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Seconded request for the boards to be available with wires already attached as this would allow easy lash-ups... errr... I mean [i]prototyping[/i] with screw terminal blocks.
Ian: No problem, should be able to have these ready for tomorrow afternoon if you are about to pick them up.
Squeeky: Can you post the link to the LED board you mean? 1W LEDs are usually 350mA so while you could run three in parallel, that isn't usually recommended for power LEDs.
All: Will look in to options with wires attached. I'm not sure what thicker wire I have - 7/0.2 is rated to 1.4A but it's always better to use more substantial stuff to minimise losses in the wire itself.
I will also do a version with the half-power option. For this you would connect 'A' to 'PWR-' for half-power mode, and leave it unconnected for full power mode. You could add the 1M thermistor between these terminals with the switch shorting it out for half-power mode. You would then get 92.3% power at 10C, 85.9% at 25C, 72.6% at 50C and 63.8% at 70C
Hi BlackCatTech...yep no problem, I'll bob over at 3pm if ok?
Just thought I'd mention that the drivers are now available on eBay again. I've listed a version with the half-power dim mode as well as the standard ones. I've not had the chance to look for other colours of wire so I can't offer pre-wired ones yet, probably Monday now.
I also had a good long chat with the Nockmeister today and it sounds like some of the other things I have up my sleeve may be of interest. I'll try and get them complete as soon as possible so keep an eye on my eBay stuff.
@BlackCatTech - be interested to see what you have up your sleeve, please post here when they're available so we know to look 😉
Any switch recommendations for Lumi cans to go with the 1/2 power option Black Cat drivers?
I'm presuming that a 3 positon switch will be needed? Looking at Farnell's site it's all a bit overwhelming!
@zangolin - you could go with the original Lumi switch and just unplug to switch off.
Otherwise, go with type F here:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=2341
...and use one of these toggle covers:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=2348
...if your original Lumi cover is no more.
Use one half of the switch to switch the power, the other half to switch the dim setting on. I'll try to do a proper wiring diagram if anyone needs one...
Otherwise, go with type F here:
I thought that too, but found that the fatter base of the DPDT switches like that one don't fit in the Lumi can if you want to use the existing hole.
If using the standard Black Cat driver, then it's easy enough to use a SPDT switch such as the Type B Maplin one to have a configuration such as off-full-half (where the off mode is a soft off, so technically not quite as off as unplugging the power cable, but effectively the same), by using the control terminal and a resistor. The instructions that come with the drivers are excellent.
People should be aware that with the 'Dim Mode' drivers the off-full-half option is not available. To turn off you need a separate switch in the power rail.
Using a double-pole, centre off switch you can use one pole to switch the power and another to control the dimming. For example, if you have a double pole, centre-off switch you can wire the 'common' on both poles to 0V. Connect *both* sides of one pole together and run these to the 'PWR-' terminal (IN- on older drivers). Then connect one side of the other pole to the 'A' terminal. (Connect via a 200k resistor for standard drivers, direct connection for dim-mode drivers)
You will then have full - off - half. Not ideal as you have to go via 'off' to change mode but still an option.
The Dim-mode drivers have the resistor described in the data sheet built in, the down-side of this is that you can no longer access the control terminal directly so can't put the driver in to shut-down mode. Next time I get some PCBs made I'll do a version that has both half-power and shutdown modes.
If you are looking for switches I find Rapid Electronics are fairly good and cheap - the trouble is that unless you are near Colchester you need to spend £30 to get around the handling charge. The problem there is that they have so much interesting stuff you can easily spend that much on things you don't really need...
Nice One Steven the 2 mode on the drivers is a good upgrade and a lot less faff for the users .
I have used quite a few of your drivers and have to say they have been solid little things .
Be interested to know what else you have in mind
Fantastic thread!! I have often heard people with almost zero electronics knowledge argue in favour of the pricing of high output lights. The component prices are very low in comparison to the shelf price of an engineered system, but the mark up is such, that you have to have deep pockets or be very very enthused to take the plunge.
I have had three lots of halogen lights, my first set was acquired in 1998. I paid £75, but thought that was a bit steep at the time. Since then, firms like Lupine have driven prices into the stratosphere.
Just had a look at one of the beautifilly engineered lamps from my ageing Cateye ABS35 to see if there is enough room to facilitate one of these high power upgrades. I'm out of luck as the driver would never fit, plus the heatsink fins on the inside would make getting a thermal bridge to the body rather troublesome (if not impossible). Shame since I was once trained to MOD standards ans spent 2 years manufacturing electronics assemblys for things like weapon control systems on fighter aircraft.
I thought i'd see how much a set of lumicycle lights are and am shocked to find their halogen set ups are now £60 more than they were when I last looked (£200).
WHY ARE DECENT BIKE LIGHTS SO STUPIDLY EXPENSIVE? 👿
@spongebob
It must be the outlay>units sold I assume. You think in the grand scheme of things it's only us night riders or 24 hour'ists that buy them.
WHY ARE DECENT BIKE LIGHTS SO STUPIDLY EXPENSIVE?
As my mother would say: because they charge what people will pay. Same reason a cup of coffee can set you back £3
As others have commented part of the cost is simply due to the significant outlay needed to build these things. I'm lucky that I found a good PCB fab that allows me to mix a number of board designs on a single panel as otherwise I probably wouldn't have started doing these drivers. Even then I have to outlay enough to buy components in 100s to keep the cost down so I'm reliant on selling a fair few quickly to pay off the credit card bill.
It is a similar problem for the casings - you need to pay someone to do the tooling or CNC programming and there will probably be several parts required so you could be looking at thousands in set-up costs alone. You'd need to buy a significant quantity to get the unit cost down to a realistic level and unless you can be sure of selling a significant proportion in a short time you run in to cash-flow problems.
I'm certainly interested in looking in to doing a complete system - I can tailor the electronics to suit giving packaging advantages - but until I find a good CNC company with low set-up costs I'm struggling. Of course once you start doing these things commercially you also have a much bigger paper-trail to follow, you have to register under the WEEE directive, have to prove the units meet CE standards etc. If you can be sure of selling things in the millions like radios, DVD players etc you can pretty much ignore these costs but if you are talking thousands then they become more significant I'm afraid...
A quick overview of other things I'm looking at for Troutie and anyone else interested:
Osram do a version of their 'Dragon' range with lenses built in. I've combined one of these with a Linear LTC3490 on a single board to get a pretty decent commuter / head mounted light powered from 2x AA cells. Only trouble is packaging it to be waterproof. I'm meaning to start selling these for DIYers soon.
I've got a version of the driver board with a PIC built in. I'm planning to have this with either a thermistor for temperature control or with a battery monitoring function that lowers the output when the battery gets low as a 'get you home' function. I'm planning to have the option of either a pot for full-range dimming (not so useful for bike lights I'd suspect) or a push-button to cycle through various power settings.
I also have a circuit that can boost from a single Lithium cell to drive 2x LEDs. Not sure if it will manage 1A or just 700mA - will have to try it out! This is based on the National LM3410 which shut cut-out at around 2.7V which is ideal for protecting lithiums from over discharge.
Future plans including trying to hand solder the Zetex ZXLD132x range and trying out a 0.8mm FR4 PCB with plenty of thermal vias and 3x Cree LEDs plus driver on a single board. Getting heat away from this one may be a challenge but if I can solve it (or find a fab that does thermally enhanced PCBs cheaply) then that will be a great combined solution.
Main trouble is that I've got a reef aquarium system with a touch screen controller to get finished as an urgent priority so these will be a while in coming I fear.
Cateye ABS35 to see if there is enough room to facilitate one of these high power upgrades. I'm out of luck as the driver would never fit.
[b]Spongebob[/b], why not mount the driver externally, I'm thinking of mounting my driver pcb's and power switch externally...the power switch on the bars, and the drivers next to the battery?!?
Stephen your commuter/head mounted light shows great promise, small package size and conveniently powered..should be a real winner, was it a 1W output??
3x Cree LEDs plus driver on a single board
This will be [b]VERY[/b] popular (especially if the board had flying leads already soldered on).
I.e. make it as near 'plug and play' as possible.
It appears to be what most people want, especially those who don't have either the confidence, motivation or time to bugger around like a few of us on here
3x Cree LEDs plus driver on a single board
Sounds good, for what housing / optic?
http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ultimate-mr11-acdc-cool-white-bulb-p-1764.html
£7.82 and they claim it equals 18w halogen. Not anywhere near as bright as the Lumicycle upgrade, but I have tow lamps and for the money....
DoctorRad: Not sure yet - suggestions appreciated! I was initially thinking a circular housing / lens but OTOH a 'strip' would mean less PCB waste. I think my main issue is going to be whether FR4 would suit this or if I need to look in to MCPCB. I have read app notes that suggest thin FR4 with plenty of thermal vias can do the job but I'm not sure if that would scale for 10W+ of LEDs.
I need to order some 0.8mm PCBs soon so I'm going to add a few variants to evaluate. Not likely to be before February when I get some results though!
Spongebob: Based on their claimed 150mA power draw that looks like 4x 0.5W LEDs - certainly at 12V that is only 1.8W total power. Depends on the efficiency of the LEDs of course but I suspect you'll get as much light from a single decent power LED at a similar overall power level. Also, they talk about 'wide angle' - unlikely to be suitable for a bike light I would suspect.
Hi, does the driver with dim mode reduce the current draw from the battery and therefore increases run time or does the battery draw remain the same but some current is used by the resistor and therefore a reduced current gets to the LED's? Tks.
Hi DaveGr, the dim mode uses less power from the battery. On testing I'm finding I get around 540mA in dim mode for the 5W (970mA) driver. Your input current should drop proportionally.
All this power talk is very misleading . . . use drive current . . . it's the only thing that is constant with differing LED's and configurations . . .
$0.02
Fd
Fergus: Very much agreed. Unfortunately most LED manufacturers quote power... To be fair, Cree and Seoul don't push power ratings but many of the 'lower end' companies do.
I wish there was a simple answer but I think quoting power has become too established - despite the fact the power ratings quoted not only vary between colours but are wrong anyway...
The simple answer is to state the following
drive current
max input voltage
min input voltage
driver drop voltage
max input to output voltage differential
efficiency curve
Power doesn't come into it until you know what load you are driving as you know.
My conversion using your driver is 10W power consumption, 2W light output, 8W heat output but uses your 5W driver . . . which isn't a 5W driver at all it's a 970mA driver . . . which is more confusing ?
Fd
This is why I try and quote both and explain in my listings. This isn't as relevant to 1A LEDs as it is rate to use power for these. However, you won't find many 350mA and 700mA LEDs not described as being 1W and 3W respectively. I try and make it clear these are drivers *for* 1W or whatever LEDs, not that this is the actual output power.
I think next time I re-list I will revise the descriptions and definitely for the 970mA drivers remove the power reference. The 670mA ones are marginal while the 330mA ones I feel quoting 1W is valid as this usage is most common at this drive level.
Quick question - do both the XRE and XPG PCBs have the two pins in the centre for connection? If so, are they absolutely central and what is the spacing?
I will be able to order some more PCBs early January and I've had an idea to make a driver which solders directly to the pins from the LED PCB with power and control inputs at the other end. This should make the conversion much easier.
they are in the middle Steve
[img] 
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@ BlackCat
If you solder the driver board directly to the PCB, wouldn't that get in the way of the heatsink?
Plan is to have two terminals on one end of the PCB on the same pitch as the holes on the MCPCB. You'd then mount the driver PCB at right angles to the LED PCB with pins long enough to pass through the heatsink. Other option is similar but have the driver parallel to the LED PCB but with long enough pins to keep it clear of the heatsink. Not sure I'll be able to get the output pins central to the board though so the end-on approach is probably best.
Also wondering about the option of getting some custom-made heatsinks. Should be a fairly simple turning / milling job from some 32mm alu. Depends how much demand there is but based on the time saving over modifying the one Chucky used it may be viable. Can anyone give me a decent measurement for the flat?
Must look at getting one of these enclosures myself to play about - anyone know of a cheap source? Even the plain enclosure is £35 from Lumicycle!
Any thoughts on the following as aiding cooling ? There are two types, one solid (mk1) and one vented (mk2) which is similar to the ones on [url= http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RC-540-Motor-Upgrade-Vented-Alloy-Heat-Sink-heatsink-B_W0QQitemZ200374783340QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item2ea7448d6c ]Ebay[/url]. The manufacturers web site doesn't give dimensions apart from "fits electric motors".
[url= http://www.hpiracing.co.uk/piw.php?partNo=ED010411 ]Clip-On Alloy Motor Heatsink[/url]
While I'm thinking on, are there any spare Cutter PCBs / Optics floating around and if not do you need to order a single LED on the MR11 PCB or do you need to order three LEDs plus the PCB? The Cutter site isn't that clear... Best invest in my own stuff if I'm going to look at doing stuff for these properly!
Dave - Would certainly help. The problem with the standard Lumicycle housing is that it is 'flat'. In general, the more surface area you have the better the heat dissipation. Only question is whether they will fit the housing although as the one with a fan is for a 25mm fan and the diameter looks bigger than that then maybe...
DaveGr - I used something similar on my conversion, look back through the posts for pictures. It seems to work very well, although I've only been out in the freezing weather which obviously helps. They [i]should[/i] fit exactly as a 540 motor is just the right diameter, however I've had two different designs supposedly for 540 motors but when they arrived they were different diameters.
BlackCat - you only need x1 LED in the cart to set the type required on the MCPCB, then select however many boards you want.
Blackcat - The board we're using for the conversion is the XPGMR11T with 3 x 1w Cree LED's. Will the 970ma driver work with this?
[url] http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut937 [/url]
Got my board today Blackcat (with wires already souldered to save my cack handedness knackering it up). ACE! Ta very much.
SB: That board uses the XPG which is fine up to 1A.
To those who replied off-list, I've not forgotten, just snowed under at the moment!
Hoping to have a lumicycle-specific driver late January and a simple test-hack to see if I can run power LEDs on standard PCB laminate for an all-in-one.
Have a good one all - off for a few days now.
I've just had a mare soldering on the connectors on my XPG board. They peal up so easily. The ERX versions were much much more durable when trying to get the board back into the housing. as luck would have it I managed to peal up the track scrape the black off and solder carefully to that. Not perfect but it's holding for now. All in all, I'm not really impressed with this new board and will be ordering XRE Q5's from now on as I'm happy with the 4 can's done already using this method and I don't think the XPG MPCB is quite up to the job.
That's a bit odd - I soldered up an XP-G triple MCPCB a wee while ago with a burnt out crappy soldering iron tip, and it held up OK. I'm a novice solderer, and was using crappy equipment, so I reckon you might have been a bit unlucky. I've since redone it with a new clean tip and it was a million times easier to get the heat where it needed to be rather than sitting the tip on the pad for a minute or two before the solder would melt. Everything was getting hot except the bits I wanted too!
Anyway, have my first conversion all done and dusted now. Big thank you to Chucky, fergusd and others for the help. Have ordered a quad XP-G from Cutter, and the other bits required to convert my other Lumi can too.
Gray
I'd considered a quad conversion too, however I couldn't get the right battery/driver combination.
x4 XPGs at 1000mA should give a total Vfd of about 13.2V, if you're using a 14.4V battery you'd need a buck converter like a bFlex or one of BlackCat's drivers where the input voltage must be greater than the output voltage.
However, the bFlex margin is recommended at +1.1V over Vfd and BlackCat's is +10% over Vfd. This means the lowest recommended battery voltage is 14.3V for a bFlex and 14.6V for a BlackCat. It won't take long for even a freshly charged battery to drop below these figures and therefore send the board out of regulation. This would mean losing dimming capability on the bFlex, not sure of the implications with a BlackCat though.
I'd also considered a x5 XPG which is even worse! However it can be overcome using 2 drivers. I had planned on using a Hope HID housing to fit it all in, this may be a bit of a squeeze in a Lumi halogen can though.
Unless you got a faulty one I don't think there is any issue with the XP-G MCPCB . . .
I've soldered a number of these now and have had zero issues . . . however I am an experienced solderer and have the correct gear . . .
I suspect you are overheating the solder pads, probably because you are using too hot an iron and not using it properly (no offence) . . . probably keeping it on the joint for far too long
I use a small tipped iron (1.5mm width) of about 20W power with 1mm solder and can solder these joints onto the MCPCB in about 1.5 second . . . you must use a clean iron tip (use a damp sponge to clean it) and apply the iron to the joint with the wire already inserted, leave in place for about a second then touch the solder onto the joint (not the iron), the solder will melt and the flux will clean the joint and the solder will then flow onto it very quickly . . . then remove the iron . . .
It helps to pre-tin the wires (ie. get some solder onto them before you try to solder them into the board - makes the process quicker - again this should be done with a clean iron and quickly)
large iron tips don't help, hot irons don't help . . . and like all PCB's if you overheat them they will de-laminate and the pads will come off . . .
You can usually file down iron tips to give them a second life . . . but ensure that if you do they DO NOT have the heating element as part of them (most don't but you can see the danger)
Finally got my cans converted...BIG thanks to Chucky(AKA Racing) for the guide,ordering,answering dunbass questions, and Jonathan B for the soldering skillz!
XP-G's running with Blackcat 970mA drivers,8mm alloy heatsink and a lot of elbow grease
Lumicycle cans[img] http://www.flickr.com/photos/nockmeister/4288605085/ [/img]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nockmeister/4288605085/
[img] 
[/img]
they look great with matching heatsinks.
glad it all worked out well
I've had to send my XPG board back as the tracks pealed off the board. THe XRE is as good as ever and I've replaced it with an SSC for now. Still need to find someone with a proper internal heat sink.