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Since we're on the topic of engineering...
On my mech eng course at uni, one of the projects was working with Middleburn on fatigue testing of their cranks (RS7 or 8 IIRC 1997ish) in order to pass the JIS requirements as I recall. They tended to crack (after lots of cycles, I'm not suggesting they were bad)from the square taper to the back of the arm (opposite end to the pedal) - Middleburn's solution - just stick more metal on as shown in the pic below 🙂 To be fair it did work but they were far less fatigue resistant than Shimano cranks of the time.
[img] http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYe2st0UuWky9OKr5tlw9ZjWcEjUyWcS_WjARYivETi3zttjxk [/img]
Because they are not broken!! If a product works its fine.
It can always work better. Shimano cranks got much better and now Middleburn are no longer good, relatively speaking.
Middleburn and Royce you'll never be let down. Used the stuff since the RS3, now have 6 bikes including tandem with fitted. Reliable as triple, double or single. If you need a special making they do it (155 cranks). Currently using RS8 double on race MTB with new fangled bottom bracket thingymabob, saves a midges dick on a square taper royce and about £50 in price. Am not sure this will be money well saved given the endless miles of a Royce.
I will confim that I'm a grumpy old ludite that thinks anything invented after 1959 is the devils work (there are some exceptions to this but my level hipocrisy prevents me making a list).
It can always work better. Shimano cranks got much better and now Middleburn are no longer good, relatively speaking.
Yes things can always get “Better” but I think it comes down to the question of what constitutes “Better”.
For a large number of those still using square taper cranks (Not just Middleburn) I would say they don’t view RF/Shimano/Truvtive/FSAs current HT2/External Bearing BB type cranksets as “Better” in some key areas they could be considered worse…
[I] “Middleburn are no longer good, Relatively speaking [/I]
That’s quite a sweeping statement, Relative to what?
Granted the manufacturing technology employed is not quite as cutting edge as much of the competition, but they still perform the same function as well as they ever did, which is perfectly good enough for many people…
Current top end Cranksets are far from engineering perfection...
Turning the OPs question around a bit: HT2 cranks, Why?
Discuss…
Since when are any cranks unreliable?
Btw I get years out of HT2 bearings. Plus there are aftermarket options more reliable.
That’s quite a sweeping statement, Relative to what?
XTR
Thing is, MB are a premium product with a price tag to match, but not performance. If they were budget then fair enough but they're not.
... on an overpriced steel road frame because it has some italian's name on the downtube?
i don't think £600 is overpriced? 8)
£600! damn you for taking away my smugness....
I wonder what general opinion would be if external BBs were the traditional solution and then someone came up with the revolutionary idea of putting the bearings nice and safe on the INSIDE!!!
All my bikes are HTII but I'm relatively new to riding. Does seem like common sense though that progress should be working towards more reliable products not the other way.
Only real advantage to HTII I can see it that it's dead easy to take the cranks off.
Thing is, MB are a premium product with a price tag to match, but not performance. If they were budget then fair enough but they're not.
Middleburns and sq taper will outlast your XTR cranks and HT2 so the end cost is less! Plus XTR retail at £440 now so wrong comparison, XT is closer. You might save 100g on using XTs for the payoff of regular BB renewals. Its hardly light years ahead!
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www.justgiving.com/alanscole
IMO the design/engineering of the cranks is inadequate as they creak etc - the newer hollow stuff is better (not significantly of course, and the bearings are poorer, but that wasn't my point).
£600! damn you for taking away my smugness....
and if i told you how much the dura-ace and dt's were you certainly wouldn't be smiling. 😀
i paid top whack for the bar tape if it makes you feel better.
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5015/5518825255_5156c9c712_t.jp g" target="_blank">
www.justgiving.com/alanscole
And I was of course on the wind-up 😛
Then I suppose the cost comparison really should be a current XT crank plus £65 for a Hope BB Vs RS7s and a UN72 perhaps?
My own Hope HT2 BB has been fine but I begrudge having to spend that in the first place, within 12 months of buying the cranks. My other HT2 cranks I’ve replaced the bearings in for myself simply based on cost and because I can…
If you can get 2 years out of a shimano BB well done, my experiences have been less positive, and I never had a problem with bearing life for Square taper…
Weight and stiffness, great, but at the cost of durability and VFM? I’m Unimpressed…
Middleburns and sq taper will outlast your XTR cranks and HT2
That's not been my experience.
And like I say there are aftermarket HT2 BBs that are very durable.
i'm still using hone cranks on both mtb's and am on my second set of bearings on each. £19 for ultegra road ones every couple of years.
rings? stainless steel for the ss. blackspire and stainless granny ring on the geared, last for ages.
And like I say there are aftermarket HT2 BBs that are very durable
Like the Hope one I mentioned...
A good product that fixes a proble which would not exist if HT2 BBs were actually any cop...
Hence the fact I consider the price of a set of XTs and certainly XTRs a bit of a piss take, and you should really shove the extra cost on top of a new set of cranks...
Hang on, you say that they are not much good then dismiss the ones that ARE much good because they're not the original ones.
So what?
You can get good HT2 bearings - so get some if you are worried. No-one whined about paying 50 or 100 quid for a Royce or Hope square taper bb did they?
Anyway, I would indeed not pay 450 for XTR cranks, I got mine from CRC for 180 when they were on offer in 2007 🙂
and if i told you how much the dura-ace and dt's were you certainly wouldn't be smiling
I'm still smiling, I wouldn't use dura ace or clinchers even if they were free 😀
Middleburn for me, with a hope external BB. No technical reason, they just look nice, you see less of them, and they're made down the road from me. Does that make me shallow? It certainly doesn't make me go any faster and I don't need and excuse to go slower!
No-one whined about paying 50 or 100 quid for a Royce or Hope square taper bb did they?
Plenty of folk didn't buy them, which amounts to the same.
Surely the continuing attraction of ST BBs, particularly for single speeders is the relative protection of the bearings when compared to HT11? No point winterising a bike that can be muddied all day then hosed down by Karchers best if ickle bearings are exposed to the world. I run ST, Octalink and HT11 (All Shimano XT) on different bikes. ST is by far the most durable, Octalink is a decent compromise between stiffness / weight and durability, HT11 is quite unreliable by comparison.
Hang on, you say that they are not much good then dismiss the ones that ARE much good because they're not the original ones.
I never had a UN52 (pretty much the Deore BB of it's day) let go inside of 3 years, I never needed a Royce, the basic model actually did the job, so I would expect the same or better performance from it's modern equivalents...
I certainly don't dismiss the after market BBs but let's be honest the true cost of an XT HT2 Crankset is not the £210 list price it's more like £275 once you factor in the inevitable BB failure, quite poor VFM in my book...
If you consider that an Improvement over the "Bad old Days" good luck to you....
downshep - summarises it perfectly above...
Middleburns and sq taper will outlast your XTR cranks and HT2 so the end cost is less!
mmm.... noo.... </Consuela the cleaner mode>
I never got on too well with square taper, even when fitted right. My goofy-footedness basically meant the NDS taper would wear, leaving a duff crank. It did this several times, until eventually I switched to HT2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a square taper fan, but I just couldn't argue with the economics in the end - 1 decent ST BB, 1 decent ST crankset, 1 decent fitting costs more than 1 XT HT2 crankset and BB and fitting plus 1 or 2 extra sets of bearings for the next 4 years or so.
I never got on too well with square taper, even when fitted right. My goofy-footedness basically meant the NDS taper would wear, leaving a duff crank. It did this several times, until eventually I switched to HT2. Don't get me wrong, I'm a square taper fan, but I just couldn't argue with the economics in the end - 1 decent ST BB, 1 decent ST crankset, 1 decent fitting costs more than 1 XT HT2 crankset and BB and fitting plus 1 or 2 extra sets of bearings for the next 4 years or so.
Admittedly I've trashed NDS tapers before I realised just how much torque is required to keep them in place.
balfa - Member
"Middleburns and sq taper will outlast your XTR cranks and HT2 so the end cost is less!
The BB I agree with, but the cranks? Doubt that very much. And comparing XTR with Middleburn is a bit off considering that weightwise they're slightly heavier than XT if memory serves (comparing triples with triples obviously)
The BB I agree with, but the cranks?
Why do you doubt that? Even if you trash a middleburn crank you can get an individual replacement. I've had sq taper middleburns that have been trashed on numerous trials bikes and have now been on numerous xc bikes and I've still failed to break them. I don't fancy using XTs for trials and expect them to last long!
I don't think middleburns/sq taper are necessarily better but the newer alternatives are no better when you average things the pluses & minuses out.
How good they are for trials means sod all to almost all riders, it's just not relevant. But do you see a rash of people going around snapping XTR and XT cranks? Or Deore or SLX or Raceface for that matter? Most modern cranks are incredibly durable, when they die it's almost always due to abuse or user error.
And individual replacements are available for Shimano too o'course, just that nobody buys them because it makes more economic sense to get a new set of cranks.