[Closed] London cycling commuters, are you breaking da law? 😉

I do admit I don't 'run' red lights, however if I'm at a cross roads and both set of lights are on red then if no one is crossing on foot I will carry on.

Another instance is at a pedestrian crossing, if the lights are on stop an no one is there to cross or is currently crossing then I don't see an issue with it to be honest

Another instance is at a pedestrian crossing, if the lights are on stop an no one is there to cross or is currently crossing then I don't see an issue with it to be honest

What do the cars sitting there think of that I wonder? I suspect they'd rather like to be able to go through the pointless light as well, wouldn't they?

I pull up to the front, or the outside of the inside lane if I can't get out front. Then when the lights go I am quick off the mark, but I stay in the middle of my lane through the junction so I can't be overtaken, if it looks like being tight. I'm going fast enough for it not to be a problem so I don't get grief for it.

Another instance is at a pedestrian crossing, if the lights are on stop an no one is there to cross or is currently crossing then I don't see an issue with it to be honest

I do that sometimes (not that often though), but I get off and push the bike and remount the other side

I have to say, that in certain circumstances (Like riding an MTB on the road rather than my commuter which is too heavy for much tomfoolery) I'm exactly the sort of cyclist the Daily Mail and it's readers hate:
Red lights? Whassat you say? What are they? I don't give a flying toss about them. I'll use the pavement as and when I feel like it, cut in and out of stationary or slow traffic, jump off roundabouts and speed ramps, steps, pedestrian areas, anything. I'm a nightmare for it. I give way to peds, but cars are fair game for blocking if I feel like it and they've annoyed me. I've banged on the side of a few in my time.

Why? Fun, innit 🙂

I get up to speed and out the way of a dangerous junction, cars get a clear run without the challenge of accelerating, changing gear, manoeuvring and overtaking me combined.

Funny thing is when I'm in the car and there is a cyclist at the lights I actually hope they go a few seconds early, makes it easier for everyone.

In an ideal world at busy junctions cycles would get a headstart, but lets face it if this ever happened there would be an uproar from the average motorist

richmtb Funny thing is when I'm in the car and there is a cyclist at the lights I actually hope they go a few seconds early, makes it easier for everyone.

Indeed. the two junctions I describe doing this at I am out of the cars way - safer for me, less frustrating for them.

I don't have to rely on the cars seeing me and giving me space - Or demand my space in teh road - I am out of there before they get there.

I really must do the urban rider vid to post on here.

Why? Fun, innit

Innit though! Big up an nuff respect an ting to the Podmeister! 😀

I find car wing mirrors get in my way, so I do myself and all other cyclists a favour by removing them. The drivers never use them anyway, and removing them increases the aerodynamic efficiency of their motor vehicle which saves fuel and is better for the planet. 🙂

I've never had any one get annoyed, beep me, try and race past me or give me grief when I've either parked at the front of a queue, cycled up the inside (whilst stationary) or sprinted off before all the cars. I think motorists appreciate that it works well and gets me out of their way until they can pass normally.

I’ve jumped all of the red lights at some time on my commute, but follow them at other times, there are quite a few factors that influence these decisions. I’m aware it’s illegal and if I get done for it, then I’ll accept the consequences. I also accept that any argument I put forward to why I do this would fail to satisfy some folk on here, but similarly the ire or arguments expressed by them will not dissuade me from doing so. When my ride to work has brought society to a state of near collapse and our children are feral, I’ll finally know my work is done.

I agree with TandemJeremy. Safety first, rules for the sake of rules second. Those that turn a murky grey issue into a black and white one are fools to their own demise, which is their choice.

So those of you that believe that there is no excuse for RLJ are your bikes fully legal? Red reflector on the back, pedal reflectors, ce marked lights? ( non ce marked lights are not strictly legal)

If not how do you justify breaking these laws?

I've just checked my Brompton

Reflectors on pedals - check
Red reflector on rear - check
CE marked lights front & rear - check

It's even got a bell!

😉

Sorry I really don't get the "must be at the front of all traffic at red lights otherwise you will die" mantra. I only bother if it's safe, convenient (to both me and other traffic) and/or I'm gonna make up a lot of time/distance.

It's proper annoying when you get stuck behind a bus etc doing 12mph because spome twonk on a bike has inched to the front and decided everything behind him must go as slow as he does.*

EDIT *may contain trolling content.

So those of you that believe that there is no excuse for RLJ are your bikes fully legal? Red reflector on the back, pedal reflectors, ce marked lights? (

Oddly, being a seriel RLJer I have a bike covered in lights and reflectors on wheels and pedals. (F & R reflectors are pretty useless and I remove them to fit the lights or there's no room)

So ner! 😉

It's proper annoying when you get stuck behind a bus etc doing 12mph because spome twonk on a bike has inched to the front and decided everything behind him must go as slow as he does.

Yeah but it's not the end of the World, is it? I mean, you're not going to die because you're only going at 12 miles an hour. Maybe it's safer for the cyclist to just continue, rather than pull over to let some impatient person past.

If tossers in cars behind me get impatient and start bibbing, when there's no way for me to let them past, I will ride deliberately slowly. **** 'em. The World doesn't revolve around them.

Red reflector on the back, pedal reflectors, ce marked lights?

Not really on the same scale as RLJ, Police won't give a hoot about those, what's your point?

TandemJeremy - Member
So those of you that believe that there is no excuse for RLJ are your bikes fully legal? Red reflector on the back, pedal reflectors, ce marked lights? ( non ce marked lights are not strictly legal)

If not how do you justify breaking these laws?

IMO they are less important than RLJ and visibility is accounted for in other ways.

so you pick an chose the laws to obey and compromise your safety?

al - it doesn't hold the cars up tho - they will be in exactly the same place in teh next jam as no one overtakes

Elfinsafety - Member

It's proper annoying when you get stuck behind a bus etc doing 12mph because spome twonk on a bike has inched to the front and decided everything behind him must go as slow as he does.

If tossers in cars behind me get impatient and start bibbing, when there's no way for me to let them past, I will ride deliberately slowly. **** 'em. The World doesn't revolve around them.

According to your post, it actually revolves around you then? 🙄

TandemJeremy - Member
so you pick an chose the laws to obey and compromise your safety?

Yes, so?

al - it doesn't hold the cars up tho - they will be in exactly the same place in teh next jam as no one overtakes

Yes, so?

Its the hypocrisy of the " you must obey all red lights" brigade. They are quite happy to break other laws. (not you - I don't remember you saying that.)_

According to your post, it actually revolves around you then?

Well, duuuh! 🙄 Have you not worked that out yet then?

It's proper annoying when you get stuck behind a bus etc doing 12mph

You'll never get stuck behind me doing 12mph!

I choose my strategy based on the fact that I'm fast enough to make it work. If I were a granny I'd choose something else!

The London police certainly do care if you've not got lights on, saw one lad getting fined last week in the road through Hyde Park.

As for motorists being bothered about cyclists going through red lights at pedestrian crossings, couldn't give a monkies myself.

I choose not to jump RL's because it's stooopid, I don't have silly reflectors on my pedals because there next to useless, I do have hi viz vest/backpack, three lights, pink grips with glitterey tassles and [b]helmet[/b] though.

so you hare happy to break laws then when riding? pedal reflectors are actually very good for being seen by and identifying you as a cyclist. No rear reflector either? Are your lights CE marked? You lawbreaker you . Tsk tsk

OK, I admit it. I'm an irresponsible fool and giving the entire cycling public a very, very bad image.

I cycle round the streets of London in OFFICE SHOES. They have no velcro straps, no ratchet systems, no carbon soles and no cleats.

It's not big and it's not clever.

I'm ashamed of myself and shall hand myself in to the first policeman I see

pedal reflectors are actually very good

not once they get covered in grime, plus my legs move to quick anyway, rear reflector? What do you ride a Boris tandem? Do you work for the EU or something?

not once they get covered in grime, plus my legs move to quick anyway

They don't seem to get covered up to the point of invisibility, and speaking as a motorist pedal reflectors are one of the things that immediately and unambigiously identify a cyclist from a long way off in the dark. Likewise wheel reflectors if the cyclist is coming from the side.

12mph! 😆

I don't know if I'm that bothered about RLJ when it's done (in my eyes) at a minimum and responsibly. I just don't perceive the same threat from traffic at lights.

I have no pedal reflectors (I wish I did as they are very good but they fell off), However I have a pannier reflector, rack reflector and reflective trouser band, often a tabard too.

So those of you that believe that there is no excuse for RLJ are your bikes fully legal? Red reflector on the back, pedal reflectors, ce marked lights? ( non ce marked lights are not strictly legal)

I don't know if it's the same now, but when I worked in a shop it was only legal for a shop to supply a bike with front, rear, pedal and wheel reflectors. Once the bike had been bought the owner could remove them if they wanted to.

I don't know if I'm that bothered about RLJ when it's done (in my eyes) at a minimum and responsibly. I just don't perceive the same threat from traffic at lights.

Maybe we need to categorise RLJing?

Is an RLJ when someone turns left through a light when the road is clear, or when someone sails through a red as if protected by a shield of invincibility? Or is it all the same (you lawbreaker, you)?

wrong pimpmaster. Teh rear reflector is mandatory for all bikes, the pedal reflectors post 1985. The front reflector and wheel reflectors can be removed. A CE marked light has a legal reflector in it.

60

At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85).

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069837

BTW TJ I think your hypocrisy post was a bit over the top (and incorrect)

So right apart from the rear and pedal reflectors. 😛

On my ride from office to station

RLJs 8 (1 fix, 3 hybrid, 4 Boris bikes)
Riding on pavement (1 Boris bike)
Riding wrong way (1 Boris bike)
Near collision - only one, but ironically wa a girl who jumped lights got missed by a taxi by a gnats cock, which had also jumped lights
Percentage of ASLs that had taxis in them 100%

As someone that rides in London most days I'd say those that obey every rule of the road, wear reflective gear and ride along with a halo above them tend to be the same cyclists that end up under the wheel of a motorised vehicle!

If (like me) you occasionally, jump the odd light, use the pavement, ride up the wrong side of the road, dive in and out of slow moving traffic. Then you concentrating and not just blundering along and therefore less likely to be squashed! I make all my own choices and live with the results.... just like when I hammer down the mway at over 70mph!

Yeah it is breaking the law, but in grand scheme of things is it that important....? There are people in the world doing far, far worse!

Arcticdan Thats rubbish. I'm viz'd up and obey the law. I know exactly whats going on around me. I haven't been squashed yet

Maybe an over generalisation, but for the majority of those type of cyclist they are an accident waiting to happen!

Had a feeling this would be rather heated. My rules are, pay close attention to everything around you, then, should you decide to break the law, you are less likely to be caught.

This also helps avoid being runover or indeed hitting someone else.

I've covered 40000+- miles in london and am yet to have an accident.

For the record, i used to jump red lights like it was going out of fashion, but i do it rarely now..but do do it, if it's safe to do so.

Everyone breaks the law doing something they shouldn't, so i wouldn't and indeed don't worry about it.

I choose not to jump RL's because it's stooopid

I have an idea that rewski might be having us on, but anyone who truly believes this isn't really paying attention to what's going on around him. Which [i]is[/i] stoopid.

me: Lights F&R, no idea about CE markings, no reflectors, no pedal reflectors, some black clothing but always some white/light/reflective. RLJ where it's safe, advantageous, and doesn't incovenience pedestrians or drivers with more of a right of way than me*. But never at the one the Po-leece stand behind every day.

*Edit: And always after slowing as much as necessary and making exaggerated head movements while I check to make it obvious to anyone who cares that I'm making informed choices about my safety and that of those who I might affect.

I have come to the conclusion that there are two Edinburghs. TJs one, where it takes an hour to drive out of town and all the drivers are out to get you - and the one I live and work in.

TJ, why do you make a point of saying you never ride on pavements?

Seems odd to find someone who spends a lot of his time preaching intelligent choice regardeless of the the law to be using the word "never".

Not even if it involves a satisfying sidehop and no one's looking?

I don'rt believe its ever justified to ride on pavements. I push my bike if I want to go on a pavement.

I make teh point to show its not about being unthinking or selfish that I jump red lights but that I do it in a considered manner to ensure my safety.

Actually thinking about it I have used the edge of dropped kerbs as little jumps for amusement a few times. However I never use pavements to avoid traffic

The one and only fine i've had in London was for riding on the pavement; going down the strand, hopped onto the pavement to take a little short cut to a loading bay and rode straight up to a policewomen. It was actually very funny and we both laughed at how dumb i was, she was very pleasent and we had quite a chat 😉

Actually thinking about it I have used the edge of dropped kerbs as little jumps for amusement a few times. However I never use pavements to avoid traffic

Same, for the record, it would be slower to ride on the pavement than anywhere else in London. A waste of time. Although one place that is good is Temple, loads of maze like routes, drops, steps...good fun!

However I never use pavements to avoid traffic

I understand you point of why you made the point, but I don't see the difference between taking another's right of way when it's safe and doesn't incovenience them, and taking another's right of way when it's safe and doesn't incovenience them.

😉

I red light jump only for my own safety. I don't know of a situation where going on pavements reduces the risks to me significantly

God Joe, what have you started here with this thread - there'll be no one cycling in tomorrow, they're all too busy arguing on here!

[b]I red light jump only for my own safety.[/b]

perhaps you need to go to a cycling proficiency class (they are run by local authorities and free to attend) and learn how to ride a bicycle on the highway safely?

seriously, if you need to break the law to "stay safe" on the highway, you need to have a long, hard look at your cycling?

develop your "road craft", follow the highway code and you won't have a problem with either the law or other road users..

think of if it this way - if you break the law and are involved in a road traffic accident with a pedestrian, other cyclist or motor vehicle, and you survive the accident, expect to have the full weight of the law thrown at you

I commute over 100 miles a week from NW to S London, and the common "near misses" I have is with law-breaking cyclists jumping lights at junctions and riding at me down one-way roads

ES,

Yup, there are some ****s out there, and I'm not one of the ones you describe.

But there is a difference between making every possible effort to make sure everyone around you is not endangered or inconvenienced by your actions, and making your commute 10% longer than it needs to be.

Oh, and when I break the law, I make bloody sure that there is zero chance that my doing it will result in any kind of RTA.

nedrapier - those exaggerated head movements are your brain trying to tell you it's stoopid.

Are you on the back of TJ's tandem by any chance?

I red light jump only for my own safety.

Sometimes it is clearly the safer option.

There's no such thing as a RTA, have you not seen Hot Fuzz? Accident implies nobody was at fault, if you jump lights it's pretty cut and dry who's fault it is.

esher shore

Don't patronise me. I am 50 yrs old and have always cycled in towns and don't own a car.

Did you actually bother to read what I wrote? Perhaps you should go back and do so.

I RLJ in a controlled manner at junctions I know when I can see all is clear and when by doing so I improve my safety by getting out of the way. I do not do it for my convenience.

If you don't understand that sometimes its safer to RLJ then you need to brush up on your riding skills.

Its a part of defensive riding that I have been practising for decades. I first read "roadcraft" 30 yrs ago

Go teach your grandmother to suck eggs.
.

I'm with TJ on this BTW, certain junctions in London for one are way, way safer if you've got a clear road ahead and behind. having been stopped by the plod for doing so, he agreed with my arguement and said good day.

The traffic lights in towns are there for motor vehicles. Bikes are now a part of the traffic and this inturn presents problems. I really consider cyclists in London as no problem, if you wanna risk your arse doing something dumb, go ahead. If it's clearly a considered move, taking in all aspects of potential danger..fair play.

Drivers on the other hand belting through reds 2 seconds after they've changed is a far, far greater danger to every road user. Drivers in London jump every set of lights i'm at...possibly hundreds a day.
The police appear not to really give a toss. Black cabs as a group of individuals are the worst offenders by miles.

so you pick an chose the laws to obey

I don'rt believe its ever justified to ride on pavements.I don'rt believe its ever justified to ride on pavements.

TJ, can you maybe video this junction you keep talking about so we can really see what you mean?

I have given you google images and descriptions of two junctions on teh first page.

How do you get past the nearside of a car that's too close to the kerb at the traffic lights?

You wait.

You go down the outside

Like druidh I have zero problems with junctions in town. Only with other bike users making up their own rules and being entirely unpredictablein their use of the road system. If we all act in the same way then it will be fine.

Tj - you sure seem to perceive some aggro out there.

Agreed. Maybe things seem more aggro at TJ's speeds.
😆

No aggro - just keeping myself safe. I haven't had any aggro for a long time.

I'll show you the two junctions in question but I know its safer to go a few seconds early to get ahead of the cars.

Al - why the attack again.
Where did I say I get aggro?

TBC - have you ever ridden thru those two junctions? I dio use them a lot

i commute to work in london every day and I ride like a complete bastard! I hold onto lorries, gamble with amber, hop on pavements to cut up the stationery traffic weave like a bee and if any one cuts me up or pulls out in front of me i kick their wing mirror off then do one down a side road!

I RLJ all the time. But over here (Vancouver), it's actually legal and both cars, bikes, trucks and buses do it. In fact, all over North America it's legal (except at specified junctions).

So, if it's good for the US and Canada, why is it such an issue in the UK? The difference is that it only applies when turning right and you must give way to pedestrians and traffic from your left.

So, reverse the directions for you right hand drive people and it's perfectly safe to turn left on a red light when everyone understands it's treated as a Give Way.

So, all those people above getting sanctimonious about RLJ'ing take the above into account. I'm pretty certain the vast majority of RLJ'ers (even in London or Edinburgh) aren't zooming straight across the middle of busy junctions without looking and with traffic flashing past in either direction.
(To summarize, there is sensible RLJ'ing and there is suicidal RLJ'ing but the former does appear to be apparent to the Daily Mail readers above! And yes, it is breaking the law [in the UK] but the law is an ass and should be updated)

Teviot... nearly every day as I commute through it. Twice.
Leith... used to live nearby if you recall. So aye to that one too.

Ride like a car drives - they don't seem to have trouble with them.

markgraylish - So you propose a law where anyone on a bike can jump a red light, do you really think that's suitable for a 8+ year old child to do? I can't be assed with this one anymore RJL's please carry on, perhaps the inevitable might happen and I can read about you in my Daily Mail.

NickyB is going downhill - I think i've seen you, you need to pump your back tyre up, you'd go much faster.

Now I'm really going.

Weel, there's a turn up. Saw no RLJs on my ride from station to office this morning at all. Sadly, as usual, all the ASLs were full of taxis, buses, vans and motorbikes

CaptainFlashheart - Member

How do you get past the nearside of a car that's too close to the kerb at the traffic lights?

You wait.

You go down the outside

Nahhh. Bollox to that. Stuff the lot of 'em. Rules? I don't need your stinking rules!

i commute to work in london every day and I ride like a complete bastard! I hold onto lorries, gamble with amber, hop on pavements to cut up the stationery traffic weave like a bee and if any one cuts me up or pulls out in front of me i kick their wing mirror off then do one down a side road!

NickyB is my hero! Go dude!!! 😀

TBC - you don't understand the posiotion. ride like a car drives? The teviot place one you are in a cycle lane joining a road. Does not apply.

If you go a bit early you are in front of the cars. If you go on green then you have a line of cars crossing your lane. Other STWers have had issues at thei set. its badly designed.

The leith one - you would be being overtaken by a line of traffic thru a pinch point and then have to turn right across a line of traffic.

Both times it is simply safer to set off from the light early. Its safer to be infront than it is to be amongst the traffic especially with the pinch points and illegally parked cars

TBC - I have also seen you riding on pavements and pedestrian crossings as well as ignoring other road law

TBC - I have also seen you riding on pavements and pedestrian crossings as well as ignoring other road law

yes i have done. That was not what i was discussing with you though.

I was pointing out the fallacy of running reds.

Can you elaborate on the Teviot junction again - not sure i understand what the problem is (genuinely not poking).

AS you come up off middle meadow walk there is a road from your right and your left both of which turn and going straight on. The traffic lights for the cycle lane in the middle are timed so that they ago to green the same time as the road from your right. The road you are going on to is two lane but all the traffic from you right wants to cross to the left lane, the one you are going to be in. If you leave on the green you arrive at the point on the road that the cars want to go into at the same time as they do and because of the layout of the road they will tend to swing across into your lane right at the start of the two lane bit. there is almost always illegally parked cars on it which narrows it as well.

You can clearly see all the roads and pavements for hundreds of yards. If you go early then you are ahead of the cars at the point they want to merge into your lane, if you wait for the green you are alongside them as they want to merge.

The next set of lights is always on red - thats how the timing works. So if you have waited for the green you then get trangled up in the cars again there, if you have gone early you are at the front of the line so the next junction where you turn right is easier.

You are less in the way of the cars and less exposed to them if you go early. There is no danger in going early at all. There is danger if you go on green.

other STWers have had issues at these lights - they are badly designed.

TJ you really need to lighten up, can you not understand what 😆 means?

TandemJeremy - Member

If you go a bit early you are in front of the cars. If you go on green then you have a line of cars crossing your lane. Other STWers have had issues at thei set. its badly designed.

Are you not channelled straight onto the bike lane?

I've used that junction for years too - I worked nearby for 7 years. HOwever your description of how traffic uses it is nrecognisable to me.

Al - a smilie does not make persoanl attacks acceptable. You continually make snidey digs at me. You didn't like it when I did it to you the other day

I use that junction a lot. That is how I find it. the cycle lane is merely a bit marked on the side of the road that is far to narrow, it usually has parked cars in it and the cars come from your right and try to merge to the left into the space you are in. I don't like having a car a few inches from my elbow. I'd rther it was a few yards behind

TJ I don't even remember you having a go at me. If you can't even take a humourous poke about going slow, with a smilie attached, I give up.

I get on fine with the bike lane (you appear to want more room than me) and don't find cars automatically forcing me onto the kerb as you appear to.