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As the title suggests MVDP crashes again during MTB practice, should he just admit it’s not his skillset
yet again he’s injured himself doing mountain bike and written himself out of the TDF.
does it irk him that Pidders is better at something than he is
I'm not convinced it's not his skillset, he obviously lapped a fair few laps of practice, but clearly made a mistake or two on the day. The problem is, it's not his main focus, so he's going into it slightly rusty and when you're not fully on your game, mistakes happen. Personally i think he's 'better' at CX and road arguably yes, but he's certainly capable enough as a MTBer and with his insane power can dominate. But not all sports are crossable between disciplines easily, so in his shoes (i wish) i'd be wanting a bit more MTB time if seriously going for big MTB wins.
I think the title is a bit provocative. He might have to drop MTB due to injury risk. But that’s really not the same as not having the skills
Everyone in the entire peloton is one crash or one injury away from wrecking their TdF pretty much every day. Whether they're out road riding, CX racing, MTBing or even driving a car. 🤷🏻♂️
Katie Archibald wrote herself out of the Paris Olympics when she slipped off her garden steps:
I think MvdP's mountain bike skills are beyond question but when you're in a sport like that where the tiniest error can be the difference between nailing a line at full speed and face planting, you're always on the very edge.
I think people have forgotten that he has been successful on the MTB, and was arguably the best by 2019; 3 XCO wins, 5 XCC wins, and the European XCO champion.......
The issue is since 2019, he's done just 6 XCO races, and very little prep for them - the result, 3 first lap crashes = 3 DNFs. He's completely rusty and it shows; the sport has got more technical, and a lot faster in those 6 years - you can't just turn up and think you'll be competitive. It's not CX, where he can rock up and win.......
If he puts the hard yards in, and actually trains/ races on the MTB regularly, then he can be up there; but choosing to race the Dauphine & Tour makes no sense - especially when the MTB Worlds are his main focus; none of his rivals will be pedalling around France, they'll be on their MTB.........
but choosing to race the Dauphine & Tour makes no sense
The Dauphine / Tour double isn’t that unusual, the Dauphine has long been a warm up for the tour and he’s not going to win the GC on either.
Sad if he misses '25 TDF, will be missed as leadout man and like pre-injury Allaphilippe, ripping up the field up short climbs.
What injuries has he got? Haven't heard anything about him being out of the tour.
As the title suggests MVDP crashes again during MTB practice, should he just admit it’s not his skillset
I thought it was in the actual race - twice.
yet again he’s injured himself doing mountain bike and written himself out of the TDF.
That's not confirmed.
The Dauphine / Tour double isn’t that unusual, the Dauphine has long been a warm up for the tour...
Indeed. Pog and Vinny are doing both this year.
Looking at the video and ignoring his skills for a moment, he got bucked over forwards a lot by the suspension rebounding. I've not ridden a Lux but some flex stay bikes need to be set up and ridden carefully to avoid energy stored in the stays making the rebound really harsh and uncontrollable in certain circumstances. Most racers are on bikes 50mm+ longer and several degrees slacker than the Lux. Gotta wonder if he might have ridden that out if not on one of the shortest and steepest bikes in the field.
Right, back to blaming the rider...he almost never lowers his saddle. This is one the first races he's had a dropper, whether he used it or not is a different matter. Usually every rider apart from MVDP will have their dropper down for jumps like that.
but choosing to race the Dauphine & Tour makes no sense
The Dauphine / Tour double isn’t that unusual, the Dauphine has long been a warm up for the tour and he’s not going to win the GC on either.
From a MTB racing point of view it's not going to make his MTB skills better, and that is his issue. He needs to spend time on the MTB, not pedalling around French roads for what benefit?
Blevins, Koreztky et al won't be prioritising road racing to the detriment of MTB......and neither should he, if he's truly serious about the MTB Worlds......
From a MTB racing point of view it's not going to make his MTB skills better, and that is his issue. He needs to spend time on the MTB, not pedalling around French roads for what benefit?
I think I'm right in saying he is employed mostly as a road racer.
A stage of the Tour or the Dauphine is a bigger result than the MTB worlds and that’s, as said before, what he’s paid for.
I've said it on other XC racing threads that I felt it was a problem that roadies were able to rock up to World Cups and World Champs and beat full time XC racers. To me it somewhat diminished the category, given that for most top level races the best XC mountain bike racers in the world wouldn't be there.
In some ways it seems extreme to increase the technicality of the courses until riders are forced to concentrate on the discipline in order to win but I think it's necessary.
I think it's great if top level roadies want to compete in XC but it shouldn't be something they can do on their spare weekends. It should require a serious commitment.
In some ways it seems extreme to increase the technicality of the courses until riders are forced to concentrate on the discipline in order to win but I think it's necessary
I’m not sure that would work, the only Worlds xc track I’ve been near already looked pretty extreme. Also if the organisers do that, the sport will remain a backwater with little public interest, the big stars in cycling aren’t mtb xc riders.
I’m not sure that would work, the only Worlds xc track I’ve been near already looked pretty extreme. Also if the organisers do that, the sport will remain a backwater with little public interest, the big stars in cycling aren’t mtb xc riders.
My point was it seems to have already happened. XC racers are using bikes with more 'trail' style geometry now compared to a few years ago, probably out of necessity. As was above mentioned, MvdP and Pidcock used to be able to rock up and win. Now it looks like MvdP is crashing rather than winning and if I had to take a guess I would assume it's because the tech requirements have increased.
In terms of being a backwater, I think if road racers are able to come along on their spare weekends and win WC XC races then that is what will consign XC to backwater status. If even the top pros have to give the events respect and time to prepare then I think that will make XC stand out as a top level discipline in its own right.
In terms of being a backwater, I think if road racers are able to come along on their spare weekends and win WC XC races then that is what will consign XC to backwater status
This happens already in CX and that discipline has been having somewhat of a resurgence over the last few years. XC’s problems are more deep rooted than roadies pitching up and winning, if it wants to be a widely watched and therefore respected top level disciplinary .
What do you reckon the main problems with XC are?
The coverage, last time I was watching it on Red Bull, was poor; gaps in camera coverage on the courses, it’s a difficult to make a race of individual racers spread out over a large course a “whole” package, the races are quite long. Unless you have a couple of racers kneck and kneck it comes across as quite processional - it just doesn’t come across as exciting as xc, downhill or road
It's definitely always going to be one for the purists, I reckon.
Unless someone picks up on the idea of running the short course race on a 4X track with the riders pedaling back to the top every lap 😉
XCO has had its pants pulled down by CX for over a decade, partly due to the rivalry between MVdP and WvA and the close racing at times. Most of the public don’t care much about the technical aspects of the course or bike - they just want to be entertained. You rarely see this level of one-to-one racing in XCO. If the XCO organisers decide to make the races even more technical then it’ll just make it more of a niche/minority sport.
All a bit arbitrary now. Broken wrist apparently…
Minor fracture and no news on if he will ride Dauphine or not.
I've said it on other XC racing threads that I felt it was a problem that roadies were able to rock up to World Cups and World Champs and beat full time XC racers. To me it somewhat diminished the category, given that for most top level races the best XC mountain bike racers in the world wouldn't be there.
See to me the likes of MVDP, WVA and TP are more like CX racers that have had to switch their main focus to the road to progress their careers and pay packets, and I don't see them as deficient in terms of bike handling ability. Pidcock is obviously more widely known for racing and winning on MTBs, but I can't see why the label of "Roadie" should rule MVDP out of XC racing.
I really don't get this hang up some MTBers seem to have about curly-barred bike riders taking up their sport it's a false separation different flavours of cycling. As if bikes with suspension, wider bars and fatter tyres are somehow more difficult to ride for someone who's held rainbow stripes in CX (7 times)...
Pushing too hard and breaking a wrist suggests to me that he was actually trying, almost as if he wanted to do well in the race, it's hardly like Nino Schurter never came a cropper before is it?
As for damaging his 2025 TDF? Meh, He's never really been a Grand tour rider (IMO) more of a talented one-dayer, He can excel on the odd stage maybe take some glory on a nadgery climb, but has never had the stamina to be leading a GC contending team... His profile always brings a nice bit of attention from a fans, ideal for sponsors irrespective of results.
He's out of the Dauphiné but it's ~5-1/2 weeks from the start of the tour, and it's been described as a "minor" break, so could a wrist heal sufficiently in that time? Maybe...
I really don't get this hang up some MTBers seem to have about curly-barred bike riders taking up their sport it's a false separation different flavours of cycling. As if bikes with suspension, wider bars and fatter tyres are somehow more difficult to ride for someone who's held rainbow stripes in CX (7 times)...
Again, the issue is not with roadies doing XC. The issue is with WC XC races where the winner is probably not the best XC racer in the world because the best XC racers in the world don't attend most of the WC XC races.
DH racing is the best DH riders in the world. No question. There is never a potential race winner not competing because they have something better to do (yeah, yeah, Martin Maes but Martin Maes is the exception that proves every rule).
imo, if your sport doesn't require it's best competitors to be fully committed to the discipline in order to be in with a chance of winning then your discipline is always going to be seen as the diddy league compared to the big boys. The trick is to figure out how to differentiate your sport enough in order to require the top people to commit fully in order to remain competitive.
Perhaps what we are seeing is that happening by raising the reach requirements to the point where a supremely talented rider is not able to complete the course safely, possibly because he is not committing enough time to his MTB.
I want to see the best racers in the world competing no matter what type of rider they are primarily identified as. However, I want to see that sport differentiating itself enough so that it requires full commitment.
How much have they lifted the difficulty of the course since he won the XCO there in 2019?
Josh Carlson suggested that Alpecin were notable in there lack of a technical advisor to hep them look at how they approach the difficult bits in comparison to other teams.
As was above mentioned, MvdP and Pidcock used to be able to rock up and win. Now it looks like MvdP is crashing rather than winning and if I had to take a guess I would assume it's because the tech requirements have increased.
My take would be that the standard increases year on year and starting from well down the grid (as MvdP and TP tend to have to due to lack of points) increases how hard they have to go at the start to make up for it - and thus increases the risk of an unforced error.
If the XCO organisers decide to make the races even more technical then it’ll just make it more of a niche/minority sport.
All racing is a minority sport.
How many people actually "race" off-road remotely competitively* in the UK? A few hundred? The balancing act is do you make the racing appealing for the riders, or do you make it entertainment.
Maybe there was something in the old proposal that MTB should have been at the Winter Olympics (or was it the X-games?) not the summer games. Make it more like CX, something the roadies can commit to for 4 months of the year and have the World Champs in the spring.
*as in they are competitive, not just entered in a race.
...the issue is with WC XC races where the winner is probably not the best XC racer in the world because the best XC racers in the world don't attend most of the WC XC races...
You can only hand medals and high fives to whoever actually turns up on the day (and has the UCI points required for entry). Seems a bit nonsensical to try and claim anyone but those who finish a WC race on the podium are the "best in the world"...
All racing is a minority sport.
How many people actually "race" off-road remotely competitively* in the UK? A few hundred? The balancing act is do you make the racing appealing for the riders, or do you make it entertainment.
Maybe there was something in the old proposal that MTB should have been at the Winter Olympics (or was it the X-games?) not the summer games. Make it more like CX, something the roadies can commit to for 4 months of the year and have the World Champs in the spring.
*as in they are competitive, not just entered in a race.
This is a fair point, XC (in whatever format) is now probably suffering form the subdivision of niches that MTBing has undergone over the last 35 odd years, the parallels drawn with other flavours of competitive cycling (on and off-road) and the "bang for buck" you might get investing in a decent XC bike Vs CX, Gravel, Enduro, MTB Marathon or whatever else is probably a bit of a deterrent now (in the UK at least).
Whereas in the early-mid 90s MTB racing was XC. DH was a bit of a bolt on as the bikes hadn't really been developed yet, Enduro (in it's current form) wasn't even a thing and 4x was sort of emerging but seen as a little niche still, a great way to knacker your MTB faster by treating it like a BMX.
Now XCO/XCC is an established sport with an Olympic medal attached, but those wanting to compete at the highest levels probably don't see it as the only form of competitive cycling they want to focus on, outside of the Olympics it's profile isn't really high enough to support a dedicated racing career anymore, there's not enough money or exposure in it...
Seems a bit nonsensical to try and claim anyone but those who finish a WC race on the podium are the "best in the world"...
So MvdP and Pidcock are only the best in the world when they actually turn up to races? What are they during the races they choose to skip (which is the majority of them)?
Even if you win a WC XC race with Pidcock and MvdP present, you're still competing against guys who are starting several rows behind you.
The fact they are still competitive starting from so far behind is not a good look for XC racing, imo.
Looking at the video and ignoring his skills for a moment, he got bucked over forwards a lot by the suspension rebounding. I've not ridden a Lux but some flex stay bikes need to be set up and ridden carefully to avoid energy stored in the stays making the rebound really harsh and uncontrollable in certain circumstances. Most racers are on bikes 50mm+ longer and several degrees slacker than the Lux. Gotta wonder if he might have ridden that out if not on one of the shortest and steepest bikes in the field.
Right, back to blaming the rider...he almost never lowers his saddle. This is one the first races he's had a dropper, whether he used it or not is a different matter. Usually every rider apart from MVDP will have their dropper down for jumps like that.
I watched a GMBN tech video, he apparently had a 115mm stem. That's going to help with a front door exit!
Now XCO/XCC is an established sport with an Olympic medal attached, but those wanting to compete at the highest levels probably don't see it as the only form of competitive cycling they want to focus on, outside of the Olympics it's profile isn't really high enough to support a dedicated racing career anymore, there's not enough money or exposure in it...
Most of the regular top 10 seem to be making a decent go of it. The regular top 5 probably won’t have to work again once they call it quits in their mid 30s.
Problem is that a world class xc racer can be taught to be a grand tour domestique pretty easily to someone who wants to sell their body for 10 times the money.
I also got a chuckle out of the women’s race where Keller and Lill (mtb purists) dropped the hammer on Puck the second they realised she had a flat in the most un-roadie-like way possible. Good tactics in itself but I like to think they got to show their disdain for PP jumping ship
So MvdP and Pidcock are only the best in the world when they actually turn up to races? What are they during the races they choose to skip (which is the majority of them)?
And what about the XC skiers, or rowers, or speed skaters that don't turn up either?
They might have turned up and crashed, they might have turned up and punctured, they might have turned up and had a bad day.
But they didn't turn up, ergo they weren't XC racers that day, ergo they weren't the best XC racer in the world that day.
And what about the XC skiers, or rowers, or speed skaters that don't turn up either?
Which top level XC riders don't turn up to WC races because they are skiing, rowing, or skating instead?
They might have turned up and crashed, they might have turned up and punctured, they might have turned up and had a bad day.
Yep, all things that can happen in a race that can be mitigated through training or technical/mechanical preparation. Increasing the technical skill requirements of racers and the requirements on the bikes themselves is a good way to create a barrier that forces all competitors to focus more on the discipline.
XC racing isn't just a 'turn up on the day and win' thing. Or rather, if it wants to be seen as a legitimate elite level discipline then it shouldn't be possible to just turn up and win. Or even just turn up and qualify.
Maybe this disagreement comes down to a question of what XC racing should be. For years it was seen as road racing on dirt. There have definitely been people who tried and failed to qualify for the Olympic road race and ended up doing the XC as it was much easier to qualify for. I think there has maybe been some moves for XC to make itself its own thing, within the limits of what the Olympics will allow for it to still be an Olympic event.
And once again, I don't want to not see any road/CX riders at XC races. I just want the discipline to be sufficiently different from road/CX that you can't jump into XC with limited focus and preparation and expect to win. Or even qualify.
The fact they are still competitive starting from so far behind is not a good look for XC racing, imo.Maybe the "best riders in the world" should go and train properly then?
What are they during the races they choose to skip (which is the majority of them)?Errrr, they'll be getting paid better.
The salary drop off between a potential WC XCO winner and a "solid top 20 performer" is gargantuan compared to the difference between similar roles on the road, even though there's really limited comparison as MTB isn't a team sport. There are top domestiques probably getting paid double or triple what a solid, dependable WC XCO top 20 finisher is. And they aren't even being paid to finish.
I just want the discipline to be sufficiently different from road/CX that you can't jump into XC with limited focus and preparation and expect to win. Or even qualify.Can't really be done, unless you turn it into downhill, where skill/stupidity/blindness to potential for life changing injury is *everything*. And FWIW, the vast majority of those doing WC/Elite level XC will be training extensively on the road or road like riding. (Christ, a lot of DH racers do similar).
Also, don't fancy a massed start on a course that technically challenging.
This whole thing sounds a lot like gatekeeping to me.
This whole thing sounds a lot like gatekeeping to me.
Only if you consider downhill to be gatekept.
In a sense it is because the level of skill, equipment, and preparation is such that no one who doesn't focus exclusively on DH is likely to even qualify, let alone win.
The fact that XC doesn't have those barriers mean that it's always going to be seen as a bit second rate.
If everyone is cool with XC racing being seen as second rate road/CX racing then that's fine, I guess. But no one sees DH as a second rate anything.
Can't really be done, unless you turn it into downhill, where skill/stupidity/blindness to potential for life changing injury is *everything*.
Within the current Olympic guidelines, probably not.
XC courses are incredibly man made compared to DH or Enduro. Perhaps there is some scope to increase the naturalness of the courses and require a higher level of I guess what we would call general MTB skills. Instead there seems to have been a trend to make big scary looking features that have high consequences for getting it wrong without necessarily increasing the technical skill requirements.
Saying all that, there does seem to be a bit of a buzz about short travel trail bikes lately. ie, bikes with more 'trail' geometry but with only 100-120mm travel. I really want to try something like this and from what I'm reading they are surprisingly capable on trails people have been assuming you need a minimum of 160mm travel to ride.
We'll see what happens, I guess.
It doesn't have those barriers, because putting barriers like that in stops it being XC.The fact that XC doesn't have those barriers mean that it's always going to be seen as a bit second rate.
And it's going to remain second rate because the money isn't good enough for enough riders to focus on it exclusively.
Yeah that's called Enduro.
I can't see in world in where I agree with any of your last sets of posts on here. Just because someone can do more than 1 thing doesn't make it wrong.
I kind of agree with BruceWee, it does make XC look a bit second-best if roadies can just saunter in and claim a podium whenever they feel like a change of scene.
But. Is there actually enough money in XC to make a pure XC focus a viable career option, excepting a very few? Looks like a 10th place finish at a world cup round will net you about £1k in prize money. I don't know how good team salaries are, but you'd need a significant income from sponsorship and coaching etc to cover your expenses and make that into something vaguely liveable.
When you say "Roadies" you mean 2 men and 1 woman, in the whole world. Plenty of roadies have come into both CX and XC and done poorly. VdP is a generational talent on a bike who destroys races in whatever he races, not because XC is easy, but because he has 1000w to play with. Pidcock is again an exception, but he was a MTBer before a roadie...
If you think back to the early days of enduro it was kind of seen as the semi-retirement stage of a DH racers career. As it grew the demands on riders became greater and greater until it wasn't possible for DH racers to just turn up and win. Enduro went from being seen as second rate compared to DH to being a respected discipline in it's own right. And then to whatever the hell it is today.
You get people switching between Enduro and DH (perhaps with some Red Bull Rampage thrown in for good measure) and you get people switching between XC, CX, and Road.
Perhaps that's just the way it's going to be as it's not possible to move XC a bit closer to Enduro so that it's no longer possible to easily make the jump from CX or Road.
Saying that, if I was an XC race organiser I'd be at least a little worried about gravel racing. The last gravel race I watched looked amazing following the racers through Italian vineyards.
Although it's all academic now given I'm not watching nearly as much cycling since GCN shut up shop.
Plenty of roadies have come into both CX and XC and done poorly.
Just out of interest, which riders are you thinking of here when it comes to XC?
You get people switching between Enduro and DH (perhaps with some Red Bull Rampage thrown in for good measure) and you get people switching between XC, CX, and Road.
Perhaps that's just the way it's going to be as it's not possible to move XC a bit closer to Enduro so that it's no longer possible to easily make the jump from CX or Road.
Saying that, if I was an XC race organiser I'd be at least a little worried about gravel racing. The last gravel race I watched looked amazing following the racers through Italian vineyards.
I think there is a bit more to come in the rad-ifying of XC. If that pushes some riders to gravel racing or even trying their hand on the road, then I'll happily seee them go.
There's a longstanding (and maybe historically accurate) feeling that XC is dirt-roadying* but the off road skills and tactics are the decider these days. This is best seen when one of the top riders has a mechanical and has to fight their way back to the front. If it was purely fitness then they would never get back, as their rivals at the fornt would be able to match them. But having a short term goal to get back on, they can step it up a notch and ride past the 20-30 ranked riders like they are nothing. Putting out a kilowatt is no good if you cant manage the rear wheel over off camber roots while you do it, or hold the speed through the next corner - and that seems to be what vdp has forgotten.
*the dirt roadies still exist, getting in the way of midpack amateurs downhill because they are disproportionally good at climbing - but in the pro field I think they are long gone.
...there does seem to be a bit of a buzz about short travel trail bikes lately. ie, bikes with more 'trail' geometry but with only 100-120mm travel. I really want to try something like this and from what I'm reading they are surprisingly capable on trails people have been assuming you need a minimum of 160mm travel to ride.
I've said before that I think the next gen of XC bikes are going to be the pinnacle of non-electric bikes. (With the exception of the small niche of lift served downhill) a bike that handles and is strong enough for what people today are using "trail bikes" for - thats going to be the level self powered riders are going to want, if they are also having to climb on them - and also making flat/traverse trails fun.