[Closed] new low in the LBS today

I cant believe people would go into a bike shop and do what the OP described,but then I,m amazed some people are moaning on here about the decathlon thing(some tounge in cheek of course).The something for nothing generation is taking over,and it wont get any better,lets just put them all on an island and they can rob and hoodwink each for eternity.

Bike shop owner/employee having to work for a living and not getting a sale shocker

Not every enquiry results in a sale. Try working in any other business in the land and you'll see my point.

What is it- as soon as you walk through the door you are bound to purchase. Is this pressured sales? I know alot of bike shop employees are sales-targetted. Doesn't make 'LBS' sound so cosy...

binners- I remember you telling me that years ago too. Plus those that rollover their company and want to business you again!

I think they expect that people don't use them as an advisory service then take their business elsewhere. My feeling is that if I'm going to ask for help from an LBS, I should bung them a few quid either via the thing I'm asking advice about or something else.

Agree but unless you said 'can you help me on this please' I don't see how you've entered any sort of moral contract. Its in the bikeshops interest to make the item competitively priced.

I've never been into a shop with the intent to try on/buy elsewhere. Evans would be the one ripe for this but they price match.

Why? Why are cyclists that lazy to learn?

No. Plenty of my riding mates use the local (very good) shop as they get a cup of tea and a chat. Often they aren't interested in maintaining their bike - or don't have the time due to family commitments - and usually they are fortunate enough to be in a position to afford it (let's face it - MTBing isn't as cheap as it once was).

Bike shop owner/employee having to work for a living and not getting a sale shocker, what is it you expect some given right that everyone through your door abandons their freedom of thought

You are a troll and I claim my £5.

In a similar vein ... the amount of times, as a deigner, I've spent a lot of time and effort working up concepts for designs, presented them to a potential client, only to be told they've decided not to take the project any further.

Then a couple of months later, you open a magazine to see pretty much exactly what you came up with, that they've clearly got someone else to knock up on the cheap, basically just ripping off all your ideas.

Yeap. A certain surfing charity use a graphic very similar to one I submitted to them. But as it's them and I admire the charity I can't get too would up over it.

OP - I used to work in a high-end road shop. The number of riders that would buy Campag from Ribble (who sold it retail at trade prices because they were an importer, so buying it at cost) and then ask us to fix it was pretty high. We had a special Ribble-rate. 🙂

It's been going on for a long time, but the web has magnified it.

Been shopping recently for a new road bike, and the difference in price and spec between the on line sellers (planet X and Ribble specifically) and damn near every LBS is astonishing.

Ribble tend to buy abroad and avoid the main UK distributor (very naughty in the case of something like Shimano, where Madison is the official sole distributor), and their frames are not great quality.

I worked on a couple of 'brand new' Ribbles as a mechanic, generally bought in because the owner 'felt' something was wrong; off the top of my head, the first had a bent rear triangle and the second had a bent dropout, and the specified tubing only actually constituted one frame in the tube (it was the Reynolds octagonal butted tubing, so quite easy to spot) - not technically illegal, but certainly misleading. The wheels were generally incredibly hit-and-miss too in their build quality too.

The shop I worked in had a good reputation and we did thorough post-delievery-inspections on all bikes, including tensioning wheels. There's little chance of one of our bikes (certainly a 'high end' bike, like a Ribble) leaving in the condition they were bought to us in.

Personally I wouldn't touch a Ribble with yours.

Well I visited both PlanetX and Ribble pre-purchase. The two were far apart in the showroom for service and I just thought Ribbles bikes looked 'cheap'. Glad with what I've gone for. It also rides very similar to a Giant carbon Defy (but without the insulting spec).

I can't comment on Planet X, but I would imagine elements of their operation are similar - mainly because Madison took them to court recently.

However, the Planet X stuff does appear to be better designed with plenty of input from sponsored riders and the like - of the two options, it's where I'd prefer to buy.

You are a troll and I claim my £5.

You will need the 5 quid to spend in a shop that hasn't realized that the marketplace is competitive

Ribble tend to buy abroad and avoid the main UK distributor (very naughty in the case of something like Shimano, where Madison is the official sole distributor), and their frames are not great quality.

Err think you'll find this is perfectly legal according to the EU despite distrubutors throwing their toys out the pram

Mountain biking doesn't need to be expensive. I wont be buying a 2.7k carbon frame ever. Some will- saves them 600gm's and makes their purchase feel special- good for them.

I've bought my new mtn bike frame last week- £440, any replacement kit was bought by seeing who is selling what/where. The internet enabled this. If I need pre-purchase advise I ask the company or post on a forum. The web enabled this.

I don't need biscuits and cups of tea. Arnold Clark car sales also employs the same tactic. Its a retailer. It sells goods for profit not for friendship.

Err think you'll find this is perfectly legal according to the EU despite distrubutors throwing their toys out the pram

Depends where they get it from.

In the case of Shimano I believe it comes from the Netherlands office as opposed to Japan - often as OE - but then sold retail. It may be legal, but that legality is often quite murky.

The final customer can also lose out if there's a problem because no-one in the 'official' channels will normally want to know.

You will need the 5 quid to spend in a shop that hasn't realized that the marketplace is competitive

Most have. Some are slower to catch up, others don't care.

The problem the OP is getting at is that he's providing a service that ultimately probably won't see a return. The flipside is that when numpty customer wants to build a new bike again, his LBS won't be there to provide advice or rectify faults in his build because it's gone bust. You could argue that this is how competition currently works (which it is) but it's also a very short-sighted model, in which the customer will ultimately suffer.

I don't need biscuits and cups of tea.

You're a hard customer, Hora. 😉

A hard customer? Given his track record of subsequent spurious and questionable warrenty claims for stuff that 'doesn't work', he's any business owners worst nightmare.

I'm sure there must be some kind of 'more trouble than they're worth' industry blacklist, with his name right at the top, underlined and highlighted!

[img] [/img]

...he's any business owners worst nightmare.

Probably best he doesn't deal with his LBS then. 😉

Given the amount of frames he shifts, I'd imagine it's a bit of a catch 22 for them. He buys stuff but is a bit "difficult" whilst he does it

I dont buy new frames and I tend to keep them a year 😉

Ironically I recently bought a new road bike. Its my first NEW bike in almost three decades. I imagine most STW'ers change whole bikes yearly at their LBS 😀

Hora I'm quoting you here;

"When people take the piss though - using the shop as a free resource, that is very wrong.

Interesting story- I popped into a bike shop (no where near home), browsed (as everyone does- and I imagine how most sales happen). Staff came over and asked if I was ok (I was trying on a knee pad). He talked for a few minutes and then left me alone. I couldn't get my head round the £50 price so I left it. I later popped on here and had a moan about the price/why so much/are they worth the money?

Next time I dropped into that shop the owner pulled me aside as he'd seen my post on STW and said his staff aren't free/dont waste their time with try on/shop elsewhere stuff.

For me, you pop into a shop post-ride and usually walk out with something bought that you didnt intend to. If I was specifically looking for a brand/pad why would I aim for a small shop for this purpose on the wild off-chance that they'd hold that stock? Hence my intent was browse not malicious using a shop."

Funny how people's memories differ. I was the shop assistant who spent over an hour going through various knee pads with you, giving you valuable feedback on the different models. Obviously enough information you to make a firm decision on which one to buy as your later post on here was about where to buy that model cheapest!

I'd call that taking the piss! Your words in fact up there ^^^^^^^

For the record this wasn't the only time you wasted my time and bought on the web. Previous subjects had been tyres, frames and forks.

This is the problem all shops face these days. We all want super service and cheap ass prices. Can't have both, if you want the advice then be prepared to pay for it. A shop has lots of overheads and staff need training. If you don't get the service you require go elsewhere. If you do get looked after then pay the premium. If you're not prepared to pay the premium don't ask the millions of questions, it's just bad manners really.

PMJ, so essentially what you've said is

"Some bikes are built better than others" this is true of Ribble...and pretty much every one else, I've seen any number of Friday afternoon builds in my time. It's certainly not the case that every shop build is perfect and every Internet build isn't TBH this is true of any commercial operation, and for every shop mechanic horror story there's an equally terrifying customer "look what these numpties did to my bike" story

The point of my post was to say that it's a tough market ( mail order has always been an option) and the Internet makes it harder still.

For the record this wasn't the only time you wasted my time and bought on the web. Previous subjects had been tyres, frames and forks.

kapow.

ding ding....

I love it when the other side of a story comes out!

If I were the OP I'd probably say something along the lines of why do you need a detailed list if you're considering ordering from us? I can give you a summary quote based on the requirements we've discussed, and should you wish to order those details are saved on our computer against the quote number, at which time we'll provide you with detailed confirmation of the parts and services you've ordered.

spent over an hour going through various knee pads with you

For the size of shop, be real how many knee pads do/did you hold? Three types max?

I'd put it at 10mins max. I don't think I've ever spent more than 10mins in a bikeshop in my life. Nice try though 😉

Err no. I already owned Roach pads. Just couldn't justify spending an extra 50 for what benefit.

so you admit you went in to waste time then? Were you expecting 10-quid pads?

Read above- I went in for a post-ride browse. As also said, I never intend but often walk out with stuff I didnt need/intend to buy. Saw the pads and thought 'they look nice' - then the salesman comes over.

I imagine thats how the vast majority of others buy kit outside of the internet too.

The point of my post was to say that it's a tough market ( mail order has always been an option) and the Internet makes it harder still.

And I agree 100%.

I admit to having a particular bee in my bonnet about Ribble, primarily from my own experience working on their faulty goods, but also from the way they undercut the market 'back in the day'.

It's no different now (and probably worse with China only a few clicks away) but it also smacked because riders were paying good money for sub-standard equipment being sold as top quality.

You may argue it's the rider's fault (you get what you pay for, etc. etc.) but it still offends my sense of morality, and highlights one of the problems with distance selling.

Going the other way I suppose we should have thanked Ribble for sending all the extra servicing work our way... 😉

Read above- I went in for a post-ride browse.

With partner and child in the car? Why did you bother?

Personally I'd be heading home for a shower and a brew.

Think the attitude of some on here is that in a LBD scenario customers are an inconvenience. If you think a customer is in to try before buying on the web then that's your opportunity to offer him something extra that they won't get on the web.

The Hora baiting above would make me think your shop isn't the kind of place I'd be spending my money.

Best thing in any retail business is to banish the phrase "time waster" if you get that out of your head then you'll probably have less of them

I buy most of my stuff online on the basis that I don't have time to go to bike shops, especially as I don't really have any good ones local to me. However, I also do all my own work on my bike and have bought things like a headset press, crown race installer over the years.

However, what happened in the original OP is taking the mick big time I think. Bike Shops are their worst enemies though with some of the people that they emply who seem to specialise in putting people's backs up.

The Hora baiting

*puts down sandwich*

It definitely cuts both ways.

There are good LBSs and bad ones.

One near me (Julie's Cycles in Leicester), gets a groan from anyone I speak to who has dealt with them. They prey on newbies, sell them bikes and kit that are the wrong size and pass it off as 'most people find that a smaller/large (delete according to which item they need to shift) size than actually recommended is best'.

I went on a group ride around Calderdale a few years ago and there was a bloke from Lancashire there. He had used Julie's for an online deal that he really shopped around for - they then proceeded to mess him about something rotten - they had probably over-offered a discount and were desperately trying to recoup it somehow.

Now this reputation seems to be spreading far and wide, but they are still in business - they must have a hard core of roadie regulars who they treat well, because anyone I talk to who has used them just shakes their head or gets quite cross.

In many shops there is a definite 'clubbiness' so that if you are a new customer or infrequent, you are basically ignored by staff talking to regulars, or even abandoned mid-transaction when one of 'the gang' walk in.

In others, they are open, helpful and welcoming.

I would never dream of taking the piss in the way that the OP said, but I am also not prepared to be messed about. One bad experience could be an accident, two bad experiences means that the shop is on a yellow card. Three and they are permanently blackballed.

You might argue that I am not worth retaining as a customer with this 'attitude', but I think this is quite reasonable - and I suspect most other people would too.

In many shops there is a definite 'clubbiness' so that if you are a new customer or infrequent, you are basically ignored by staff talking to regulars, or even abandoned mid-transaction when one of 'the gang' walk in.

Really? That is bonkers.

Geoffrey Butler Cycles in Croydon- thats one shop I'd go back to. Everytime I went in I thought they were quoting/charging me too cheap. Said as such and was told 'you mountain bikers pay too much'.

Really? That is bonkers.

Yes, really.

I have been left standing at the till with the part the staff had got for me, just about to pay when one of 'the gang' walks in. The bloke behind the counter mumbled something like, "ooh, can you just hang on a minute whilst I sort this out for Alan?" (can't remember the other guy's name).

Stupidly (and not wanting to appear pushy) I agreed. The bloke then disappeared into the workshop for a good five minutes, appeared with the part for 'Alan' who then left. Then he said "and how can I help you?"

Since then I have tried to use that shop as little as possible.

I also remember an incident in a jewellers a few years back. I think it might have been when my wife and I were shopping for an engagement ring or an eternity ring - a high ticket purchase (although there aren't many low ticket purchases in jewellers I grant you). Anyway, the smarmy shop assistant basically ignored us in preference to a procession of posers who she thought were more likely to spend money.

In the end I went to get the store manager, asked him to stand next to the shop assistant and announced that I was going to spend several thousands of pounds (I might have got a bit carried away at this point) in his shop, but that the attitude of said sales assistant had meant that I was going to buy from elsewhere, no matter what.

A small blow struck back (they probably didn't believe me anyway, but the look on the assistant's face was worth it).

Geoffrey Butler are an interesting one.

They've been around a long time and (my understanding is) used to specialise in selling older stock and knock-down prices. They also carried a lot of stock, which hints at storage elsewhere.

I've not been there for something like 20 years, but given the above if it were my business I'd look to maximise that storage by buying end-of-line products in bulk, and negotiate a better discount with the distributor because you're taking a load of older stock off their hands (similar to one of CRC's models). You can then pass that saving onto the consumer. Bloody brilliant for the customer if they don't mind end-of-line products, or last year's colours.

This does create a problem for smaller retailers though, who pay bigger prices for the same product. [i]However[/i], I would argue that this isn't a model a smaller retailer should be looking to compete with.

The OP's story is blatantly taking the piss.

However, you do have to wonder what the strengths of a LBS are. That is a genuine question. What can a LBS do better than any other bike retailer and then really focus on doing outstandingly well?

Customer service and advice are one thing but often not enough to bridge the gap to the massive increase in prices for parts. Especially since there is a wealth of information and advice available online too.

I'll happily buy lower value parts from the LBS and not worry about the extra few quid as they are good fun to chat to and do a pretty decent job in the workshop when I don't have the required tools. However, on higher value parts there no way the LBS can match the online retailers and that is just a fact of the cycling market.

I'd love to support the LBS but not at the expense of a few hundred quid, regardless of how friendly they are and how nice the shop is. One LBS where I used to live offered a pretty hefty discount on everything across the shop for club members and had a really active online forum with group rides every day of the week. That seems like a decent way to go but wouldn't attract the more casual rider and could look a bit cliquey.

Hats off to the guys and girls trying to run a decent business but man it must be tough!

However, you do have to wonder what the strengths of a LBS are. That is a genuine question. What can a LBS do better than any other bike retailer and then really focus on doing outstandingly well?

As luck would have it: http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tuesday-treats-93-rule-5-bikes/

"[b]How do you compete against the big onliners?[/b]

In short, being nice – we know the online shops can kill it on price points but they can’t give you the after sales care that an independent can."

In short, being nice – we know the online shops can kill it on price points but they can’t give you the after sales care that an independent can

Is it really enough though? What after sales care can a LBS offer that CRC can't. It is easier for me to return something to CRC than to the LBS, the LBS have taken longer to sort warranty stuff (I guess the big retailers just give you a new one and can afford to sort out the costs later), etc, etc.

I can see the LBS being part of the local cycling community and having the benefits for both sides as a result of this being a massive plus. It still doesn't really bridge the massive price differences unless the customer is either fiercely loyal to the LBS or made of money. I just can't think what the LBS can say or offer a prospective buyer of a medium to high value item to justify paying significantly more for.

The OPs story is a joke to be honest. I'd have told him where to go, especially on a busy day. Either that or charge for the advice that was offered! I can understand coming down and asking for some stuff to be written down as I may have done the same if I was buying a new build and had no idea what I was asking for. I wouldnt insist on exact specs tho, just enough to check out reviews for the parts online to make sure I was completely happy with the spec.

As for other LBS stories, im no expert but would it not be a good idea to offer discounted repairs and service on any bike bought through the LBS? Perhaps increase all workshop services by 5% and offer a 10% workshop discount on all bikes bought through the LBS. Effectively giving everyone who has bought a bike through them a 5% workshop discount on current workshop prices. LBS have a massive advantage in being able to offer workshop services to people so you may as well play on it. If possible I would also try and offer a discount on replacement parts when the bike is being serviced. This also gives an advantage against workshop only competitors and generally increases loyalty and repeat business.

mikey3 - I,m amazed some people are moaning on here about the decathlon thing(some tounge in cheek of course).The something for nothing generation is taking over,and it wont get any better,lets just put them all on an island and they can rob and hoodwink each for eternity.

I looked at that with disgust, there are some Facebook friends who were posting about it, that I'm seriously considering unfriending as it was the online equivalent of looting in the riots, multiple orders, etc.

I'm glad decathlon are taking the flak and have said up yours to thos that tried to exploit it.

What decathlon thing?

As for other LBS stories, im no expert but would it not be a good idea to offer discounted repairs and service on any bike bought through the LBS? Perhaps increase all workshop services by 5% and offer a 10% workshop discount on all bikes bought through the LBS. Effectively giving everyone who has bought a bike through them a 5% workshop discount on current workshop prices. LBS have a massive advantage in being able to offer workshop services to people so you may as well play on it. If possible I would also try and offer a discount on replacement parts when the bike is being serviced. This also gives an advantage against workshop only competitors and generally increases loyalty and repeat business.

Is the complaint not then that people aren't prepared to work for free wages to pay buisness to run etc etc

Bluntly if you can't compete your going to lose anyway to the big fish that's the monopoly they might eventually get if largely based on price.

In fact I might wonder if some of the bigger companies with supposed poor service as advertised on here can actually afford to stick two fingers to the customers who do actually take up more time than they are worth ,sales and profit for time spent and all that

It is easier for me to return something to CRC than to the LBS...

Really?

...the LBS have taken longer to sort warranty stuff (I guess the big retailers just give you a new one and can afford to sort out the costs later)...

Unfortunately I think that's normally true.

It still doesn't really bridge the massive price differences unless the customer is either fiercely loyal to the LBS or made of money. I just can't think what the LBS can say or offer a prospective buyer of a medium to high value item to justify paying significantly more for.

An LBS will make most of its bread and butter on cheap tyres and inner tubes as the mark-up on a frame or bike is also significantly less (as a percentage) than the mark-up on a gear cable or inner tube. A one-off large spend is more difficult to justify for a small shop, especially when the customer may not take it, which leaves a unique and expensive item sitting in the shop devaluing. This could explain why a lot of shops can't match CRC when quoting on a £2k frame.

Unless the shop has organised some demo rides so the customer is confident of what they're getting, there is a financial argument that sometimes it works for both parties if the frame is bought outside if the shop then gets the labour of building it up.

However, this doesn't negate the usefulness of an LBS, or mean that people should take the urine in one.

Ultimately though, to survive a LBS has got to offer something that makes people [i]want[/i] to go there and spend money.

Well what would you visit a LBS for anyway?.....for me the only things, Bike-fit (by someone who knows what they are doing which is quite rare), servicing - when I don't have the time or the tools, or maybe wheel building.

GRUM - http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-40-off-decathlon