[Closed] New Heckler. You'll never guess what's happened to the wheels.

Looks nice in black.

Prefer the black to the kona/halfords type blue

How can you tell without it written in massive letters on the tyres and/or rims? 😀

wukfit - Member
How can you tell without it written in massive letters on the tyres and/or rims?

That's the joy of 650b - you can just tell people you've made the switch without doing anything, it's almost impossible to tell.

In fact......hang on......yep....I've just gone 650b

Actuallyt, that looks like it;'s 650B front and 26" rear. I think I just invented a new niche 🙂

eww at that blue with hints of yellowy green.
that's SC scratched off my list.

26 is finished.

I thought the rear wheel had a reflector on it.

Really like that. Lazy question as on the way to work, how does the geo compare to the orange 5?

I notice the Blur LT is no longer on the US Santa Cruz website.

Putting all their eggs in the 650b basket.

Putting all their eggs in the 650b basket.

I guess they can afford too. They have no mass produced low end 26er bikes for the masses and the availability of components for 650b is becoming more widespread it kind of makes sense.

Still, a brave move by SC. I'm still unsure why it's become such a 'buzz' movement and with the Heckler moving this way I can't help but feel a little part of me has died.

SC product photographers are very good, aren't they?

Glad I got mine now then!!! Heckler with a Deore Triple crank??? Eeuuchh!

DT78 - hecklers have a short top tube, so people who normally ride a M get a L.

5 has a HA of 67 deg, heckler quotes 67.5, but that is with a 140 fork, and it takes up to a 160. Mine has 160 Marz55's and offset bushings which pushes it to 66 deg, and also lowers the bb.

I guess they can afford too. They have no mass produced low end 26er bikes for the masses and the availability of components for 650b is becoming more widespread it kind of makes sense.

Still, a brave move by SC. I'm still unsure why it's become such a 'buzz' movement and with the Heckler moving this way I can't help but feel a little part of me has died.

Right now, it's not a brave move, they are currently leading the charge & everyone else at that end of the market has been caught with their pants down.

I have a friend who runs a high end shop that does SC as well as other comparable high end brands, the amount of enquiries and sales of Bronson's is staggering. What's also interesting is almost overnight 26" enquiries and sales have almost come to a complete standstill on the high end stuff.

butterbean - Member

I have a friend who runs a high end shop that does SC as well as other comparable high end brands, the amount of enquiries and sales of Bronson's is staggering.

What's most staggering- according to Santa Cruz anyway- is that it's entirely driven by people who've never ridden a 650B bike but have decided they want it based entirely on fluff. We get the bike industry we deserve apparently.

Nice to see the Heckler refuses to die, they've tried to neglect it to death and replace it and it just keeeeps going.

The Heckler is SC's Orange Five.

Now here's an idea - buy a 650b bike, put a longer travel 26' fork on it, with 26' wheels. Get extra clearance on big tyres and a lower bb! Winner, or instant death?

The black one looks pretty good - not surprised at the wheel size change either because as other have said SC are really geting behind the 650b thing.

Part of me wouldn't be surprised that it is being driven by customers (at least in the States). You only have to look at some of the american forums like MTBR / Pink Bike to see that the Amercians seem to be going mad for it. They really do think that it is the future. I guess they are much more into looking for the next big thing.

For now I'm sticking with my 26inch wheels but my new frame is 'future proofed' because I can swap the drop outs to take a 650b wheel.

What's most staggering- according to Santa Cruz anyway- is that it's entirely driven by people who've never ridden a 650B bike but have decided they want it based entirely on fluff. We get the bike industry we deserve apparently.

Yup, exactly that.

I've ridden various 650b proto and production bikes and the difference is inconsequential to anyone other than maybe a professional. Even then, Nico suggested its what amounts to fractions of a percent different.

You (we) do get what we deserve, all I read on here is we don't want it, pointless etc, yet literally all the research, numbers and trends prove the polar opposite.

I keep saying it, but 26" sales at the higher end of the market are in free fall at the moment. For bike companies, we either embrace the change, or we don't sell any bikes. It's that simple.

The Heckler has always been the bike that I picture in my mind when someone mentions a F/S bike. Still looks good after all these years. Never owned one, like, as it's "too rad" for a mincer like me. RE 650B/26".................erm, meh?

but 26" sales at the higher end of the market are in free fall at the moment.

Sort of a self fulfilling prophecy though - if customers are holding off buying to see whats going to happen next, i.e. if they're going 650 or staying with 26, then either is a valid choice - people aren't 'not buying 26' they're just waiting to see the manufacturers shit or get off the pot before buying anything at all.

dantsw13 - Member

DT78 - hecklers have a short top tube, so people who normally ride a M get a L.

This new one has a longer TT, apparently - same length as the Bronson.

Now here's an idea - buy a 650b bike, put a longer travel 26' fork on it, with 26' wheels. Get extra clearance on big tyres and a lower bb! Winner, or instant death?

I'm having the same twisted thoughts... 😈

If you run 2.4/2.5" 26" tyres your almost running 650b/27.5" anyway... i.e. 2.4" Rubber Queens are bigger than most 2.2" 650b/27.5" tyres.

I might do try this on a hardtail... I guess my Mmmbop would probably take a 27.5" wheel but I don't want to go raising the already rather high BB.

Can't think of any donor 27.5" hardtails though 😕

I'd assume a 650b Chammy is on the way which would be very tempting.

Edit: ... and carbon too please Mr Royksopp... oh and for the same price as the current alu one 🙂

Edit edit: can't see the Chammy at all on their US site!

but 26" sales at the higher end of the market are in free fall at the moment

is that driven but riders jumping on the bandwagon and believing the hype of bigger wheels, or by future-proofing their expensive new purchase due to paranoia that if they spend thousands on a 26" it'll be obsolete (no spares/higher end parts availability) in 2 years? I believe its the latter.

I am totally ambivalent to the big wheel revolution, some people I know who've bought em love em, some have hated em, all my current bikes are 26" and theres nothing wrong with them, but if I was in the market for a new high end bike now I'd wait a year for the 650/29 dust to settle, and/or go for a bigger wheeler for fear of being abandoned by spares and component makers.

Looks nice 🙂 Santa Cruz seem to have a knack for making bikes that are really fun to ride and I'm sure this'll be no exception.

I think it's all due to indecision about 29ers. People feel happy that they've moved up a size, yet nothing's really changed.

(should I apostrophe nothing's? Spell check says no, but my head says yes)

Apostrophe ok. You're abbreviating "nothing has"

As for wheel size, erm, I like 29ers and the Tropicana colour scheme.

Glad me and Ms AD have just bought a BLT and 26" Heckler frame.

AlexSimon you are spot on, the rolling diameter of my 26" wheels with hans dampf 2.35, was within about 5mm of a 650b wheel i offered it up to, 29ers have their place with these folk

but the whole 650b thing is snake oil for the easily led.

mrblobby - Member

Edit edit: can't see the Chammy at all on their US site!

Hidden away in their "Hardtail" section

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/chameleon/

Nice to see it has what looks like a Maxle.

what is not good is the expanding collet pivot, i had constant trouble with them on my Blur LTc, they sieze all the time and are made of cheese, its not even hard cheese either its more like dairy lea.

oh and no reverb stealth routing either, makes my strive look awesome value, a heckler to a slightly lower spec than my AL8 would cost over £3900 thats jst a piss take.

I hope they have given their bikes proper top tubes this time round - it does seem that a lot of american bikes have pigmy top tubes these days. The medium Covert is the same.

SC also need to make sure that they get the trends right because they're no longer really a small company, admittedly they're no Giant or Specialized, but they certainly churn our more bikes that Knolly or Banshee.

I agree that it probably is a self fulfilling prophecy with people having off until the debate is settled. I've ignored it so far, but it does seem like there will be less and less 26 inch bikes available soon which I assume will settle the debate once and for all.

I also think that a lot of the naysayers (myself included) are probably those people the industry hates who hang on to stuff for ages and buy a lot second hand. My SX frame is a 2005 and is only just getting replaced and my 05 36's are still going strong and will end up on my new frame.

a heckler to a slightly lower spec than my AL8 would cost over £3900 thats jst a piss take.

Comparing the direct sales model of the Strive to building up a distributed frame is always going to look extreme.

More than half the people I ride with are on Santa Cruz bikes these days (slightly depressing, but there you go).

AlexSimon - Member

I think it's all due to indecision about 29ers. People feel happy that they've moved up a size, yet nothing's really changed.

Bingo. People want novelty but they're afraid of change. 650B give the "best" of both worlds, something new and shiny combined with a change that they'll barely notice. Oy veh.

Nomad next? Or has than already happened & I've missed it?

also - I'll be honest. All these long travel bikes look better with 27.5 wheels in the photos. 160mm bikes no longer look tall and gangly - they look like 140mm bikes 🙂

I find this 650B trend a tricky one. I'm firmly in the "it won't make any difference" camp. I've done a fair bit of testing of 29ers and even there I think the differences are pretty small. However, I'm kind of pleased that Orange (for example) decided to make the new Five a 650B. If 650B dies a death then you can always run 26" wheels and either use larger tyres or just enjoy the extra mud clearance and lower BB. But if you buy a new 26" frame today and 650B does become the de-facto small wheel size it might be a bit more tricky to source spares. So, it's just about future proofing I guess.

But that's just buying into the hype in another way really.

ninfan - Member
Sort of a self fulfilling prophecy though - if customers are holding off buying to see whats going to happen next, i.e. if they're going 650 or staying with 26, then either is a valid choice - people aren't 'not buying 26' they're just waiting to see the manufacturers shit or get off the pot before buying anything at all.

precisely, I wouldn't know what to buy at the moment

I am quite happy with 26, and have no desire for bigger wheels, but I'd be mighty pissed off if I buy a new frame to find out in a years time that every manufacturer is trying to phase out 26 frames and components

in the end I reckon I will still be faster than the 27.5" guys in my 26, it's about the rider not the bike 😉

As above my decisions are purely based on which one will be around in a few years rather than which one is going to be insignificantly better.

I may end up going for a 29er for that reason.

Glad I got mine now then!!!

Mine is 3 months old and I had lusted after one for years. Having to buy new wheels as well would have been a deal breaker.

Heckler with a Deore Triple crank??? Eeuuchh!

They're really not that bad, honest! This with the deore BB is the only thing on my bike that's budget. Honestly doesn't bother me, although a mate reckons that they're a bit flexy compared to his SLX.

acidchunks - I personally think that the new Deore stuff looks really good for once. If the rest of it works as well as the brakes (I love mine) then it will be hard to justify the extra cost of XT.

The wheel size thing could make those who have bikes for ages or are waiting for the dust to settle hang on to stuff even longer. Bike stuff is getting ever more expensive so when a new frame involves fork and wheels, many may just stick with what they've got. If I was having to change the wheels and forks for the Banshee, I wouldn't have bothered because it would have cost too much. So it may help drum up business in places like the states of for those who can afford it but it may have the opposite effect on a lot of other people.

can someone wake me up when all this nonsense has finished?

To be honest, its more the triple on an AM bike. I have the Deore brakes and think they are ace!

Well I'm glad I didn't wait any longer to get my heckler now.
Got to admit to being fed up with having 650b pretty much forced upon us. 🙄

26er is officially dead.......

$1400 in the States / Canada for the frame, and 1400 pounds in the UK? You guys should boycott buying bikes until distribution channels stop taking the pish!

I thought it was £1199 in the uk?

£1199 is still over priced

Especially now you have to get new wheels to go with your shiny new frame 😐

to be confirmed but i predict around the £1400 mark..

I'm not naming the shop as they'll just be selling at the retail price. Either way, anything over a grand is silly money for a few welded bits of aluminium and a shock.

I'm not naming the shop as they'll just be selling at the retail price. Either way, anything over a grand is silly money for a few welded bits of aluminium and a shock.

Agreed. Especially when you can get an awesome complete such as a Scott Voltage for about £1200.

It does seem expensive given that the early 'new' Hecklers were a smidge under a grand.

Unfortunately, it does seem to be the going rate these days and that's about what I paid for my Banshee (although I got some money off). I don't think it helps that the likes of Specialized have moved away from offering reasonably priced frames.

$1400 in the States / Canada for the frame, and 1400 pounds in the UK? You guys should boycott buying bikes until distribution channels stop taking the pish!

+ 1000000
SC are the worst, and whilst I'm a bit of a fanboy they really don't represent VFM.

If you run 2.4/2.5" 26" tyres your almost running 650b/27.5" anyway... i.e. 2.4" Rubber Queens are bigger than most 2.2" 650b/27.5" tyres

I do wonder if the confident move to 650b here is because SC have tested this bike with 26 inch wheels and know that will happily with run either size wheels

DoSC sell more bikes or frames? Changing wheel standards for buying a bike seems irrelevant, you get everything you need. It sframe buyers who a more likely to revolt if they can't use their old wheels and forks

I agree SC frames are extortionate over here - even second hand! That's why I was so smug picking up a mint s/h one in the states for £330 8)

£330 I paid £250 delivered for a like new Heckler. You were robbed.

Please would someone explain to me, that when a real player in the industry makes a deliberate move to update it's range, ( a range that is, in all fairness, a very popular one - who mentioned earlier that nearly all his riding buddies ride Santa Cruz bikes?) and not just with new colours and a few little tweaks. They have brought out 2 new bikes and redesigned their core product ( Orange and 5 anyone?), and all 3 are designed with the 650B wheel size as their primary focus.

And there are still, yes still, people on this forum who are suggesting that the 650B will die a death and it'll never catch on! Do what?!

Not only Santa Cruz, Scott, Orange, Cube, Turner etc etc....

Think about the cost of getting one new bike to market. Development, prototypes, redesign, manufacturing, ensuring that the component manufacturers are going to be able to supply their own tested and evaluated products. The investment involved by all these companies and people is eye watering.

Furthermore, many of the 650B bikes that have been launched are not first time purchases, they are being targeted at people who know a bit about their chosen hobby/sport/pastime and are prepared to invest time and money into it. An educated market.

I would say that's quite a risk. They must be pretty sure that these bikes will be an improvement over those that have been thus far, otherwise, they are set to lose a lot of money and may well put some of them out of business completely. That would certainly reduce choices for the keen mtb'er.

I don't believe the industry can afford for the 650B move to fail. The global economy is stretched, money and credit is not as available as it has been. It could be suggested that the industry has invested in itself to try to stimulate demand and growth. Better than introducing cuts wouldn't you say?

How about a change of attitude from the skeptic's? How about giving change a go? What is there to be afraid of? What is the worst that could happen? ( and please, no more with the "I won't be able to get pucker bits for my 26er in a few years..." Of course you will ).

Attitude is everything and we make our own world. 😀

Have you read this?
http://www.bikemag.com/gear/exclusive-video-bronson-santa-cruzs-new-650b-trail-bike/

Interesting link, thanks Simon 🙂

I'll gladly modify my spiel on whether they are an improvement! And to one that suggests the market wants it to be an improvement!

Is there any point in making the NOAMD 650b ? is that segment in the market not filled with the recent intro of the BRONSON ?

Like wise the SOLO ? why buy a SUPERLIGHT or BLUR in 650b when you can have the other ?

Orange have done the 5, Santa Cruz has now done the HECKLER, When and If the NOMAD goes 650b surely the V10 will get the same treatment ?

This is a stroke of genius by the marketeers at SC. They spend the next few years getting everyone to upgrade to 650b, then, it doesn't take a genius to see what's coming next, they bring out a new and improved wheel size.... 29"! Why go jump to 29" wheels in one step, when you can do it in two and sell twice as many bikes. They're not daft these marketing men at SC. far more clever at those other manufacturers who want us to jump to 29" straight away 😉

It's not santa cruz' doing. The MTB industry have effectively formed a cartel and decided that its going to make 650b. That's it. There's nothing us consumers (particularly in the uk) can do about it. Personally, I think it'll damage the industry in the short run. We know that there's next to no difference between 26 and 650b, so relatively high end customers are going to skip the frame upgrade we may have been considering and ride our bikes until they're at the end of their lives so that we don't have to run out and buy new forks and wheels. I know that's my plan. Ill still be able to service and repair my wheels and forks (spares are mainly common so wont disappear) so as long as I don't snap anything, I should be good for a good while. That's missed sales for the manufacturers.
I am aware that when I do need a new bike, the likelihood is that it'll have to be a 650b.

Simon that's a great link

I just wish the video ended with the interviewer saying

"If you can't tell the difference then why did you change it so I need new wheels and Fork..."

I just wish the video ended with the interviewer saying

"If you can't tell the difference then why did you change it so I need new wheels and Fork..."

The article kinda did with SC saying they were receiving loads of calls and emails asking for it.

brakes..............

+1

Having just chopped in a HT and a 5 for a blingy Soul I reckon one of those new Hecklers could join it next year 🙂

If that link does not make you think that the marketing guys are taking us for a ride I don't know what does?

Slackalice

I'm happy that they made it because people wanted it. However I think that they could have done with acknowledging why people are concerned

Maybe ampthill, I do see your point, it would be wise for the industry to then try to allay the fears you have. Although that might not help them sell the new bikes into which so much time and investment has been made.

As I suggested earlier, I am thankful that the industry has gone down this route rather than cutting back.

Slackalice

personally I'll be fine. I've had a mountain bikes for 25 years plus and I'm on my 5th. The high initial turnover was down to theft. I'll ride my FS into the ground and replace the whole thing.

But I do see the where the swappers are coming from

John

ampthill - Member

I'm happy that they made it because people wanted it.

I'm not... Can't blame Santa Cruz but their boy hits the nail on the head, people want it but they don't know why. Most of the pressure for them to make a 650B bike came from people that had never ridden one. So sure, it's customer led in that sense but obviously the customers didn't end up pointing in that direction naturally, this is 100% a hype-led thing not an experience-led thing.

Some bike companies make the best bikes they can, and hope to sell them. Others make the most sellable bikes they can. Can't blame anyone for choosing the second camp but I'm glad most of my lot came from the former.

$1400 in the States / Canada for the frame, and 1400 pounds in the UK? You guys should boycott buying bikes until distribution channels stop taking the pish!
+ 1000000
SC are the worst, and whilst I'm a bit of a fanboy they really don't represent VFM.

Ampthill, like you I have also been riding mountain bikes since the mid 80's and also share the same philosophy of riding my bikes until they wear out. I've just replaced my 13 year old SC Superlight, with.... A 650B PYGA. My reason being, I wanted to try something different.

We are the same chap! We love riding our bikes! 😀

You forget that the £ is worthless, US prices generally have no sales tax quoted there is import duty and 20% VAT added to anything, but apart from that the distributor must be raking it in

It seems to me like the industry has noticed that lots of people have been talking about wanting 650b bikes and obviously they want to sell more bikes.

But I'd still like to know what proportion of mountain bikers have asked for 650b. If 10% of bikers use forums and 20% of them like or want 650b then that equates to 2% of mtbers overall but an apparent 20% of observed mtbers if you look at the numbers of internet evangelists.

Out of all of the mtbers I know not a single one is remotely interested in 650b, and I'm the only one out of >20 frequent riding mates to own a 29er.

I'm looking to replace my 2005 Heckler frame but I can't afford new wheels, tyres and a fork as well, let alone a whole new bike, especially as the riding benefits, if any, will be all but invisible. So I'm not going to bother, I'm going to wait a few more years and see what happens. Along with almost everyone else I know.