Draft Charter:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/20150121-ctc-sustrans-united-discriminatory-new-forest-charter
http://www.newforestnpa.gov.uk/cycle-charter
🙄
And this is a country that is supposedly so proud of its cycling and participation.
So long as you do it somewhere else, of course.
NIMBYs
In the end, it'll come down to financial interests. If enough people start to stay away, and make it clear why they're doing so, affecting the livelihoods of people living there then they'll change. Or turn it into a gated ghetto for rich people.
How about restricting the number of cars entering the forest to 1000 per day.
Do other NPA's act in this way? Do NPA's actually follow any guidelines?
What a ghastly attitude.
Or turn it into a gated ghetto for rich people.
This.
So the rich can sit behind their gates getting ever more paranoid about the 'threat' posed by the proles.
If ever a mass "trespass" was called for....
So,
Basically - restrict numbers of bikes, and make them wear number plates for identification in case of incident.
The only 'incident' I remember in the last few years was when a resident threw tacs all over the road and some chap broke his collar bone.
It is really sad they level of hatred they seem to be pointing at cyclists. It won't stop with sportives they already managed to stop the funding which was supposed to be for family hire bike centre too.
quite.
Much more of this nimbiest bollox from the NFPA and they'll soon see what a few more than 1,000 people have to say.
Based on a a very light read, the proposal is on the size of events (max 1000 riders) not the number of cyclists in the forest per se. It's not stopping access by individuals, groups of mates, club runs etc.
If events are compromising use/enjoyment of the NP for others, it seems a reasonable position as long as comparable restrictions apply to other groups (car rallies, horseathons etc).
The NP is a shared resource not a bike park.
"To reduce inconvenience to other road users, including local residents, businesses and other cyclists, please accept a maximum of 1,000 riders. If another cycling event is planned for the same day, using the same roads, the total number of riders should not exceed 1,000."
Seems reasonable to me.
remember when some rail company banned bikes on trains, so a large number of people turned up with non-banned objects larger than bikes....
illogical regs deserve petulant responses.
Appears to be entirely voluntary and therefore unenforceable?
Got to wonder what they'd do if a bunch of people just 'happened' to be riding along the same route as a sportive or similar at the same time? After all they aren't held on closed courses.
Wonder if someone tried to stop you from riding if there'd be any legal comback?
illogical regs deserve petulant responses.
Group ride anyone?
Perhaps a few thousand cyclists all riding in a big bunch, but really slowly so as not to spook the horses?
Seems to be a charter - as in this is what we'd like you to do. No reason to adhere to it. Do they have an equivalent one for point to point meets, runs and hikes? Some (but not all) of the requirements seem pretty reasonable.
Perhaps a few thousand cyclists all riding in a big bunch, but really slowly so as not to spook the horses?
sounds like a very dull day out 😉
Anybody here with lots of money who can find some euro law that can be thrown at them?
Seems reasonable to me.
Presumably you back a limit on 1,000 vehicles attending other New Forest events too?
Maybe if we all hired an elephant each and wandered round on that for the weekend ... 😆
Based on a a very light read, the proposal is on the size of events (max 1000 riders) not the number of cyclists in the forest per se. It's not stopping access by individuals, groups of mates, club runs etc.If events are compromising use/enjoyment of the NP for others, it seems a reasonable position as long as comparable restrictions apply to other groups (car rallies, horseathons etc).
The NP is a shared resource not a bike park.
"To reduce inconvenience to other road users, including local residents, businesses and other cyclists, please accept a maximum of 1,000 riders. If another cycling event is planned for the same day, using the same roads, the total number of riders should not exceed 1,000."
Seems reasonable to me.
+1
matt, unfortunately this will be the thin end of the wedge. Once certain protacols have been established to treat cyclists differently to other users of the forest it will become accepted that cyclists need to be 'managed' and make it easier for more drastic interventions to be introduced. Its a direction of travel and an approach that is completely at odds with encouraging cycling within the forest.
The New Forest is a total disaster story as far as cycling is concerned and the NPA should be disgusted with itself. The opportunity was there to create a world leading public space with park and ride, cycle paths, conservation areas, childrens educational areas etc etc and all they have done is pander to the lowest common denominator and ruined it for all.
The NP is a shared resource not a bike park.
Current government advice on mass cycling events in national parks suggests they are to be encouraged, unlike events like the new forest motor show.
[i]Parks are attractive locations for large-scale community, charitable or other events and festivals such as organised charity walks, cycling events, cultural and musical events and fairs. Events should be encouraged which fully engage local communities and visitors, showcase ‘greener living’, minimise harm to the environment and help to interpret and encourage access to Parks. Such events can be significantly beneficial to achieving Park purposes and deliver economic and social benefits to local communities. Events with the potential to harm the special qualities of a Park, such as caravan and vehicle rallies and large music festivals, will need to be controlled.[/i]
[arsehole]Who cares its flat and swampy there anyway..[/arsehole]
Maybe if we all hired an elephant each and wandered round on that for the weekend
....as long as you display a number front & back!
matt, unfortunately this will be the thin end of the wedge.
Perhaps, or perhaps not.
If the proposal itself is reasonable, go with it, take it for what it is.
If the wedge gets thicker, kick back then, with a strong case of "we already agreed to A, we're reasonable people, but now you also want B, it's not justified and that's not on".
"To reduce inconvenience to other road users, including local residents, businesses and other cyclists, please accept a maximum of 1,000 riders. If another cycling event is planned for the same day, using the same roads, the total number of riders should not exceed 1,000."Seems reasonable to me.
Quantify that inconvenience and compare it to the impact of other events and user groups within the park and it might be reasonable. Single out a user group on the basis of prejudice and then write a charter restricting them without conducting any research and you're not being reasonable.
Who cares its flat and swampy there anyway..
Hey, not true! There are 2 or 3 areas where it's just swampy.
What the heck are the pony round ups and why do they take precedence?
So, as the meeting was at 9:30, did anyone go and have they voted for it?
British Cycling, CTC and Sustrans have released a joint statement explaining their opposition, and it sums it up well:
Cycling groups won't sign up to it, so no, it won't be enfoceable. I think the point that needs to be remembered is that it is basically an attempt to persecute cyclists based on prejudiced whim of a small minority of locals. It is utterly unfair when compared to treatment of other user groups. I think cyclists need to make a stand to prevent this spreading, and as suggested in the statement above, a negative attitude to cyclists does not need fuelling any further.
A charter to guide large scale cycling events in the New Forest has been supported by the New Forest National Park Authority.All the key statutory organisations (police, highways, councils) and many other organisations in the National Park have backed the charter, which contains 30 clauses setting out best practice on organising cycling events in the New Forest.
Last year the National Park Authority joined with the District Council’s Safety Advisory Group (SAG) to set up a Cycling Liaison Group following unacceptable behaviour by a minority of both riders and residents and a rise in complaints about cycling events.
The Cycling Liaison Group agreed all but two clauses, one of which was a cap of 1,000 riders per day.
New Forest National Park Authority Chairman Oliver Crosthwaite-Eyre said: ‘The vast majority of cycle events are under this threshold and have been operating without any complaint for many years. The figure of 1,000 has been well received by parish councils and at recent New Forest Consultative Panel meetings - the Panel has 80 local organisations as members. The important thing is that these measures should enable all road users to go about their business as usual even when an event is taking place.
‘We have always said we have no powers to regulate events and the charter is voluntary. With the SAG we jointly set up the Cycling Liaison Group to help explore the common ground between polarised opinions and find ways in which they can be more easily accommodated in the National Park.
‘We hope that all event organisers will follow the Charter’s criteria even if they don’t agree with it all.’
The charter will be sent to all cycle event organisers. Events will also be considered against the charter’s criteria on a case-by-case basis by the SAG. The SAG website register of events has a feedback form for each event which will enable monitoring of the charter.
Mr Crosthwaite-Eyre said: ‘The charter obviously does not supersede the Highway Code but the New Forest is unique in that it is a working forest with forestry, farming and equestrian activity on its narrow roads as well as free-roaming animals. Much greater care than normal is needed when using our Forest roads.
‘Cycling is an important way for people to get around the Forest, whether for work or pleasure, and a great way to enjoy its special qualities. We welcome responsible cycling and in particular continue to support initiatives that encourage people to swap their cars for sustainable transport.’
I think thats the cause of the issue, lots (1000's) of people turning up who have no idea about the workings of the area and potentially causing a danger to animals.What the heck are the pony round ups and why do they take precedence?
I think thats the cause of the issue, lots (1000's) of people turning up who have no idea about the workings of the area and potentially causing a danger to animals.
So presumably they are going to ban all holiday makers from the area too?
The nub of the issue is that there is no evidence to suggest cyclists - in any numbers - cause danger to animals or other users of the park. It has been included because a minority have an agenda against cyclists, not because of any genuine problems/danger with wildlife or other users. If there were then they could have stated examples and statistics to prove it. There are none because there isn't a danger.
All of this is just giving the verderers and rich folk more reasons to give all cyclists greif.
It all comes from the wiggle sponsored uk cycling mass rides. Whilst these are great for the economy etc, they have stired up this debate.
The national park authority seem to be held to ransom by the verderers and other groups who run the new forest.
Anyway, the new forest is crap, don't come and visit, unless your coming to the big bike bash, the only mass participation event the nimbys like 😉
I sent an email to enquiries@newforestnpa.gov.uk asking them if they were aware that their decision was likely to deter visitors from going to the NFNPA, and in fact meant that I wouldn't spend any money there at all because I know when I'm not wanted.
Unlike Italy, France and Belgium who are actively encouraging people like me to visit. so I've told them that's where I'll spend my money.
It's arguable that cyclists and cycle sportives make the roads of the New Forest safer by acting as rolling speed controls, preventing cars from travelling at dangerous speeds - thus making injury to people or ponies less likely.
Safety was the main concern wasn't it?
New Forest is unique in that it is a working forest with forestry, farming and equestrian activity on its narrow roads as well as free-roaming animals. Much greater care than normal is needed when using our Forest roads.
well so long as 'unique' means just like a lot of other national parks then i can see his point. 🙄
Screw the New Forest and it's narrow minded people by not visiting the place (with or without a bike)
New Forest locals are a bunch of weirdos. Cyclist hating, satanic child abusers.
Road signs on entry to the New Forest need amending.
"Visitors Not Welcome"
It really does seem that the New Forest really dont want cyclists there. Anywhere else (i.e. where the monied gentry dont live) would be quite happy to have cyclists in these numbers pootling about in forests spending their money on accommodation etc.
Remember this charter is primarily aimed at road riders using the roads. Most of which have speed limits of 40mph or less. I for one cannot see why there needs to be this continuing animosity from some locals.
As others have said there appears to a few with an agenda against cyclits in the New Forest.
I haven't been there for a long time, which is a shame as its lovely there in spring. Must get back there for a midweek trundle when things have dried out a bit.
I have a vision
Critical mass: Lyndhurst
Did the bit about number plates get adopted? That truly is batshit mental.
As for the rest of it, how many sportives have 1000+ riders in the NF?
The more I read it, the more I think the capacity thing backhandedly improves the lot of cyclists and cycle events. Any organiser challenged by Nimby whiners about their event, provided it doesn't involve 1000+ riders, can simply point to the charter, and say their event is in full compliance with it, so what's the issue?
As I have said before, just keep on driving past the New Forest and go somewhere with better riding (really not hard) and not run by psychopaths.
The more I read it, the more I think the capacity thing backhandedly improves the lot of cyclists and cycle events. Any organiser challenged by Nimby whiners about their event, provided it doesn't involve 1000+ riders, can simply point to the charter, and say their event is in full compliance with it, so what's the issue?
they wont stop at 1000 because it won't fix the (imagined?) issues, the number will get reduced - if it is ever adopted. Remember they originally suggested 500.
Big Bike Bash (and all other cycle events that take place in the New Forest) should be looking for an alternative venue.
I'd hate 1000's of cyclists in my local area too so I kind of sympathise but I wouldn't be vindictive about it. I expect some of the riders are as pig headed as the locals though
Just been approved 17 for 3 members against.
I live and work here, just to re-iterate we're not all rich and/or anti-cycling (a vocal minority are) and many of us within have been opposing this charter as it is. The question to be asked is why the inequality/discrimination i.e. only cyclists and not include all things that cause (minor) inconvenience to residents like running events, the round ups, Boxing Day point to point, New Forest Show, events at Beaulieu, grockles, retired people in Honda Jazz or Hyundai automatics etc etc
Big Bike Bash happens all on a private site causes inconvenience to no-one, but the reputation NFNPA are getting will have an impact on local economy, our business relies on visitors and we'll suffer
As I have said before, just keep on driving past the New Forest and go somewhere with better riding (really not hard) and not run by psychopaths.
Have to disagree, I think it's all the more reason to ride there, just to stick up two fingers at them
I'd make damn sure to take sandwiches and a thermos flask rather than spend money in local businesses like I do anywhere else though.
Have to disagree, I think it's all the more reason to ride there, just to stick up two fingers at themI'd make damn sure to take sandwiches and a thermos flask rather than spend money in local businesses like I do anywhere else though.
I've also come round to this view - though maybe I'd throw Avontyrrel a few of my grockle pennies as he seems like a nice chap.
I don't have a problem with the 1000 limit. The best sportives I've done were the small to medium sized ones. The guys putting on the mass participation versions that the New Forest (and other areas) have had land on them are just profiteering - they are not putting 4000+ riders out there because they love cyclists and have your interests at heart but because they love your money.
Riding a bike, doing time trials and other events in the forest was no biggie for decades until recently and imho it will be great when it settles down again. To not at least try and comprehend why some locals struggle with profit making companies using the public highway for personal gain is to be as pigheaded as some of the locals. You've got put away your pro cycling blinkers and look at it objectively. This is not a pro/anti cycle thing, it's about the company running these events. Personally I think they are taking you all for suckers.
I'd hate 1000's of cyclists in my local area too so I kind of sympathise
This.
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view cycling has taken off in a big way in this country and where once the New Forest was somewhere nice and quiet for everybody to enjoy, these days the summer weekends are an overcrowded mess of everybody trying to 'enjoy' the countryside....its not just cyclists, its ramblers, picnic-ers (if thats a word!), people wanting space to BBQ, motorcyclists etc etc....
...part of the problem is that as a nation we have become too London-centric and everything seems to revolve around the South East (which is by and large a shit-hole lets be honest)....if people used their imagination and branched out a little further they would be able to enjoy whatever outdoor activity they wanted and with little impact on the environment and without having to compete for space with everybody else who had the same idea that weekend.
Organisers of these Sportives have to take some of the blame....1000 riders in one event?!...i'd be annoyed if that was going on outside my house every weekend through the summer too.
As cyclists we have this wonderfully pious view of the world where we can do no wrong because our hobby is healthy and non polluting but not everybody enjoys cycling....i like killing things with a shotgun but i absolutely accept that others dont so i wouldnt ram it down people's throats and get all militant about it if i couldnt do it in a particular area.
To be fair if the only time you cycle to the New Forest is in a Sportive where you need 1000 other riders to hold your hand then you probably should give yourself a talking to....ride by yourself or go with a small group, you'll probably enjoy it more and you'll certainly ruffle far fewer feathers too.
re. the 'landed gentry' comments....behave yourselves, this isnt a sixth form common room, plenty of property in the New Forest is affordable, not everybody lives there in gated mansions...it was only a few years ago the other half and i were looking at moving there (budget circa 200k) and there were loads of properties at reasonable prices as there is very little work locally....ditto for loads of places in rural UK that the blissfully ignorant think you need to be a millionaire to live there.
Are they really that big? 4000+ on open road sportives is taking the piss, IMO.
Just been approved 17 for 3 members against.
the reputation NFNPA are getting will have an impact on local economy, our business relies on visitors and we'll suffer
If they don't represent the interests of locals, more locals need to get involved really. If NF residents who object to this sort of rule don't make themselves heard, they can't really be too surprised when tourists go elsewhere.
This is not a pro/anti cycle thing, it's about the companies running these events. Personally I think they are taking you all for suckers.
There's a much more important issue at stake here than whether sportives are good value.
🙄
Are they really that big? 4000+ on open road sportives is taking the piss, IMO.
They have 16000 at the Ronde sportive and people don't scatter tacks or try to legislate to keep the numbers down. Oddly they view it as a celebration of their area and an excuse to show off what their towns and villages have to outsiders. Strange foreign types eh?
chipsngravy - Member
Big Bike Bash (and all other cycle events that take place in the New Forest) should be looking for an alternative venue.
Big Bike Bash is on private land! Hence it's no issue!
It's only the UK Cycling events that this charter has any reference to. There are other sportives in the New Forest that have under 1000 riders, and will continue as they have done for years.
Owner of UK Cyling events, Martin Burden, who live a stones throw from the national park boundary, has stated he intends to ignore the charter. This not going to help.
Anyway, as a local, I'm going out tonight for a ride in the New Forest, as I do 2-3 times every week.
martinhutch - MemberAre they really that big? 4000+ on open road sportives is taking the piss, IMO.
and how many cars use the NF roads on a daily basis?
i'm attempting to sort out an entry for the 'ardechoise' - a cycling event in france, it'll host something like 16 THOUSAND cyclists.
maybe I'd throw Avontyrrel a few of my grockle pennies as he seems like a nice chap.
www.avontyrrell.org.uk - and it a charity!
And home of the big bike bash!
www.bigbikebash.co.uk
^ agree with the money making side, that's what the big events are about, never quite understood why someone would want to line an organiser's pockets to ride on public roads when you can do it for free, whenever you want. The big UKCE/Wiggle rides have caused this rise in feelings for some influential locals, it was alright a few years back
never quite understood why someone would want to line an organiser's pockets to ride on public roads when you can do it for free
Surely you can make that comment about a lot of outdoor activities, even some of yours.
From reading OP link it appears CTC and sustrans were involved in the creation of charter and were happy with it except 1000 limit and "number plates" front and back, asked for evidence and logical reasons why which was met with deafening silence as per.Some (but not all) of the requirements seem pretty reasonable.
This is the only user group who has limits on numbers and the "number plate" thing is more stringent than motor bike regs. Picking on cyclists (again) coz an influential minority of new forest residents don't like them.
^ true, point taken atlaz, maybe I'm just a tight arse
wasn't that the number the NF nobbers were bandying about last year when it was something like 1100 each day.Are they really that big? 4000+ on open road sportives is taking the piss, IMO.
OK that's a fair number of cyclists but still way off "4000 lycralouts charging down our roads!" I wonder what the car stats are...
they are not putting 4000+ riders out there because they love cyclists
is this number made up? i thought the events were about 1500 (saturday & sunday)
they are not putting 4000+ riders out there because they love cyclists
is this number made up? i thought the events were about 1500 (saturday & sunday)
I seem to remember it was 2000 each day last year...
I'm not stopping going there, in fact I've just come back from a 70k lick around it.
I love the place, it's quiet (if you know where to go) and very beautiful.
I see their point, 1000+ cyclists (or anything including horse riders, cars, motorbikes, shoppers, kids on scooters etc. etc. ) would piss me right off too.
Therefore I think it's a reasonable ask to limit any sportive to under 1000 (or any mass participation event)
VAMO.
I like the number plate idea, gives you a clear way to ID the nobbers at these events who litter the route with their energy gel wrappers...if you can get a photo you could then follow it up and fine the riders responsible or the charge the organisers instead.
(those large european sportives are usually once a year are they not?....16,000 people once a year isnt too bad and with those numbers i should imagine the tourist industry in the area booms for the week/weekend....with the New Forest its close enough to London, Southampton etc that people come just for the sportive and leave again right afterwrds without really putting anything into the local economy....and the events arent a one-off, Wiggle alone put on 3 or 4 each summer in the New Forest!)
and the "number plate" thing is more stringent than motor bike regs
I don't believe they've said what format the numbers have to be either 😈
I've sent them NFNPA a complaint about this decision and asking for some background as to what criteria were used to create this new charter and have had a response saying that they're going to FIA my request and get back to me.
Not necessarily the best use of public money but maybe it'll start to get through to these people that NIMBYism works only for a short time, and usually ends up hurting those its supposed to protect.
New Forest is affordable, not everybody lives there in gated mansions...it was only a few years ago the other half and i were looking at moving there (budget circa 200k)
Try looking on rightmove with that budget now - let me know what you find as I would love to move out of southampton
I ride there a lot as well. It is lovely, and for the large part the roads are in good condition and plenty wide enough for cars and bikes. Ornamental drive is probably still my favourite bit of road. There are even one or two decent short sharp climbs if you know where to look. I think Blissford is a 1in25
These sportives really aren't that often are they? And why don't the ones in the South Downs etc... get the same level of negativity? The roads there are often worse condition / narrower / higher hedges.
Only once in all my years riding there have I startled a pony which I hadn't seen. 99.99999% of the time they just ignore you and keep eating. Even if there was a collision between a cyclist and a horse I think it would be the cyclist who'd come off worse by a long way.
clear way to ID
Well, you will be able to spot the STW riders, as they will all be in Belkin kit with a red rapha rain coat
I went to the New Forest for a day in August, drove round the whole thing and, other than going for a bike ride and a little walk, I didn't really see anything to do.
Deviant, as ever, is completely oblivious to the facts and the point. Probably a troll.
Who exactly is trying to get somewhere in such a hurry in the New Forest anyway? Sit behind the cyclists, drive nice and slowly, look at the trees and the ponies and have a nice relaxing time. It's not like you've got 100,000 people a day commuting through it.
Big Bike Bash happens all on a private site causes inconvenience to no-one
I beg to differ, the pint to pint race caused me a great deal of inconvenience for at least 2 hours...
I'd be annoyed if that was going on outside my house every weekend through the summer too.
Whilst there seems to be a lot more cycle events in the forest, it is not every weekend and most are nowhere near 1000 riders. The Wiggle sportive is only two weekends a year.
The last Wiggle one came past our house on both days. We weren't inconvenienced in the slightest despite that large number of riders.
As has been stated claims of mass disruption and danger to animals are totally unfounded.
To be honest most people in the forest couldnt care a less about the cycling, i.e. it just doesnt bother them either way. It's just a few nimbys.
Whilst this latest bit of negative PR might keep some people away from the forest, it wont change anything for those that live there. We will keep on riding there all the same and giving a stiff ignoring to the NFNPA and the verderers.
I had a number plate when I did RideLondon. It seemed a reasonable requirement to me. What's the objection?
4.4 Report immediately to the Police any instances of sign removal or tampering, obstacles or hazards placed on roads, [b]or offences committed by other road users including other participants[/b].
[img] 
[/img]
I had a number plate when I did RideLondon. It seemed a reasonable requirement to me. What's the objection?
Cyclists are beyond reproach didnt you know that?....cyclists never do anything wrong, back to cycling school for you mattig so you can be indoctrinated with a prevailing attitude of self righteousness and you too can start wearing a helmet cam on your commute to work, shout 'ooiieee!' at road users that dare to come within 6ft of you and post the footage on your very own Youtube channel for fellow cyclists to work themselves into a lather over.
You're all missing the point arguing about the merits of rider numbers and number plates. It's about the fact that cyclists have been singled out in this way with no reason for doing so, with no evidence. It is the discrimination against cyclists that is the issue, not the content of what has been proposed.
None of the other user groups are singled out in this way, when they have their own set of issues and impacts on the area. This unfairness is the problem. No amount of anecdote on sportive rider numbers really matters - nor the reasonableness of number plates. It is the issue of fairness that needs defending.
It's about the fact that cyclists have been singled out in this way with no reason for doing so, with no evidence. It is the discrimination against cyclists that is the issue, not the content of what has been proposed
This
there is very little work locally....
which is why
you need to be a millionaire to live there.
Property has shot up in the New Forest. There is nothing resembling a house under £270k on the outskirts of Southampton, let alone further into the woods.
Id love to have some dedicated trail path around the NF (like in Moors Valley, but not behind a gated carpark) even if they were flat. Better than cheekys 100% of the time,
New Forest is generally very crowded with narrow roads to boot. Limiting an event to 1,000 people doesn't sound so bad to me. As for discrimination what other large scale event might be planned for the roads there ?