it if you plan on riding with other people.

Intoxication through alcohol actually impairs your ability to calculate risk so that's a pretty poor analogy.

I meant those three things were unrelated. People used to not wear seatbelts and also leave kids unprotected without alcohol.

People used to not wear seatbelts and also leave kids unprotected without alcohol.

😯

always, always make sure kids wear condoms around alcohol!

[url= http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/repackrider/avatar235.jp g" target="_blank">http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/repackrider/avatar235.jp g"/> [/IMG][/url]
[url= http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htm ][b]2retro4u[/b][/url]
Marin County, Cali

If its good enough for charlie kelly.......

You wouldn't ride that POS bike now just because I did then. I wear a helmet now.

repack rider - the recent TV bit with the guy who was building his dream bike you didn't wear helmets?

[TJ, I agree with much of what you have to say about helmets, and having made an informed decision about the various risks and benefits as well as my lack of ability usually elect to put a lump of polystyrene on my bonce before I head out, but I don't judge anyone who choses not to.

A point you've not made here (as far as I can see) but have in the past is that safety equipment can make you feel safer encouraging to you to take higher risks. I know lots of people who would argue that with you - but this is a well known phenomenon in a number of areas. At its simplest level I can usually prove the principle by asking if you would cycle down the steps at the end of my street wearing a helmet (about a dozen concrete steps - fairly wide and reasonably steep) most people here would do them with minimal thought. Now take your helmet off and do the same... most people at least hesitate before saying they would do it. Proving to me the helmet made them feel safer (if you fall off you might get a head injury - but limb damage is probably more likely).

So, here's my gripe:

TandemJeremy - Member

Kids. Hmmmmmmmmmm Several points

Are they capable of making a rational assessment ( gillick competence)
Young kids skulls are softer, some kids skills are crap, some take lots of risks.

I think its recognised morally and legally that adults can and must make decisions for kids in some circumstances.

Just make sure that their helmets fit and are done up properly.

As an aside - how many of you helmet evangelists wear them properly - less than half even of serious mtbers IME Most have the straps loose

Bearing in mind the above principle - by putting helmets on kids are we encouraging children to ride more dangerously (or the average parent to pay less concern to their riding - because they have a helmet on)? We started off with the wear it all the time stance for our kids because that is what society seemed to expect, however this year we've taken the view, in common with many of the immediate neighbours, that when in a very localised (almost traffic free) area where our kids ride by themselves the risks are minimal, the kids put their helmets on themselves which means they are probably not tight enough, and then take them off / drop / damage too - which all leads to a false sense of security. In reality half the time they are travelling at less than running speed.

Whilst I am convinced I am making the right decision I feel "peer pressure" from "society" that we are exposing our kids to unreasonable risk. Bearing in mind that almost everyone on here over the age of thirty wouldn't have owned a cycle helmet before they were 12 the risks are not as high as may be implied. Yes there is a tiny risk of a serious head injury, but there's also a risk they'll grow up having no idea what fun is or so risk averse that they post threads on STW in 15 years time declaring everyone else stupid for not religiously doing as "society" expects...

--

The "building site" question is not as irrelevant as it first sounds. Its not uncommon for "hard hat zones" to be declared in areas where the risk of falling objects is minimal (or almost impossible). Whilst one school of thought says - just make them wear them all the time then they don't need to think about it - there is an alternative viewpoints which says encourage people to think about what they are doing and perhaps you'll reduce the risk of falling objects rather than depending on PPE.

Oh God, please let this end..........

Poly - All I said was in some situations parents can and should make decisions for children and IF you are going to insist on helmets make sure they are fitted and fastened properly.

People do have little idea of rational risk assessment tho

Wow, didn't realise there was such an anti-helmet brigade here!

I used to not wear my helmet years ago when doing trials stuff around town, probably down to vanity, which is probably the real reason for most anti-helmet arguments at the end of the day. Once spent 3 days being sick from concussion when I stopped, tried to put foot out, something got caught on drivetrain, fell over and head slapped into the ground. Wasn't even moving.

Another time I was going up a fairly routine climb in the granny ring and couldn't get foot out of toeclips (yes that long ago) when I lost traction, fell sideways, down a 10ft rockface the path edged onto and landed with helmet stuck between the rockface and a tree stump. Without my helmet I would have at least lost a lot of my scalp and I'm pretty sure would have shattered my skull on the rock at the bottom.

More recently I was in an accident with a 4x4 on the way to work and without the helmet I probably wouldnt be here, or at the very least would not have much scalp and would have had terrible bruising/cuts and concussion.

Just not worth not wearing one for me.

sorry but those in crashes who say "I'd be dead without the helmet" rarely have the knowledge etc to state that with any authority-and are of course less than objective.

I can say with authority I'd be dead sweaty and uncomfortable with one. 😉

and not quite so cool!

ah.. I see what you did there 8)

It's a free country.
Does it affect you, no.
So what's the problem.
😉

uh, unintended...

TandemJeremy - Member

Poly - All I said was in some situations parents can and should make decisions for children and IF you are going to insist on helmets make sure they are fitted and fastened properly.

bigjim - Member

Wow, didn't realise there was such an anti-helmet brigade here!

I've now worked trying to plan services and support for people with acquired brain injuries (ABI) for over 10 years. ABI can have many causes, perhaps 40%-50% (according to my stats) being the result of trauma (blow to the head).During this time, I've worked with 11 people whose ABIs came as a result of coming off a bike. Some were roadies/townies (a certain city's bus service seems particularly liable here) but others were MTB riders.

Now TJ (who, bless him, seems a particularly sophisticated helmet denier) might argue that these people might have had their ABIs anyway, or might have experienced different sorts of brain injuries (I take the diffuse axonal point to some extent, but I think the counter-arguement is that the helmet should reduce the severity of impact and thus the effect of reverberation of the brain inside the skull - I know that's what it felt like for me when I came off a bridge and headbutted an earthen bank!) I'm not convinced that we do more bonkers things just because we wear a lid. My 'sophisticated risk assessment' - ha! - is more concerned with my fingers, hands, elbows and knees, because experience tells me that these are what I have damaged when I've had offs.

But at the end of it all lies the question - why ever not wear a helmet? Vanity? Personal freedom? Spurious science? Most of us take the view that if there's a chance a hat will save us from some kind of TBI/ABI, then why not wear one? It's a small price to pay. And for those who take the personal liberty angle, sure, on your own head be it (literally), but be aware that in doing this, because you live in society rather than some individual void, you send a message to others that having a lid on is not really necessary........and (speaking personally) that is what really pisses me off.

And the beat goes on.........

[i]Wow, didn't realise there was such an anti-helmet brigade here! [/i]

There isn't.

What there is is a group of people (myself included) who suggest that sometimes you don't need to wear a helmet, and sometimes there are times when it's better to wear one.

OK?

dekadanse

I am not a helmet denier. I wear one when appropriate,

Why not wear one - its much more pleasant to ride without them. They are uncomfortable and sweaty

there are two arguments that folk get muddled up[
1) cycling is safe. the odds on getting a brain injury are very low indeed. How many of the people you have looked after got their brain injuries when drunk?
2) cycles helmets offer very little protection against serious brain injury and indeed may exacerbate serious brain injury

Both these things are well supported by research.
http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=4688

2)

but be aware that in doing this, because you live in society rather than some individual void, you send a message to others that having a lid on is not really necessary.....

Good - thats exactly the message we should be sending out

ffs why are some on here so bothered what others do or don't? I agree with TJ. The higher the risk, use more protection.

sorry but those in crashes who say "I'd be dead without the helmet" rarely have the knowledge etc to state that with any authority-and are of course less than objective.

well free to recreate my experiences but without a helmet and tell me how you feel afterwards, but I don't think you would be able to 😉

In my own experience the idea that you should wear a helmet only when doing 'extreme' things like downhilling and jumping doesn't stand, because its always been silly things like falling at 1mph that have resulted in me smashing my bonce. Apart from the car incident, I've never hit my head in 18 years of mountain biking from coming off any faster than 2mph :lol:, but I'm not going to interpret that as meaning I can safely ride without a helmet.

Horses for courses though, and I'm pretty sure that anyone that does have a crash resulting in head hitting something, will wear a helmet next time.

I've now worked trying to plan services and support for people with acquired brain injuries (ABI) for over 10 years. ABI can have many causes, perhaps 40%-50% (according to my stats) being the result of trauma (blow to the head).During this time, I've worked with 11 people whose ABIs came as a result of coming off a bike.

I don't give a toss what other people do, but I wear a helmet on the road. Two weeks when I crashed and wrecked my road bike, I ended up with a hole in my elbow, a gashed knee and a sore shoulder. I hit my head on something similar to this:
[img] [/img]

and my nut was fine. Without a helmet, at the very minimum, it would've bloody hurt.

headbuts wall with no helmet,,,,,, feels pain
headbuts wall with helmet on,,,,,, doesnt feel as much pain.

😕

rubberneck - Member

headbuts wall with no helmet,,,,,, feels pain
headbuts wall with helmet on,,,,,, doesnt feel as much pain.

Bingo. My sentiments exactly.

tandemjeremy

there is something missing from your picture! a helmet! or two!

As I get older I've mellowed to the fact that people choose not to wear a helmet, it means theres more chance of healthy vigorous organs available for transplant.

Jokes aside what annoys me is the number of people who choose to wear a helmet and then don't have a ****ing clue/have had crap advice/wear one as a jaunty fashion accessory. As an example the helmet that is that small that it's more than about an inch above the eyebrow, the straps that might as well not be done up etc..

Annoying to the point where you have that classic MBR side panel on a page that asks people a few questions like what will their next purchase be? Usual answer being the 10/10 Spesh costing thousands of quid rather than a HELMET THAT FITS YOU CORRECTLY...

headbuts wall with no helmet,,,,,, feels pain
headbuts wall with helmet on,,,,,, doesnt feel as much pain.

I have done some work with people with head injuries as well. I have seen a couple of serious cycle head injuries, a couple of moderate ones. I have seen far more that were caused by falling when drunk ,that were caused by accidents at home and that happened when in cars as well.

cycling is safe.

I've just headbutted a lamppost, so I'm glad I was wearing a helmet.
Still not sure how I managed to come off but sliding towards the lamp post just managed to turn my head in time to stop me going full frontal into it.

isn't it noticeable how its the habitual helmet wearers that hit their heads?

Helmets are dangerous kids - they make you crash and hit your head. Teh only time I have hit my head I was wearing a helmet

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.This has as much logic as many of the pro helmet stances on here

Or maybe it's 'cos they're here to tell the tale?? 😯

Some silly arguements trying to compare extremities to the head. Having an accident with limbs is painfull but (& that's a big but) it won't kill you. A bad head injury could. .... Might not, granted.

I personally use one but not often enough. I fell off my bike & had some knee pads I'm my rucksack. Turns out I'd fractured my knee, cursing my stupidity, I left in a wheel chair. Coming back from Cannock, great day out but stripped off the protection thinking 'no danger here, I'll leave my stuff off' which is exactly what caused my accident. My mistake cost me mobility, I won't be making the same mistake with my head.

I need to look after it, and my Ginger hair .... Lol