[Closed] MTBing hijacked by the big money brigade ?

We did, at full workshop rates,

Unfortunately, quality has suffered; even top-end componentry isn't as well made/made form as good quality materials as previous kit

I'm no road-expect but my Ultegra 6800 is dog shit. Plastic, flimsy-feeling but worse still- it shifts clunkingly. Even my old SRAM and 2002 XTR combo was noticeably smoother.

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My 2002 XTR rear mech gave up just last month..

stoffel - Member

Unfortunately, quality has suffered; even top-end componentry isn't as well made/made form as good quality materials as previous kit.

There's probably some truth in that, I've got an old mountain exage mech in the garage which is still going strong, today's XTR isn't likely to be going in 20 years or whatever. But at the same time, this is partly the desire for lightness, that one's made of bricks. And frankly a shift in desirability- most people seem to want performance today over durability, we don't often expect bikes to last a decade

My '96 XTR rear mech is still doing sterling duty on my CX bike. Mind you the main pivot did seize after 3 years due to corrosion but some disassembly and polishing fixed that and it's been fine since.

I agree that some components aren't as durable now but as said, that's the price for lighter weight.

Would I like a 5K+ superbike? Yes.
Can I justify one? No.
Would it markedly make my riding more enjoyable? Probably not, as I'm finding riding a rigid 29er a hoot round my way.

That being said I would really like a Chromag 29er, but will probably end up with a On-One Parkwood in a year or so.

Would I like a 5K+ superbike?

I'd worry about it, its condition, the Peaks gritstone, the rockstrikes, how I store it in the car, the chance it could be pinched from the car etc.

Mountain biking in the UK (outside of most trail centres) is hard wear and tear on kit.

Would I like a 5k+road bike

[u][b]YESSSS PLEASE[/b][/u]

Unfortunately, quality has suffered; even top-end componentry isn't as well made/made form as good quality materials as previous kit.

Can you back this up? Not a slight - I'm genuinely interested. I ride a reasonable amount, have worked in the trade and as a guide, but haven't noticed a massive deteriation in product build/material quality.

Manufacturers want you to keep spending, so they introduce new standards all the time, and market new 'features', but the kit itself isn't all that good.

Things like the Aheadset? Early versions weren't too hot, but the logic behind it is sound. Similarly tapered headtubes - PITA if you're riding a frame with a 'regular' headtube, but it's the bottom race in a headset that takes the pounding. Makes sense to make it a better load-bearing structure.

There are a lot of 'standards' of debatable merit, but I do believe that, on the whole, most new standards offer some sort of improvement. For instance, I love HT2 bottom brackets compared to HT1 or tapered, but I am looking forward to a standard that has decent sized bearings inside a more weather-resistant unit.

Practicalyy all the bike mechanics I know say that newr stuff wears out/breaks more quickly, and needs replacing more often.

But does it perform better?

Isn't anyone from the "big money brigade" going to contribute here?

All getting a bit one-sided.

chakaping - Member
Isn't anyone from the "big money brigade" going to contribute here?

All getting a bit one-sided.

Anyway global market people your currency is shit!

We all run XX1 and all that gubbins here on our pub bikes you poor pikey gits!

Isn't anyone from the "big money brigade" going to contribute here?
All getting a bit one-sided.

*Sticks head above parapet* *again*

You called?

*Sticks head above parapet* *again*

You called?

Are you the guy with two new carbon Santa Cruz? You'll do!

Back to the original question - shouldn't it be more like "Is MTB having a shot at the big-money brigade"? Since it's not compulsory to spunk £5k on a so-called "superbike" and we've established that there are some great budget bikes around.

If anything my tastes are getting less refined, having seen how good current SLX kit is.

Well I do have a couple of £5K bikes but also a steel framed one with CANTILEVER brakes so I guess that cancels them out.

If anything my tastes are getting less refined, having seen how good current SLX kit is.

As said on page 1 - I'm on Deore (and an SLX clutch mech).

My 9spd XT / XTR was sold at the weekend. 😕

Can you back this up? Not a slight - I'm genuinely interested.

Well, it's based on empirical evidence, rather than 'scientific' tests, but the consensus is that older kit lasts longer, and newer stuff seems to wear out/break quite quicly . I have original M900 XTR mechs that have seen over 20 years use, yet newer M960- stuff seems not to have lasted that long at all before having worn out pivots etc. My XTR M950 shifters and rear mech are stll goingstrong,but I've known people who've had more recent kit wear out within 2-3 years. A pair of recent XT shifters (ca. 2010) laste me just 18 months before wearing out. And of course square taper v HT2 bbs. The later beingmeasured in terms of months of longevity, compared to possibly even decades for the former. Shimano et al don't want you to keep your stuff runningfor 20+ years,they want you to buy new stuff every 2 or 3.

But does it perform better?

In 'real world' use; maybe for a short time, before it starts to wear out. Stuff like aheadset; maybe more conveneint for servicing. But a properly serviced old Cmapag/Dura Ace headset can and do run for decades. Many of us aren't all that interested in thelatest shiny gadgets; we want our bikes to perform relaibly for a long time. A lot of current kit isn't designed to do that.

Not sure whether to comment or not on this thread. But I guess my bike would be classed as a 'big money' bike. Its an Ibis mojo HD, and I guess it cost about £5k in total, although its been upgraded over the years to get to this point, rather than just being a single £5k purchase. Theres no 'justifiable' reason for buying a top end bike, unless you're a pro, people buy them because they want one, and they can afford it, so why not?

Is it better than a bike costing half as much? probably, but not by much, its certainly not twice as good, you're definitely into diminishing return territory once you get past the mid range bikes, whatever they are.

My first full suss was a specialised enduro, bought in 2005 for £1700 in the sales, I've still got it, in fact I'm riding it tonight because the Mojo is broken. Its just as capable as the mojo going downhill, but its a bit tougher uphill because its heavier and bobs a lot.

I started on a £300 claud butler in the mid 90's , back then I thought that was a lot of money to spend on a bike, but there were loads of people riding round on 2-3k bikes back then, and I thought they were crazy to spend that on a bike. I couldnt afford to spend that on a bike back then, but now I can, so I have , why not? may as well spend it on things you enjoy, cant take it with you.

Its not like there arent any good bike for under a grand, people can still buy good bikes for reasonable money, it just that now I think there is more choice at the upper end.

For what its worth, if I was replacing the mojo now, I'd probably go for the mid range YT capra, what does that cost ~£2k? its probably slightly better than my mojo at what I'd want it to do and costs half as much.

Many years ago, back hen goalposts were made of knitted wool, it used to be the case that one of the advantages of buying top end kit like XTR was that it was fully rebuildable

that was, of course, [i]if[/i] the importer ever had the spares in stock...

That really was MANY years ago. XTR from the mid 90s certainly isn't rebuildable.

Guilty 🙂 also have a very nice road bike of comparable value to aforementioned SC's. (For balance, I also have a secondhand single speed inbred and a trek 1.5 that still get ridden so it's not all hyperbling bikes 😉 )

Though I would say I'm probably not your typical 'big money brigade' type. I earn the national average wage*, don't own a car (or even have a drivers licence, though this will change in due course) and I'm a lodger in a friends house. I also don't have a family to provide for.

I've always had nice bikes relative to my income, MTBing, and more recently road, has been a massive part of my life for the last 15 years, so why shouldn't i have the nicest of the nice? It's not like I'm Jonny Stockbroker who has read an article in a fashion mag, gone down to his nearest bicycle emporium and asked for the most expensive one *cough*Gary Kemp*cough* though it's his money, and his to spend how he pleases.

*in case you're wondering how I have the bikes I do on the wage I earn, it's nothing to do with it. Earlier this year I inherited a considerable amount of money that I barely knew what to do with, aside from what bikes to buy.

So, there you have it. My flameproof suit is donned, do your worst.

people buy them because they want one, and they can afford it, so why not?

I can 'afford' it, but I just don't see the point. A super expensive bike wouldn't get ridden as much as my tattyold hybrid, so it would be a bit of a waste of money. Just because you can, doen't necessarily mean you should. Nothing wrong with having nice things, but not all of us are so materialistic. One day I'll get myself round to having a nice custom frame made, that's about the only real indulgence I'd think worthwhile. Otherwis it's a bit like just going and buying the latest top end BMW, when you could have bought a lovely old Lamborghini etc. Just because something's expensive, doesn't mean it's 'special'. And 'special' need not cost a fortune.

Having nice things doesn't make you materialistic. Believing that things are more important than people and other aspects of life makes you materialistic.

so it would be a bit of a waste of money. Just because you can, doen't necessarily mean you should.

Lucky we've got you to define absolutely what is an isn't acceptable.

Lucky we've got you to define absolutely what is an isn't acceptable.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. I just don't personally see the point of going and buying something 'bling' off the shelf, just because you 'can'. Where's the funin that? Unless you're just buying it to show off, then that's a bit pathetic. If you spent £7k ona bike you ride every day, then fantastic. I know a guy who's spent thousands on fishing gear, but he fishes every weekend, rain or shine, so fair enough.

I can 'afford' it, but I just don't see the point. A super expensive bike wouldn't get ridden as much as my tattyold hybrid, so it would be a bit of a waste of money

and thats great for you, nobody is forcing you to buy an expensive bike.

Conversely , mine gets ridden whenever I have a few spare hours (which isnt as often as I'd like, but is as often as it can be), and so far kept for 4 years, so in my situation I consider it an acceptable use of my money. Its not about being materialistic either, Its literally about it being at the time and in my opinion (and when I'm spending the money only my opinion matters) the best bike I could afford, doesnt matter if its only a little bit better than something costing half the price, for me, it was what I wanted, I could afford it, so why not? At the time I could have spent even more and got something that was better than the mojo, but I decided that where I would draw the line was with the bike I bought, you decided your line was with the bike you bought, and the chap who inherited his money above decided the line was with the bike he bought.

good job the bike manufacturers realise this, and make bikes for all budgets, tastes and disciplines.

My £200 hybrid gets ridden more than any of my bikes but it's also kind of supremely fit for purpose so it'd be daft to spend more. That doesn't deter me from spending that much on haribo alone for my mountain biking.

of course,

...v brakes...

i remember saving up for, and buying, and excitedly fitting a set of dia-compe something-or-others.

they were completely crap, but they were very light, and looked beautiful!

edit:

986's?

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sigh, brakes were[s]brakes[/s] crap back then.

four Bloody Pages!?

Right then!

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I built a fairly expensive full-sus up earlier this year. It gets ridden most days and goes for a couple of proper rides each week. I hired a similar but not as nice Canyon Spectral last week in Mallorca and the difference in the suspension's abilities was vast - Fox 'Evolution' vs Pike and Cane Creek - worth every penny of the extra cost!

Something lighter, more carbon, more custom, etc might cost a ton more but functional improvements would be marginal at best. But if you have the money, why not? It's a fraction of the cost of even the depreciation on a fancy car and unless you're one of those (possibly mythical?) trail centre posers at least mountain bikes get used for their intended purpose, unlike every off-roader that never gets its tyres dirty or every supercar that is permanently stuck in urban traffic!

Well, it's based on empirical evidence, rather than 'scientific' tests, but the consensus is that older kit lasts longer, and newer stuff seems to wear out/break quite quicly . I have original M900 XTR mechs that have seen over 20 years use, yet newer M960- stuff seems not to have lasted that long at all before having worn out pivots etc.

Serious questions - are you riding more? Or are you riding more in more challenging terrain? One thing I have noticed is that people are riding stuff now on 'regular' bikes that 10 years ago would have been the sole realm of a 'downhill' bike. We're also riding faster, because equipment is more forgiving and we can stop faster. To counter your above point, I'd suggest that all this wears kit out faster.

Although how you're wearing out shifters is beyond me... 😉

Shimano et al don't want you to keep your stuff runningfor 20+ years,they want you to buy new stuff every 2 or 3.

There's undoubtedly truth in that. To remain in business they need to fulfil a need. However, our purchasing power also funds R&D, which has given us the massively better bikes we have today, compared to those of 15 years ago. I also don't believe that the bike industry is as bad as something like the washing machine industry, where products have a cycle lifespan built in (I find it amazing - and a little scary - we have the technology to be able to model this and put it into production).

I for one like kit that can be serviced and rebuilt. There's a place for it on pieces such as hubs and headsets, but on drivetrains it's of arguable need as to make it sustainable, you'd have to sell it. To make it worthwhile it'd need to be of decent quality, plus you'd need to produce spares - all great so far. Even if people bought the mech, ran it and kept it going - which is brilliant - what happens when standards change (which they will)? OK, you can make a new cage / spring / whatever, but to stay afloat it will need to be sold at a price that can help do that - my guess is, on a small production scale, that it won't be cheap.

Alternatively you can buy a Deore mech that'll last two years and work brilliantly.

As I said, I love the idea of rebuildable kit in the bike industry, but I don't think it's a viable model (do you remember the Paul's Components rear mech?). Buying something like a quality pair of shoes or a good axe is an investment that should last years and be repaired, but I think we're a way from that - certainly on drivetrains - in bikeworld at the moment.

In 'real world' use; maybe for a short time, before it starts to wear out. Stuff like aheadset; maybe more conveneint for servicing. But a properly serviced old Cmapag/Dura Ace headset can and do run for decades.

So can a King or a Hope... (arguably of similar price range to a Dura Ace). Even cheaper cup and ball headsets will last if you look after them (as will Shimano hubs), but people prefer fit-and-forget bearings.

The point I was really getting at with the Aheadset is that overall it's a better system, pure and simple. It's simpler to set-up, more secure because the stem bolts straight onto the steerer tube and lighter because there's no expander quill needed. Downsides? Well, adjusting the stem height requires forethought. But once set, how often do you adjust your stem height?

And well done if you've got to the end of this post. I appear to have having a pre-lunch ramble. 😉

Yesterday I saw a Porsche Caynne with a Santa Cruz and Canyon full sussers on the back, case closed.

Jamie - Jamie - Freeloader! But we still like him

This issue has been around for a bit...

2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
2014

...incidentally. Here is my new MTB:

£400 + £100 for 10 speed SLX/RaceFace upgrade.

My kind of budget - what is it?

Yesterday I saw a Porsche Caynne with a Santa Cruz and Canyon full sussers on the back, case closed.

I once say a girl in a Porsche Caynne uplifting a bloke on a full carbon Santa Cruz/full facer sessioning Barry Knows Best in Peaslake, Surrey Hills. I couldn't decide whether to laugh, cry, a combination or just hang my jaw open.

I once say a girl in a Porsche Caynne

You've changed Hora. Once it would have been all flashbangs, etc...

Yesterday I saw a Porsche Caynne with a Santa Cruz and Canyon full sussers on the back, case closed.

Yep, you've really proved a point there 😕

I once say a girl in a Porsche Caynne uplifting a bloke on a full carbon Santa Cruz/full facer sessioning Barry Knows Best in Peaslake, Surrey Hills. I couldn't decide whether to laugh, cry, a combination or just hang my jaw open.

I bet he was having more fun than you and got a good shagging from that girl afterwards.

I bet he was having more fun than you and got a good shagging from that girl afterwards.

No, she wouldn't be taxi driving me around she'd be lazily laying on a bed smiling at me after I'd spent myself in her company not riding a bicycle 😉

8 seconds of activity leaves plenty of time for the uplift for you, Hora.

The point the OP made was about magazines featuring high-price kit. That's always been the case, as has the invariably positive reviews the highest price items get (singletrack mag excepted!). The mainstream magazines are part of an marketing industry that has to sell new kit every year to keep going. Many naïve people seem to open a magazine read a review, rush out and buy the latest £6K bike and believe they have the best kit, not realising that next month another one is reviewed as the best and is available for £7k.

8 seconds of activity leaves plenty of time for the uplift for you, Hora.

Is that 8seconds on rapid fire/pray-n-spray, kicking the bedroom door in whilst shouting [i]yaaaaarrr[/i]?

It is important to highlight new trends in mountain biking with these super expensive bikes making us feel inferior...
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ooohhhh....I want one of those.
Oh, I have one.
And am still riding it.

I think the Savage Terminator was obsolete by the time the magazine was published 🙂
Still love the Attitude though. Pepperoni forks, cantilever brakes, toe clips and straps, how modern can you get?

etto helmets Awesome!

Glad those [I]"push-button shifters"[/I] never caught on though, terrible idea...

Maybe if I had a Klein superbike I too would grin as much as the coverstars... There Re not enough happy people on cover shoots these days as they are all to rad and gnar to show weakness!

If you watched any of the Bikemag.com Bible of Biketest review videos, the one thing they kept banging on about is that "Yes this is $5k bike but you can get the same frame with a similar fork and still great kit for less than $2k..."

They also wrote an article about how manufacturers only send them the Creme de la creme to review and actually getting hold of the lower spec'd bikes to review is actually relatively difficult...

http://www.bikemag.com/blog/the-web-monkey-speaks-the-rising-price-of-kick-ass/

My first mountain bike cost £380 and to be frank it was a shitter it was heavy the gears worked about 85% of the time and bits fell off it as I ride it down byways and canal towpaths. The first set of forks I got (RS quadra 21) were terrible, really really terrible, and they made eff all difference to the ride.

Fast forward nearly 20 years and my bike is lighter more reliable, actually can go off road ( in ways that the limiting factor now is me), this is ALL possible thanks to people buying XTR when all I could afford was STX ( not the RC version either I hasten to add) . Ask yourself why SLX is so good. It's good because 10 years ago it was XTR that's why