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OK, off the top of my heah Joshua Dubau, awesome in XC, average in CX.
Tim Merlier is incredible on the road, but not as incredible in CX.
Alan Hatherley for example, incredible in XC, but not quite hitting it at road...
I could google and find loads more over various years, but well, it's not quite as cut and dried as "anyone can..."
Vermeersch (both) , Arensman, Stybar.
Then of course you've got riders like Nys who who do road pretty well and CX pretty well.
As for damaging his 2025 TDF? Meh,
Yep I am fairly sure MVdP has done levtour the last two years because his team sponsors want him to, he just uses it as a training block to build for the Worlds...does this make le tour a joke, like when he swans into an xc race? Of course not.
does this make le tour a joke, like when he swans into an xc race? Of course not
Yes, when your sponsors are pressuring you to do a particular race that generally suggests the race isn't a joke.
I somehow doubt MvdP and Pidcock's sponsors are pressuring them to take part in mountain bike races. The possible exception might be an Olympic year, but even then I'm pretty sure sponsors would prefer a decent show in the TdF.
but even then I'm pretty sure sponsors would prefer a decent show in the TdF.
For a rider of his talent the last two le tours have been ridiculously poor.
I think/thought that Van der Poel was after an mtb world chaps shirt to make a better "set"
Whether he'll ever come back again is debatable but I bet if he won the WC he'd be much less likely to come back
... except that just maybe his sponsors want overall profile rather than just attendance at road races that he can't really do much "more" with - road fans know his qualities and the classics are where he really belongs and shines. A few more grand tour stages isn't really going to change much there as he's MASSIVE already in that audience's eyes. Same with cross.
I don't want to not see any road/CX riders at XC races. I just want the discipline to be sufficiently different from road/CX that you can't jump into XC with limited focus and preparation and expect to win. Or even qualify.
This just makes no sense though? I think there are only 2 riders that are getting you upset. Pidcock is better at technical xc riding than pretty much all of the field. Especially in the wet. Fluckiger maybe bit faster but takes more risks i don't think its control / skill advantage? So how will you make a course that excludes him from strong chance of winning? Probably a flat non technical one is what you'd need for that.
Mvdp alright hes had his crash but if you make it too hard for him its still not a big enough group that remain competitive. Hes decent enough on his bike especially given his size / power
These guys are both mtbers that like riding mtbs, are good at it and do it regularly. Especially Pidcock
It seems like you don't actually follow any of the xc racing and you've just read some headlines and got the wrong impression?
This just makes no sense though? I think there are only 2 riders that are getting you upset. Pidcock is better at technical xc riding than pretty much all of the field. Especially in the wet. Fluckiger maybe bit faster but takes more risks i don't think its control / skill advantage? So how will you make a course that excludes him from strong chance of winning? Probably a flat non technical one is what you'd need for that.
Well, yes, that's the question I've been asking. How can a rider whose main focus is not mtb be able to not only blow the field away in terms of power but also be on a par (or even a level above) in the required tech skills.
Pidcock has said he wants to do Downhill racing and MvdP has said he wants to try Enduro. The fact they haven't shows that there is something about these disciplines that would make the jump from their bread and butter to big.
As mentioned above, XC has always had a reputation as being for dirt roadies. The town I was living in ten years ago had a mountain bike group but their mountain biking was probably at least 40% tarmac and 60% on unsealed roads. These were the guys riding what you would call XC race bikes and you would see them out and about everywhere.
Nowadays there are fewer and fewer of these types of bikes around as anyone who was riding XC bikes is now riding gravel bikes and it suits their needs much better.
What you are starting to see (although the emphasis is definitely 'starting') is people on shorter travel trail bikes. Still hitting the same lines they were on their bigger bikes but having more fun (so they say and it definitely makes sense).
A push for XC courses that require bikes with more trail geometry wouldn't be a bad thing for us consumers, I reckon, in terms of available bike geometries. Hopefully without just putting in more and bigger moderate tech, high consequence artificial features
It seems like you don't actually follow any of the xc racing and you've just read some headlines and got the wrong impression?
Yep, I haven't watched any XC since GCN shut down. Unless it's MvdP going up against Tom Pidcock (and preferably without both of them having to start 6 rows back) then it's difficult to really see it as an 'occasion'.
This is not an issue in DH. There has never been a race where a top contender hasn't shown up because they are too busy riding motocross.
That's like asking how Lamin Yamal can be so amazing at 17 or Littler be the best in the world at 17 in Darts etc, because they're not the normal, they're the exceptions. Every now and again someone comes along on the planet who's simply better than the rest. Whether they cross-over into other aspects doesn't really come into it. There's very few sports where a cross-over is possible because there's rarely multi-disciplines within a sport. Would it be baffling if someone in skiing could do slalom and Super G really well, no, because it's a variation on a theme.
XC racing may be 'different' in terms of tech skills, but it comes down a lot to power and fitness, both of which VdP and Pidcock have a plenty. They don't NEED to be the best in terms of descents, but it helps they're pretty handy of course.
I don't understand why it's so weird to you. Martin Maes and Ritchie Rude did amazingly at DH last week in Poland, should that not be possible? Well of course it should, I see it in juniors week in week out, a kid comes into a race who no-one has seen, destroys most and then you look at his results, he's been destroying Enduro races as well... It's a cross-over of skills.
Look at riders like Hattie Harnden, won everything at XC, then won everything at Enduro and now is flying in DH... using your logic that shouldn't be possible either.
But the fact there are Enduro riders who can also ride Downhill and Downhill riders who can also ride Enduro kind of proves my point.
There are no riders who are primarily Downhill who, every so often, turn up at an Enduro race and everyone expects them to win. Likewise, there are no Enduro racers who are expected to win when their schedule allows them to do a Downhill race.
That's not to say that riders can't switch focus and go from being primarily Downhill riders to primarily being Enduro riders and vice versa. The skillset is similar enough that a tweak in training and focus means they can be competitive in both. But again, generally not at the same time (Martin Maes being the exception that proves the rule and his win still came as something of a surprise and hasn't been repeated since).
MvdP and Pidcock do not have to switch focus. They are primarily road racers (or CX racers during the winter) who win XC races when their schedule allows.
And that is why XC is seen as second rate compared to road while Enduro isn't seen as second rate compared to DH (or rather, it wasn't when it was still relevant).
If you are quite happy having XC, CX, and Road in one competitive group and DH and Enduro in another then that's fine. I, on the other hand, would like to see XC move away from road and more towards Enduro.
But that's a personal preference and I completely understand if others have other preferences.
But the fact there are Enduro riders who can also ride Downhill and Downhill riders who can also ride Enduro kind of proves my point.
MAybe in your opinion. It feels to me like you're bringing your political standpoint of "i'm right and you're wrong" to this debate as well, which mostly stops it being a debate.
I honestly can't see how you can make XC more Enduro without it being Enduro. The courses, the tech, the terrain are already massively harder than anything that used to exist. 20 years ago the XC course of was a DH course 🙂
XC is see as second rate by who ? You ? Not anyone else, not the people who pay the money, go to the races, get sponsors, pay salaries more than DH.
One big thing you're forgetting is MONEY. VdP, Pidcock, WvA can earn a good chunk of wages when there's no road stuff on in CX season. With DH and Enduro often being on the same weekend, a rider can't do both. Hence why things like the Tasmania races etc are getting more popular along with the Red Bull Cerro Abajo races which are run at a time when DH racing isn't on. But you can't expect a Bruni to skip a DH weekend to earn less money just to prove a point.
while Enduro isn't seen as second rate compared to DH (or rather, it wasn't when it was still relevant).
What ???? i mean really .... WHAT ? Even when Enduro was at it's peak it was the bas7ard step-child of DH at best... now it barely exists outside of pinkbike articles.
(yes that saddens me as i love an Enduro event to watch)
MAybe in your opinion. It feels to me like you're bringing your political standpoint of "i'm right and you're wrong" to this debate as well, which mostly stops it being a debate.
Honestly, the last thing I said in my post was that this is how I see it, this would be my preference, and I understand if others have a different opinion and preference.
The reason I keep replying is because it honestly feels that people are not understanding what I am trying to say. I get examples and explanations that really seem to be arguing against a different point than the one I'm trying to make.
I honestly can't see how you can make XC more Enduro without it being Enduro. The courses, the tech, the terrain are already massively harder than anything that used to exist. 20 years ago the XC course of was a DH course 🙂
The current format of XC races has been much the same for the last 30 years. And being an Olympic sport means the format is very important which means that XC racing is very limited in how it can evolve in relation to what the wider mountain biking community is doing.
Like I said, most of the people I used to see on XC bikes ten years ago are now riding gravel bikes. In addition, we are seeing more and more technically capable short travel bikes becoming available.
It's always a bit chicken and egg. Do race formats exist because of the available equipment or is the current available equipment dictated by the most popular race formats. Or a little of both.
The increase in tech that I've seen in XC has often come from high consequence features that look spectacular but without necessarily needing top level technical skills, if that makes sense.
I think XC could benefit from looking at some of the DH and Enduro courses. I'd like to see more wide taping on freshly cut areas of forest. It seems like XC values a predictable course over changeable terrain, which is always going to tend toward high consequence single features.
What ???? i mean really .... WHAT ? Even when Enduro was at it's peak it was the bas7ard step-child of DH at best... now it barely exists outside of pinkbike articles.
I think that's unfair. Even just looking at the PB salary surveys it seems like Enduro riders were at a minimum on the same salaries as DH racers. Maybe even a bit more.
And again, there was no one who was primarily a DH racer who you would think, 'If xxxx was at this race they would win.'
At its peak I'd say interest in Enduro was on a par with DH. Obviously the way it was consumed was different as it didn't lend itself to live viewing but people were definitely following it and I don't think the riders from either discipline so the other as 'less than'.
How can a rider whose main focus is not mtb be able to not only blow the field away in terms of power but also be on a par (or even a level above) in the required tech skills.
Because they have more talent, bucket loads more talent.
If half the xc MTB field had the talent to get paid more on the road they would. I think you are looking at it the wrong way round though. MVdP and TP are off-road racers who have switched to road to increase earnings, so has Wout Van Aert but he only did cross not MTB..I really do t see why it's an issue.
If half the xc MTB field had the talent to get paid more on the road they would.
This is exactly my point. It is not a good look if half the field is only doing it because they aren't good enough for Road.
At the moment Road, CX, and XC exist on one track. Enduro and Downhill on another. Many riders switch within these tracks but very few make the jump between them. And if they do they are unlikely to be making that jump multiple times per season. MvdP and Pidcock have said they'd like to race Enduro and DH but they haven't so clearly there is something stopping them.
What I, (me personally and other opinions are certainly valid) would like to see is XC evolve so that the parallel tracks are more Road/CX on one track and XC/Enduro/DH on another (and before anyone says anything, no, I don't want to see any artificial barriers, just a natural grouping that is different to the natural grouping we currently have).
In terms of the wider sport, gravel has taken one chunk of the traditional XC bike rider market while more capable short travel trail bikes could take another.
If it doesn't evolve XC could become a sort of weird throwback that only exists because it's a second tier Olympic category and doesn't really bear much resemblance to what the wider community is doing.
Isn't there also a sort of acceleration of fitness and training if you're able to make the cut and go pro-roadie? I.e. take someone of maybe midpack technical ability on an XC mountainbike and apply years of professional CX and Road training and salary, and suddenly you've got a world-beater?
I'd assumed that was the case with MvdP and Tom Pidcock, i.e. already very very good MTBers (TP more so?) who went pro roadie and got exponentially fitter, which in MvdP's case might make up for technical rustiness and in TP's case just means he can storm from the back of the field to winning.
And for what it's worth, I've always felt XC was stuck in some weird in-between status, modern tracks just seem too contrived (even more so that CX tracks which is a weird thing to say, but at least CX revels in the deterioration of a track in adverse conditions). I want to see CX races that look like an hour of the HT550! 🤣
Bruce - it will never transition into your two separate parallel paths of xc/dh/enduro and road/CX.
The fitness needed to race xc needs lots of road miles, so there will always be crossover on that front as the training is complimentary. Training off road is great and is in the mix, but it is too varied to get the sustained riding at x level for x time to get the structured fitness gains. If you make the courses more technical, then you need fitness even more (because you still have to pedal up and recover to do your super technical dh bits).
Also do the maths - being faster on the slow bits (uphill) makes more difference to a lap time than being faster on the fast (dh) bits.
And nowadays, your average "recreational" mtber seems to be on an ebike, so I'm not sure why xc racing has to change or will ever appeal to them.
At National level, the names I recognise from xc also appear in CX, gravel and enduro.
MvDP was already a talented roadie / cx rider who decided to try xco rather than “…already very very good MTBers…who went pro roadie and got exponentially fitter”. His early palmares is littered with road and cx wins and he rode the junior worlds road race
At the moment Road, CX, and XC exist on one track. Enduro and Downhill on another
XC is already on the same track as DH & Enduro - the track of cycling sports that nobody watches and that’s possibly why half the field is only doing it because they aren't good enough for road. 😉
Bruce - it will never transition into your two separate parallel paths of xc/dh/enduro and road/CX.
As long as XC is an Olympic discipline I would agree. The requirements of Olympic courses really limit the freedom to fully take advantage of things like 'Downcountry' bikes (or whatever they are called this week).
The current 'single line' sculpted style of downhill and tech on XC tracks means that even if you were able to go significantly faster than someone else on the downs it wouldn't do you any good if you were stuck behind them with no way of passing.
But if short travel trail bikes continue to get more popular and develop eventually some people are going to want to race them on an appropriate track so perhaps a new discipline will start to emerge.
Like I said at the start of the thread, a sort of 4X but you do laps and pedal to the top.
This is exactly my point. It is not a good look if half the field is only doing it because they aren't good enough for Road.
Most of the field races xc because they chose mountain biking, like racing off road and it suits their skillset. If they wanted to do road they would. If they weren't good enough they would find a career outside of cycling.
Riding and watching lycra clad XC as we know it now and how it has been for a good while remains popular in europe, africa, central/latin america and other places. The UK is the outlier.
Isn't there also a sort of acceleration of fitness and training if you're able to make the cut and go pro-roadie?
I presume the difference is largely going to be from being a pro MTBer which often just means working elsewhere in the industry and racing at weekends, to being able to ride 40 hours a week. And the inevitable step up in professionalism with things like coaches, physios, chefs etc employed by the team, not just on an ad-hock basis.
Most of the field races xc because they chose mountain biking, like racing off road and it suits their skillset. If they wanted to do road they would.
I'm not so sure about that. Sam Gaze is an example of a top level mountain biker (World Cup wins, 2x short track and marathon World Champion) who is passionate about Road racing but has really struggled to break into it.
Riding and watching lycra clad XC as we know it now and how it has been for a good while remains popular in europe, africa, central/latin america and other places. The UK is the outlier.
Ten years ago I would probably have agreed with you. Now, however, while I used to see loads of people on XC mountain bikes riding unpaved roads, now the vast majority of these type of riders are on gravel bikes.
I'm mean, they've always been 'gravel bikers' but where they used to call themselves mountain bikers they now call themselves gravel bikers.
It's a small shift but it can't have done much for the demand for traditional XC race bikes.
Bruce. You really don't get the maths. In a circuit race, you have the same amount of height gain / loss each lap. No matter how open and free choice the dh bit, the fittest and reasonably technically ok guy will still lap faster (short of offering two line choices - ride off a cliff Vs zigzag 20 times across the hillside). I understand you'd like to see an open choice of dh lines, but it will make little difference to who wins.
MvDP was already a talented roadie / cx rider who decided to try xco rather than “…already very very good MTBers…who went pro roadie and got exponentially fitter”. His early palmares is littered with road and cx wins and he rode the junior worlds road race
D'oh, yeah, I sort of mangled the point I was trying to make there. With respect to MvdP I meant it's more a case of someone who was already 'good' at XC but due to being a pro roadie could layer on top of that a huge amount of fitness and access to all the training and resource that being a pro roadie brings. Not that he went from Pro XC to Pro road and back.
I presume the difference is largely going to be from being a pro MTBer which often just means working elsewhere in the industry and racing at weekends, to being able to ride 40 hours a week.
Well that's what I was wondering, I figured pro road teams would have much bigger budget and resource for training athletes, as opposed to pro XC teams. So even as someone who already had access to all the resources that a professional XC racer has, could benefit hugely by getting access to pro road team resources?
But if we're talking about people making a joke of things, what about Pogacar? Evidently there still physiological gifts or training methods out there that can make one pro-roadie make the rest of them look like amateurs, or of course MvdP vs. the rest when it comes to CX...
t's a small shift but it can't have done much for the demand for traditional XC race bikes.
Until people realise that most of their gravel is better ridden on a fast XC bike 🤣 (a conclusion I've been resisting for years but have suddenly come around to).
Until people realise that most of their gravel is better ridden on a fast XC bike 🤣 (a conclusion I've been resisting for years but have suddenly come around to).
Must be why gravel bikes are slowly turning into mountain bikes. Various top gravel racers are on full size xc race tyres now. Have heard full suspension gravel frames are coming this year too.
Bruce. You really don't get the maths. In a circuit race, you have the same amount of height gain / loss each lap. No matter how open and free choice the dh bit, the fittest and reasonably technically ok guy will still lap faster (short of offering two line choices - ride off a cliff Vs zigzag 20 times across the hillside). I understand you'd like to see an open choice of dh lines, but it will make little difference to who wins.
I understand that the vast majority of the time is spent climbing.
However, what I don't think you understand is just how much energy can actually be saved by people who are technically exceptional vs technically proficient. That energy then benefits them then entire way up the next climb.
This is all assuming the track is sufficiently natural.
As it is today an XC course has to basically finish the weekend in much the same condition as it starts. DH courses change from run to run. Once an XC racer has learned the course then the benefits to someone who is technically exceptional are much reduced.
It could turn out you are 100% correct but I'm generally of the opinion things should be tried out before stating with 100% confidence what will or won't happen.
Must be why gravel bikes are slowly turning into mountain bikes. Various top gravel racers are on full size xc race tyres now. Have heard full suspension gravel frames are coming this year too.
Don't forget that while all this is happening Road bikes are gradually turning into Gravel bikes.
What are road tyres up to now? 32mm?
Pidcock has said he wants to do Downhill racing and MvdP has said he wants to try Enduro. The fact they haven't shows that there is something about these disciplines that would make the jump from their bread and butter to big.Yes, there's no money and no publicity in either compared to road, or, to be quite frank, CX (especially in the cycling heartlands where at least MVdP is based.)
Yes, there's no money and no publicity in either compared to road, or, to be quite frank, CX (especially in the cycling heartlands where at least MVdP is based.)
I think VDP is purely interested in a rainbow jersey (to complete his set) or olympic medal (he's already 30, its likely he's got one olympics left at the top of his form, if the 2028 olympic road course doesn't suit him then mtb is his best chance to get one)
Either of those are good publicity. Random XCO wins, probably not.