[Closed] new Shand Oykel - in carbon!

Ritte never had the kudos of Shand though. Didn't Ritte go for chinese open mould stuff from the start and tried to palm them off as something special? Super expensive with a fancy paint job.

I know they do some steel/alu stuff but think damage was done.

Why would anyone want a Chinese Trek Stache CF copy when it costs more than a whole Stache bike?

Plus the engineering in the Stache is brilliant, and far superior, as light etc??

Ritte never had the kudos of Shand though. Didn't Ritte go for chinese open mould stuff from the start and tried to palm them off as something special? Super expensive with a fancy paint job.

True it isn't apples to apples but it goes to show that even if you introduce yourself as a design company and are pretty open about using basic Chinese frames then it isn't a barrier to making a ton of money. I don't think they ever tried to palm them off as something special but people did buy in to the whole design and culture thing which seems to be huge on the roadie side at the moment (clothing is another huge example of this).

As far as Shand goes, there's no denying it's an odd move. Just wanted to point out there are plenty of mugs who'll pay for pretty paint 🙂

Because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure to mass produce carbon frames

Ben I will have to agree yet disagree with you here,one reason I know you can make a frame in this country in carbon is because its been done and 3 years ago we had a visit from some taiwanese people asking how do we make things cheaper, we saw their price for making stuff and what we could make it for (high end admittedly) then proved it out

Seems to be how lots of the big guys do it with a strong fan base and loyal customers. Not sure it'll work for Shand though. The passionate cycling community is quite small and those interested in a custom bike frame are even smaller

It never hurt vanilla workshop with speedvagen or RIITE I know several other builders who are trying this same approach not only to survive but to get a return back on the years they put in

now before someone jumps in and says f-you mike you failed at it we didn't really fail but you learn some very very hard lessons about business

Doing what I do now when I toned down the bike stuff I actually earned more money when I went for my first shit back in industry than the whole bicycle making excercise ever did, it did nothing but make a loss

Admittedly all the stuff is paid for now and it could be profitable now there's not money flying out the door for cleanrooms and CNC lathes but here's the skinny Its easier to make lotsa money machining and molding parts for race cars than a dropout or a product you are going to have some hypercritical nobber emailing backwards and forwards for a month.

Making stuff in a shed for the love and adoration of it is awesome , you do the frame building course get a bit of a following and the orders just miraculously come flooding in, if they don't hope doesn't float and it doesn't pay the mortgage

For every ten customers who are awesome there will be one customer who is a proffesional bellend and will literally suck up any profit in time alone from the previous 9 sales, if its a low margin business (which people think bikes isnt) you really are screwed.

Dont rely on anybody IN THE UK , do everything yourself , because if you have to rely on someone else even if all your ducks are in a row you will invariably be let down and then let others down, its a cumulative effect because the people who do make or do process what you ask are a bit thin on the ground and this can go right down to the raw material

when that 10k you just spent a month machining that wanted to turn into a 100k gets scrapped in transit when you only sent it 20 miles down the road you know its not worth working your arse off for nuthin.

The whole lets support british manufacture ethos leaves faster than england in a football tournament when peoples hands need to go in their pocket it seems , as you can see yes its a China frame it gets painted up in wherever, your supporting a brand you believe in , Shand the guy has an overhead that needs paying and employs staff, one of whom is arguably one of the best Tig welders in the Uk biz afaic, he also has a child and family like the rest of us , so maybe he didn't just pull a figure of 480 quid out of his arse in a hope that his business survives. Maybe he thinks this figure is what each day of my life is worth to do this job the reality if you don't think the guy is worth it then don't pay it but don't have a ****ing pop at a guy who's at least trying to push and grow his business .

its a tough gig ,if hes making a living and keeping people employed in a modern manufacturing era without calling it quits not going the easy route and getting a job in any industry that pays a shedload more than this does ,and still has a love for bicycles I will take my hat off to him

Just wanted to point out there are plenty of mugs who'll pay for pretty paint

Yeah, the thing is that some of the Chinese will offer you to paint it, ironically with more colour choices than Shand. People just want to buy into Shand. Like Apple, Audi or Santa Cruz, just that now they're buying an inferior product.

To be fair, he has finally sorted out the cables for once

To be fair, [s]he[/s] China has [s]finally[/s] sorted out the cables [s]for once[/s]

I've bitched a bit in this thread. I really like Shand and the whole process of dealing with him has been fantastic. I just think it's sad to see him take this route. I think he'd have plenty of scope in growing & increasing margins by commissioning a series of frames in China (as discussed before on this thread).

Of course it is a catalogue frame but why does that matter. If they had to cut their own moulds then it would be say £10k per mould per size. Probably £100k investment. We all know we can buy super cheap frames from China but many of us are concerned about the quality, safety, being ripped off and whether it will ride like a dog. This way Shand have covered all these bases + giving you warranty backup, better colours, no customs duties and delivery within a few day.

Yes it would be great if they had their own design but this isn't really economically possible. Also remember that most steel frames are just made up of catalogue tubes where all the dimensions and spec is predefined by Reynolds, etc. All the frame builder is doing is sticking the tubes together. I know it is a bit more than that and there are more variables but there also are with getting carbon frames made.

I think there is a massive differences between an On One catalogue frame and a Shand.

I think there is a massive differences between an On One catalogue frame and a Shand.

I think there is a massive differences between an On One catalogue frame and a Shand.

Yeah the cost!!

I don't understand this move at all, it looks a mess of a bike trying to be all things to all men, but will probably do nothing well.

They forgot to remove this from the Bahookie pages:

As with all of our bikes, the frame is manufactured by us in our workshop in Central Scotland

They forgot to remove this from the Bahookie pages:

As with all of our bikes, the frame is manufactured by us in our workshop in Central Scotland

To be fair it looks as if they paint it in scotland. May be they could offer the painting service for, say, £250 and people can source their own frame from aliexpress and everyones a winner.

I was referring to the "all of our bikes" statement, the "Ordering" section was correctly updated to (emphasis mine):

All our [b]steel[/b] bikes are fabricated and built to order in our workshop in Central Scotland

Well said Mick McD - took some guts to lay all that out. You hit exactly the reasons why I'll only ever make frames as a hobby and never for paying customers.

Good luck to Shand with whatever they do to grow the brand / range of bikes on offer. Making a steel version of that design would take an awful lot of development time to get durable enough for mass consumption (speaking from experience - I rode to work today on a home made steel E-stay 29er)

Why is this £250 being banded about for paint?
Fat Creations can paint you something beautiful for that with different layers, colours & patterns. A block colour is around £120 by Argos & others for a consumer. It'll be less than that for Shand. He's got economics of scale.

There is excellent composite manufacturing capability in the UK, only it's consumed making parts for F1 cars, aerospace and the 3000 back-ends of $159m fighter jets. Ironically, it was western companies that offshored work to Taiwan and China to save money and it's pointless trying to compete against what is often semi-skilled work (once you've worked out how to do it). I don't buy the notion that one brand's open mould frame is better than another - it's against the principles of efficient manufacturing to reduce scale and increase inventory when you can buy off the shelf and paint as you need them.

or a product you are going to have some hypercritical nobber emailing backwards and forwards for a month

😀

My record is 12 years to sell a bike. Then he never rode it.

When you manufacture something in the bike industry, it seems to me that you can get a lot of free marketing, fans, word of mouth, loyalty, etc. But in return you also get people thinking that they have some kind of a stake in your business and the ability to take offence at every decision.
Very odd.

Had a look around at the sites of some of the various well known British bike builders.

Cotic: British designed, built in Taiwan
Stooge: British designed, built in Taiwan
Travers: British designed, built in Britain
Shand: British designed, built in Britain (at least for steel)

Also I think the lower end Orange bikes are Taiwanese with just frames like the Five and Patriot being made in the UK.

Don't that's the point Whitestone, here Shand are re-branding an existing frame designed and made in the far east with no Shand input design or otherwise

how do you know that?

It shouldn't, but its actually putting me off buying the Stoater I've had my eye on.

Why would it do that, surely you like the Stoater for what it is?

Have you the thread pictonroad? I was looking at those frames about a year ago on ebay.

Cotic: British designed, built in Taiwan
Stooge: British designed, built in Taiwan
Travers: British designed, built in Britain
Shand: British designed, built in Britain (at least for steel)

Completely different business models. Stooge, Cotic, Travers, On-one, Bird, Airdrop, Whyte & others make a big deal about 'British Designed', not 'Built in Britain'. Orange produce all hardtails in Asia and all FS frames in the UK. They ALL have input into the geometry, cable routing and material specification.

Shand opened a catalogue, pointed at something random and said 'I want that one'. No designing or manufacturing input, so nothing at all like the others you pointed out. Nothing innovative.

Other than owning a Cotic Solaris I've no connection with any of the manufacturers so I see myself as pretty neutral on this.

Is it a previously available frame or one that has been tweaked or one that is genuinely new (even if based on a similar design)?

Interesting that the HT length is measured as 2mm longer on the Shand which throws the reach/ stack/ TT measurements out by a mm or two compared to the Workswell despite all other fixed points of the frame being identical (st, cs, bb drop, hta, sta, offset, trail, etc).

Innocent measurements with a slightly different headset perhaps or deliberately fractionally different so people compare the two and say no way is that a Chinese off the peg thing 🙂 The plot thickens 😉 *

* Joking of course

Interesting that the HT length is measured as 2mm longer on the Shand which throws the reach/ stack/ TT measurements out by a mm or two compared to the Workswell despite all other fixed points of the frame being identical (st, cs, bb drop, hta, sta, offset, trail, etc).

Innocent measurements with a slightly different headset perhaps or deliberately fractionally different so people compare the two and say no way is that a Chinese off the peg thing The plot thickens *

* Joking of course

I saw that, I presume it's a different headset or something (headtube is 2mm longer too)?

I quite like that, and for UK backup and decent paint job I think the price is fair.
It doesn't quite fit the Shand image though. (I would like to see one built in steel though....)

FWIW I have the 29er non chubby version of the Sobato frame there. Nice it is too.

I quite like that, and for UK backup and decent paint job I think the price is fair.

Assuming the assumptions are fair to assume then you are paying £400-500 for the privilege of the logo and Shand keeping some stock for speedy warranty work. Cost all in of the Workswell type frame and fork (for one unit bear in mind too) is ~$500 with shipping included and then you have to add the usual taxes on top (was £30 for me IIRC). Most of these Chinese *outlets* also do custom paint for next to nothing so that adds very little cost... not awful and not the only company to do it but just a bit odd that's all

TBH I don't really see why someone wanting to offer a carbon frame and forks wouldn't use an open mould. If it's been tested and is offered with a warranty and a nice paintjob I'd far rather pay a bit more than risking it and going direct.

Why invest £££s in a different mould that will look a bit different but, in reality, function the same?

I'm not keen on being limited to 1x drivetrains though, so I'm out.

I quite like the look/versatility of it, just wondered where you can get it sprayed by the "Chinese outlets" as there's nothing that I can find, any links would be great.

just wondered where you can get it sprayed by the "Chinese outlets" as there's nothing that I can find, any links would be great

Dickish answer, but almost all of them. You may not find it on aliexpress or ebay as that is ready to roll stuff, but if you contact the outlets and say I want this frame, these forks, this BB, these dropouts and it has to be red (more fasterer of course) then they'll give you a price (to haggle on 🙂 ). My buying experience was contact several reputable outlets (see the ginormous MTBR thread) and let them compete against each other for the best offer, check geo, check actual availability, etc.

I quite like the look/versatility of it, just wondered where you can get it sprayed by the "Chinese outlets" as there's nothing that I can find, any links would be great.

[url= http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Chinese-OEM-full-carbon-fat-bike-frame-650b-fat-mountain-bike-carbon-fiber-bicycle-frames/921274_32472396025.html ]HERE [/url] you go

Q:How to have our own paint design?
A:You can put your own logo on the frames and paint whatever color you like.

Q:How to have our own product design?
A:Tell us what your idear, Our product design team will help you realize your ideas.

It's possible that these frame are painted and have decals applied before they reach Shand. He can just hold X stock on each colour.

Folk have been buying bike lights made in the FE but "supported" by a UK seller for years. I see little difference. Yes, it's a slight change of strategy for Shand, but if it's profitable then maybe it'll keep him in business selling nice steel frames at a reasonable price.

As for Shand having "economies of scale" when it comes to painting, that shoes a fundamental misunderstanding of the scale of the Shand business

It's possible that these frame are painted and have decals applied before they reach Shand. He can just hold X stock on each colour.

I saw that, I presume it's a different headset or something (headtube is 2mm longer too)?

That's just the crap tolerances - see the recent Evil thread 😉

As for Shand having "economies of scale" when it comes to painting, that shoes a fundamental misunderstanding of the scale of the Shand business

Yep - 28 colours and 4 sizes. It's a good job he's selling thousands of these. I'm beginning to think that you haven't even read the webpage.

Opened it, saw generic China carbon, checked geo- was massively disappointed, closed page, returned to thread and began my campaign of 'in the good old days'. Glad to hear they are painted in the UK..

I must say that I really like it - with rigid forks and 650+ that could be my bumbling around bike especially if it had a front mech mount for next years electronic XT.
Although I would just buy it from China direct.

Shand arnt really on my radar although I do like their stuff but its always a shame when a 'core/boutique brand devalues itself, eg BrooklynMachineWorks turning its back on DH stuff and making fixie frames, then Production Privee out of nowhere makes cool hardtails with a great introductory video racing a church clock and spoil it all a year later by making kids bikes. I'm oot.

I don't get that theory. If a brand makes something you really like, then what does it matter if they also make something you don't like? Unless you're buying for the kudos of having a niche brand, what does it matter?

Unless you're buying for the kudos of having a niche brand, what does it matter?

It's interesting that they said they didn't want to make a 29er smaller than a M...

Wow, 3 pages of comments about a bike that no-one wants to buy! :wink:.

I saw this thread yesterday and resisted chiming in as I thought it might be better if it just quickly died a death!

Seriously though, there's a lot of interesting stuff here, some useful and insightful and some just plain wrong and ignorant. The key thing for me (personally) when reading a thread like this is to remember it doesn't really matter. Sure, there's some gobby shitebags that like to have their voice heard, so they shout louder, but those people are never going to be our customers, I kind of think of them as the same people in the audience at Top Gear, moaning about how crap the new Porsche 911 is and how they were just about to buy one but how now they'll just buy a Clio instead.

We think about things very carefully at Shand, we don't dive into things lightly and when we can't tell the whole story, sometimes things can look a little odd. I accept that this may be one of those occasions.

Importing a product directly from an overseas manufacturer and 'adding value' before selling on to the consumer is not a new business model, and I'll bet every single person on this thread has purchased something in this way. The bicycle consumer is pretty unique (I believe) as there's a small number of real geeks who not only want to know about the complete supply chain, but also want to shout and tell everyone else. I've not really come across them in other sectors, maybe they do exist, I don't know. Perhaps I just don't visit choppingboardtrackworld or pictureframes.net often enough. The thing is, you get to take your choice, you get to decide if buying something direct from the factory with the added risks is something you're happy doing. For some, they'll decide that they'll go that way. Good on them. For others, they'll do the sums, work out how much the extended warranty, custom paint finish, faster delivery, local pre-sales and after-sales care, fitting of headsets and BB etc, availability of spares etc is worth to them, and they'll make a decision. But, and here's the rub, I would bet that almost all of our customers who buy this bike will never have even thought about Alibaba or AliExpress or (shock horror) even know about STW. As is evidenced by just about every thread on this forum that mentions us, STW forum regulars are just not our type of customer (that sounded wrong, I meant that we're not their type of bike company). Also, we'll sell full bikes to riders who can't or don't want to build a bike themselves. That can be a deal breaker to some.

I am slightly surprised and perhaps a little worried about the comments regarding devaluing the brand. I don't really understand that. We still design, manufacture, paint and assemble the vast majority of our bikes in house. At the moment, that one carbon bike is the only thing we don't make. I hadn't considered how adding this bike would somehow lessen or cancel out all the other stuff we do. Someone commented that they were reconsidering buying a UK built Stoater from us in light of this new bike. That comment bothered me and I brought it up at work earlier. I think it was just a stupid, ill-informed comment to make but it bothered me more than I expected it to.

UK manufactured carbon frames (as Mike already commented) can be made here. It's something that we are working on right now. But it takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And when we do it, I guarantee, there'll be a thread on here about how expensive they are compared to Asian imported frames and why don't we just import something from China, paint it and sell it for a third of the price!

A last point as this is getting very long. I am passionate about manufacturing here in the UK. That's one of the biggest reasons I do what I do, I want to make stuff and I want to employ people who want to make stuff. The truth is, it's really hard. Like really, really hard. I want to build a better company for everyone involved at Shand and if that means looking elsewhere for revenue streams to help keep the workshop lights on so we can carry on making stuff, then I'll explore every avenue possible.

There's a lot more to this direction we're heading in than this one bike. It'll take time to come to fruition and hopefully it might bring some of the doubters round. Perhaps it'll all make sense at some point.

I'm unlikely to comment again on this thread (I really would like it to die!) but if people who were thinking about a Shand but are now unsure for whatever reason, please contact me directly and I'll be happy to talk through things on the phone or email.

Seriously though, there's a lot of interesting stuff here, some useful and insightful and some just plain wrong and ignorant.

I believe that's the forum's tagline.

I bet you've been typing that out since yesterday!

That carbon bike isn't for me, but it wouldn't stop me buying a bahookie, as long as you can still put capital letter decals on it instead the lower case ones 🙂