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Sorry z1ppy, this is your thread, not mine, but since our wants are pretty similar I'll chip in with my comments on the suggestions too, if I may.
Evil: Looks great, but that's a lot to pay to be one of their beta testers. It's not just a case of unproven reliability, they've got proven unreliability! Still, it may be great (even though the clearance looks tight, the suspension looks stupidly complicated and the shock looks as though it will spend most of the ride grinding mud).
PYGA: 69.5 degrees at 120mm and as far as I can tell there is no option to fit an angleset, so you are stuck with that. Also, I keep hearing about these deals on 2014 models, but I've never seen an advertised price (if it really is that good I might be tempted). Not too keen on press fit BB either, but it wasn't on my list as I guess I could live with it.
Segment: Long chainstays.
Of course, this just shown up the arbitrary nature of my list. Will a degree here or there on the HA or a cm here or there on the chainstays make any difference? Probably not, but you need some way to whittle down the list to a manageable size.
Alex, I do appreciate the input & anyone else willing to put forward a suggestion, my comments aren't meant to be taken as "shooting you down in flames", just replying how I've judged it.
I've been mulling this over for a long time and have covered most of the options.
As per the OP, I believe the Segment is loads of fun and would do all I need it, as no doubt the Pyga/Thumper/Phantom/Smuggler(if it wasn't 1x) would do to, but I want something a bit "more".
RP: go for it, the more discussion, the better in my book & as you know I appreciate your input & thoughts on this area of the market. Whether comments are aimed at me or not, I'm still going to have reply to them as if they were (it is my post after all & I'll cry if I want to)
I don't at all object to Very Long Posts, but in this case it seems to point to the OP having a very hard time making a decision.
This is all a matter of personal choice, natch, but there is a lot to recommend the approach of simply buying the bike, declaring that it is, must and shall be awesome because you've bought it and just riding it. Especially if you're not especially good, the main thing is convincing yourself that it's awesome. 90% of that is psychosomatic, and the rest is good tyres.
🙂
Fellas I'm not precious about it at all. It's a whole chunk of cash so I understand the prevarication. Two options I guess, go through the ball-ache of test riding everything, or find the closest thing to what you want and live with the fact it'll be compromised somewhere else.
Best of luck!
BD/Alex, I'd made my decision a long time ago, I wanted a T-129, it was done all sown up... demoing some other bikes & a longer demo ride on the Whyte changed my mind. Might have been a ball ache but it saved me buying a bike I wouldn't have been 'really' happy with, but even I know I'd have gotten used to it or probably had the shock tuned/changed.
I also wonder whether the PYGA should be in this comparison. However, if you look at the reach and stack number they are pretty much the same as the Segment. Certainly longer than the standard XC options (with neither being quite as long as the Process 111 or Smuggler, for example). STW certainly seemed to like it when they tested it besides the Process and Segment.
Ideally I'd quite like to replace both my 26" Five and mt Solaris with a "nu-skool" 29er and I'm not sure the PYGA quite fits the bill. But if the price were right I might just replace the Solaris frame (which is green too) and keep the Five.
Segment: Long chainstays.
Aha, 450mm is longer than a lot of bikes yeah, but Orange are known for their longish stays and you like Oranges...
I thought the Thumper might be a bit long in the rear but I'm very glad of the stability in reality.
Would like to try a more progressive geometry 29er, but my feeling is they will make most sense when going balls out warp speed fast.
Just to throw another curve-ball into the discussion, I'm not that convinced by demos either. They are fun and I've done a fair few, but if I'm honest, my initial view of a bike is almost always what I expect it to be. When it's not it's often because of some simple thing that I could easily change (shock not being set up for me, heavy tyres, uncomfortable cockpit etc). It takes me months to really decide whether I like a bike or not and most can be adapted to work. It is, as has been suggested, mainly just a matter of convincing yourself that you've made the right choice.
Aha, 450mm is longer than a lot of bikes yeah, but Orange are known for their longish stays and you like Oranges...
Well I like my Five, but that has 425mm stays.
Mind you, I had a lot of fun on a Gyro a couple of years ago. I suspect that, if people didn't keep banging on about the importance of short stays I might not care 😳
Hi folks
As many of you know we're dealers for both Transition and Pyga. In my opinion both the Smuggler and the OneTen are great all-round bikes, with the Smuggler [i]slightly [/i]more biased towards the downs and the Pyga slightly more towards all-day up-and-down rides - but both are a blast (our Smuggler demo hasn't arrived yet so that's not first-hand though if it's anything like the other bikes it's safe to say). I've spent a fair bit of time riding the Pygas.
Also, I keep hearing about these deals on 2014 models, but I've never seen an advertised price
We need to up our advertising, obviously 🙂 We're working on a new website to allow us to do this better but there never seems to be enough time in the day. We have blogged and put out quite a bit of information about our Pyga deals - frame only is £1399 (reduced from £1749) on the remaining 2014 frames. Custom builds from £2000 (but if you can spend £2500 the package is much better).
I'm always amazed that people place so much importance on what journalists say, or want someone else to test the bikes side by side for them. Why not come over to mid-Wales (or another shop which stocks the bikes you're interested in) and try them out side-by-side for yourself? I'm pretty sure if you ride the Pyga, like Alex, you won't want to give it back...
If anyone wants to try a Pyga or a Transition - or for that matter a Merida, Saracen, a Mondraker or anything else we stock, and can't make it to mid-Wales for a demo, get in touch and we'll see about sending you a bike, or arranging a weekend rendezvous at a convenient trail centre.
Just to throw another curve-ball into the discussion, I'm not that convinced by demos either.
I suspect that, if people didn't keep banging on about the importance of short stays I might not care
You are clearly a bit more analytical than most buyers, and I agree that once you know what you want geometry-wise and know how suspension systems feel - the relevance of demo rides decreases.
However you are hung up on the chainstay issue, so I reckon you do need to get out on a bike or two to experience that aspect.
Thanks. I guess I'd have to factor in a headset and BB in that price. So, what, £1,500 all in. Basically the same as a Segment (which will take the headset and BB from the Solaris) but with a better shock and a nicer standard colour (although I could have the Segment in lots of other colours too for an extra £100).
Certainly food for thought.
You are clearly a bit more analytical than most buyers
Ha, you're not kidding there mate. More analytical than most human beings would be closer to the mark.
However you are hung up on the chainstay issue, so I reckon you do need to get out on a bike or two to experience that aspect.
I have tried a few, but the problem is that you are never testing just one thing. For example, I find it much easier to lift the front end of my Solaris (with its 440mm stays) than my Five (with its 425mm stays). So I know there is a lot more too it than one number. I also know that human beings are really unreliable observers. We tend to feel what we are looking for. I could book a demo of a Segment. In fact I might, it would be fun. But I could write my review now, if I'm honest. For the first few rides it will feel how I expect it to feel, unless it has been set up really badly for me, in which case it will just feel awful. It is only after riding a bike for a few months that I start to notice the things that I wasn't looking for.
For those who like numbers, here are the values from the manufacturers web sites. Having ridden 3 of the bikes (Phantom, 111 and T-129) on the same trails I feel I can safely say that no single number, or combination of them, translates into an ability to predict how they will handle on the trail. But then we all knew that anyway 😉
I found that the Process and the T-129 weren't great in twisty stuff despite having short stays. The T-129 also felt more twitchy downhill and climbing on the 111 felt more of a struggle than it should have been. No real idea from looking at the charts why this was the case or why the Phantom felt better to me for my trails and my style or riding.
........Phantom (mid)...Segment.....Process111...Following (high)...T-129
HA......68..................67.5............68...............67.8...................68
SA......74.5................74..............74...............73.2...................73.8
CS......442.................450.............430..............430....................431
WB......1168................1177............1173.............1158...................1160
ETT.....615.................620.............634..............626....................610
Reach...450.................444.............460..............444....................?
Stack...616.................612.............617..............604....................?
Why can't we add tables!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fascinating, so the Phantom seemed to go round corners better than the T129, despite having a longer wheelbase and longer stays? Just goes to show I guess. Although what it goes to show I have no idea 🙂
Actually the Phantom fits all my criteria bar the colour. Pity they offer three colours yet two of them are grey and one is grey(ish) 😀 Or pity I'm so shallow, more like.
I suspect the cornering thing is down to my riding style, the terrain and what I call twisty!
And grey?
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If you are in Scotland (or just happen to be near Dundee) you are welcome to take mine for a spin (and I can show you my twisty).
I'm always amazed that people place so much importance on what journalists say,
Well damn, what do you want us to rely on? Trust you local LBS opinion? Lets see.. I have a number of LBS very closeby, the Santa Cruz dealer said buy SC, the local Orange/Cube dealer says Orange or Cube, the Whyte dealer wanted me to go whyte but since I don't like it, is happy to recommend his new brand Evil.. Which of them do I trust?
My OP when you look at the STW review, is basically the same (if you ignore all my rubbish), but I wanted to confirm the suspension feel, as this isn't really expounded much by reviews, well not to my satisfaction but then they're trying to say something new about every bike. So a generic "it's a 4-bar, it's sofa like plush" or "it's a Single Pivots, it's active and poppy" comment aren't going to come across well repeated ad-nauseum.
So you recommend getting demos, great but not all bike are available, unless you want something more mainstream (in the 120mm 29er fun market, it's more niche brands). I've tried to get a Banshee Phantom demo locally, have had some very kind offers, if I wanted to travel a couple of hours and ride trails I don't know then I could get one, to me that's of limit use.
Damn, that Phantom looks great! And i SO dont need another bike......
OK, it's not quite grey. In fact it does look better out in the wild than on Banshee's web site.
I'm only just up the road (just North of Aberdeen), but as you know there is an iron curtain between Dundee and Aberdeen 🙂
Seriously, it's a very kind offer, but as I said I'm not that convinced by test rides and I'd really need to knick it for a couple of days and ride it on my own trails to get any idea of whether I liked it, which is a bit too cheeky even for me (although I could offer you a 26" Five, or a Solaris, or both, as security 🙂 ),
The Phantom is a great looking bike, I've been eyeing them up since the Sea Otter proto-type, but that colour is gooping in the flesh (sorry Shackleton, it's a personal choice), why didn't they offer it in the lovely Orange that the rest of the range comes in?
I prefer raw bikes but they weren't available in the first shipment. If they had the orange I'd be torn though. I wan't convinced by the green at first either (it changes with the light) but I now like it.
I was looking at the same bikes as you a couple of months ago, dont get too obsessed with the numbers.
I ended up with a camber evo, it wasn't "right" on paper, but my god it's flippin good, that good im not even thing what if i got a phantom or smuggler. Stable, agile, playful, fast, interactive, plush....lots of other contradicting phrases to describe a bike.
I got fed up of debating, deciding demoing and living with are two completely different things, i'll only truly know if it's my bike and i live with it.
All the bikes you're looking at are good, just buy one, it won't let you down. Buy the one you like most, don't put too much debate into it, or else no bike you're going to buy is ever going to be "right".
PS, if you're going to start thinking about linkage layouts, dont tar different bikes with the same layout with the same brush. It's the designer that dictates how the suspension feels, not the general layout, it's bad assuming.
Dean, was cash poor.. now cash rich, the need is great.
PS. BTW, if you in the market for a large Gyro (slap a angleset on it!), the "The bike place" have a rather lovely (little used) ex-demo for a reduced price for sale.
http://www.thebikeplace.co.uk/online-shop/product/98-orange-gyro-pro?search=orange%20gyro
Was my backup plan but as I'm not convinced, I'm happy to let you know (not connected to the shop, I live about 4hrs away). The website setup's a little ropey & you'd forgiven in thinking it's not available but it is... give them a ring/email (& discuss the option of a warranty)
I posted a while ago on here about the advice a lbs gave me when I was looking at fs 29ers and they pointed me towards the Camber EVO.
Anyone else tried one?
Hopefully they are awful as I passed by a good deal on one 😉 BUT in all honesty I think they may well have been right. It just didn't excite me in terms of ownership I guess.
That and the fact that I have a Camber Expert 26er which I find the most frustrating bike I've ever owned (and my mtbing started in '86). Every ride ends in a love it / hate it conclusion.
I totally get where RP is coming from (did I admit that out loud? ? 😉 ) about demo or test rides.
Linking this in with another RP thread, the reason I looked at fs was due to liking my Solaris as a 29er but getting hit with fatigue on a number of rides. On reflection just getting out more helped. I think the rides on the fs and also the road bike made me lazy when it came to standing regularly rather than seated riding.
Obviously having spinal damage from an old accident doesn't help but then I also found swapping bikes on a ride with my son (alu Spesh Carve) then jumping back on mine the steel frame was better than I thought.
I don't think my waffle has added anything to the thread but I feel better for it!
Oh and when weighing them up the closet bike I came to going for was a Transition Smuggler. I liked the 'get on and ride' rather than keep fettling philosophy but haven't bought one so can't say how/if that works out in practice.
I don't think my waffle has added anything to the thread but I feel better for it!
That's good enough for me 🙂
Oh and when weighing them up the closet bike I came to going for was a Transition Smuggler. I liked the 'get on and ride' rather than keep fettling philosophy but haven't bought one so can't say how/if that works out in practice.
I can't help thinking that's just a clever bit of marketing though. Going by the few reviews that are out there the Smuggler is not the most efficient climber and most reviewers still seem to flick the pro-pedal on. But the whole "quit thinking about it and just ride the damn thing" philosophy is not a bad one.
I don't think my waffle has added anything to the thread but I feel better for it!
Did you read the OP? This thread is all about the waffle
The Transistions still another annoying "1x" only bike though, not for me.
Personally I can't be doing with the more mainstream brands, and there fantastic lifetime warranty's, barstewards the lot of them.
Normal Man - Camber evo -
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/who-lives-with-or-has-lived-with-a-camber-evo
My comments from another thread -
"I had a go on the whyte, it was a normal 129 mind, really was not impressed. It didnt pedal that well whilst not being that capable either.
Took a punt on a camber evo even though it has a "steep" 68.5* HA and *long* 450mm chainstay, it really does not ride the way the numbers say it does. So impressed, so capable, so playful, composed, is not a chore on xc rides. To put it into context the type of rider i am, i'm a life long bmxer who gets bored easy, ie i dont ride bikes to sit in the saddle a twiddle the pedals, i constantly need to be doing something with the bike, if it's playful enough for me, it's playful enough for anyone. Im even setting faster times on strava on my camber on some DH stuff than my DH bike.
I guess what im trying to say is dont get too hung on the numbers, i dont know if it's the same for you OP, but my camber evo is my first 29er FS, if you've limited experience of this kind of bike, don't be too quick to draw assumptions."
2 friends who have tried mine now have one. We're all at the "DHer" at the end of the spectrum, i like a good pedal too, dont really ride with XC ppl, but judging by strava on climbs and flatter stuff im not doing too bad, also a BMXer so lots and lots of jumps, manual and silly stuff. I just dont how it is so good at everything i ask of it, i like to think my riding is much more varied than most too.
All the bikes you're looking at are good, just buy one, it won't let you down. Buy the one you like most, don't put too much debate into it, or else no bike you're going to buy is ever going to be "right".
Probably the most sensible comment so far. If you feel some love for the bike you will probably enjoy riding it. If it is a great riding bike but it doesn't light your fire you will never love it.
Probably the most sensible comment so far. If you feel some love for the bike you will probably enjoy riding it. If it is a great riding bike but it doesn't light your fire you will never love it
Well it took us three pages but we got there in the end 🙂
I like Orange bikes. I don't know why. I'm not even sure I care why. But when I open the shed and see my neon orange Five hanging there it makes me smile and I want to go ride it. I've come close with Cotic and if they made a full-suss 29er it would be up there on my list. But they don't. So, really, all that I should think about is whether a Segment would be a good replacement for my 26" Five. Everything else is probably just taking up brain space that I should use for something else.
Thanks for helping me work this out. Now back to z1ppy's problems 🙂
ps. And if deanfbm can manual a Camber I've really got no excuses.
hang were talking about my bike choice, not my personal issues... lets not go there.
PS: I think you'd love/buy the Segment after an 'extended' test ride RP.
Sorry mboy just came back to read the thread so didn't see your response after my post.
To answer your question, yes I've seen one and that's what put me off as I was pretty much all set to buy the Evil. Normally I like to run a 2.3 TK or HR2 on my bikes and I don't want to be squeezing a tyre in the rear and then have little mud clearance particularly give how bloody wet Scotland is most of the time 😆
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Considering the other options on offer, that hardly seems a squeeze (2.25 tyre), but fair enough if you've seen it in the flesh.
What you gunna consider instead though?
Thanks for the Camber EVO feedback deanfbm.
I'm also pleased my waffle didn't go to waste.
RP that comment you made on the need to flick on propedal was interested. That is one (of the list!) of the things that annoys me on my current Camber.
For eg. The other week I had a ride that consisted of sections of paved road, flat hard pack fire road but then some singletrack that was full of roots only broken up by open grass fields which were rutted and bumpy.
On the Cotic I'd stand / sit as required and just ride. On the fs it was constant stopping to flick the switch or forget to and feel compromised*. I tried 'on the fly' but gloved hands just mean you have to be careful not to adjust rebound at the same time!
*ie. Over the grassy stuff you could do with propedal on as it climbs slightly but then all the smaller ruts and divots get ignored (compared to 'open' setting) which meant I ended thinking I should have just bought the ht with me!
Just to try to clear something up, from the OPs post: "It‘s also a good question (RP again) as to quite why the Segment didn’t get the ‘bent’ seat tube of the Alpine 5, maybe they felt it didn’t make it nimble enough compared to the detriment of the descending stability or simply it increased the manufacturing costs? Or is it something to do with the swinging arm clearance, though again they’ve managed it with the Alpine."
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They look identical to me in the seattube department.
Well damn, what do you want us to rely on? Trust you local LBS opinion?
Fair enough, and no - I'd certainly not recommend you listen to us, we all have vested interests. Although we do tell the truth!
Ultimately, as others have said, these are all good bikes and will make you smile.
My comments weren't aimed directly at you. I'm advocating trying bikes out and people deciding for themselves, rather than relying on what someone they don't know, says. We invest a lot of money in demo bikes so that people can do just that. I do realise that it's not always practical for everyone, though.
To give an example of the sort of thing I was expressing dismay about - we've had customers stood in the shop, interested in a bike, but rather than taking it for a free test ride themselves, want to go home and read about what other people online think about it. That seems like a shame to me and not the best way to decide whether a bike is right for you.
Rickon: you've got me there.. had to go check out the picture I took, yes they are identical(ish) & so maybe Orange can't get it any shorter.
Drovercycles, fair enuff, but we all like to have our ego's stroked, and have the in-crowd agree with out every move (apparently)
we've had customers stood in the shop, interested in a bike, but rather than taking it for a free test ride themselves
That's just down right stupid on there part... and you should have bitch slapped them until the took you up on your free test ride 😈
PS: I did love the local Santa Cruz dealer telling me that I couldn't want a slack 29er, because SC designers didn't make one, and they're the experts, so couldn't be wrong could they? I sighed inwardly, smiled and left..
Yes, I'm pretty sure the Segment has the same forward shifted (at the BB) seat tube as the Alpine Five. That's why the chainstays are 6mm shorter than on the Gyro and why they now quote an Actual and an Effective seat angle.
NM: I agree with you about the simplicity of the HT, although I've never found adjusting the shock on an Orange to be much of a big deal as it is just sitting there right in front of you. It does tend to put me off those designs where the shock is mounted vertically down by the BB though.
Thanks RP. Yes, the Camber has the shock mounted under the tt but with the lever facing the ground which is not ideal (imho) for that on the fly adjusting.
That is only one of the issues though if being fair.
Maybe it is more that the Solaris* is the bike I'm looking for but just don't like stopping searching!
*I would have also considered a Stanton Sherpa at time of purchase but always wanted to own a Cotic. I'd also love to see Cotic fs 29er!
Considering the other options on offer, that hardly seems a squeeze (2.25 tyre), but fair enough if you've seen it in the flesh.
Skinny little tyre with a low profile tread pattern, it should look lost in there.
By the time you put a decent rear tyre on it, and build up some wider rims, it's going to be useless.
But then I said elsewhere, with Evil's legendary reliability record & customer services, whether a tyre fits or not is the least of your worries.
Z1ppy, I went with the Spitfire in the end as I'd mentioned in my original post. I just wasn't comfortable having to run a skinny low profile tyre on the rear of the bike. Other than that I'd have bought one.
It's not like I'm unaware of the Evil history, but they seem to be trying to make a good go of it, hardly the 1st bike related company to bump and then be re-invented?
Ardent 2.25 skinny? Not so convinced but then I don't need a anything bigger than a 2.3 but fair points all of them..
But what would you suggest? (120mm slack 29er..), as I say I am happy to have my opinion changed by a good discussion. I'm not 100% for the Evil, otherwise I'd have a deposit down and not be asking here...
Edit: Apologies ultimateweevil.. I must have missed that, unfortunately not an option I'm considering,, now if I could just test a Phantom.... [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggghhhhh ]but we've been there already[/url]
Sorry more curve balls! Before you make your mind up see if you can get a ride on an On-one Codeine, I tried orange (too flexy) for a big lad like me, Kona process 110 ace but not enough travel as it encourages you to get into trouble, tried Codeine- SORTED twas the one for me. Climbs well not the fastest to the top (that could be me)flies along the singletrack on the top, then point it down, MY WORD hold on tight its gonna get mad!! Descends like a downhill bike!! I know I'm biased but two of my riding buddies have ridden it and both have since pushed the buy button
120mm max travel Konanige, I don't need or want more.... Codine and any other with more than 120mm travel are not being considered.
Evil's previous issues never bothered me as they promised to sort out the issues with one of their bikes for all owners and as far as I know they did so that was a plus point for me and the owner Kevin was really approachable and happy to exchange emails about the bike, previous issues and helped suggest a couple of builds I was thinking of at the time.
Out of the ones you've ridden what have you genuinely liked the best?
I'm suggesting the Banshee purely from the point of view I own the Spitfire in 650b guise and I bloody love it and doubt that the Phantom will ride much differently.