C-G - are you a NIMBY?
Erosion has been happening for millennia. Look at the hollow lanes crossing the downland of the south, some massively eroded trails that have since been tarmaced over. Humans shape the landscape. Some humans do not like other groups of humans.
these people just want the whole park to themselves and want all the paths to be levelled off so they will be able to get their zimmer frames up. this just sterilises the whole experience for those who want a challenge and not just a crappy stone chipped walkway.
If the walkers want to walk along a nice smooth path, maybe the rugged great outdoors is not for them?
FWIW, there are no Green Lanes or BOATs in Scotlane, so that's never really been an issue. The very few old Rights of Way which were open to motor vehicles (such as the Corrieyairack) are gradually becoming closed up or simply impassable.
I don't know if this has any relevance to the position "down South" other than it is one less pressure that the various outdoor travellers have had to deal with.
A soft path used by lots of horses gets in almost as bad a mess - in some ways worse.cinnamon_girl - Member
What I would really like is for an mx'er, having ridden along a Byway, to dismount and try walking along where he has just ridden. After his 6 mates have been along there too naturally.They don't have a bloomin' clue and don't want to know either.
C-G - are you a NIMBY?
No, I am not. But I am trying to see the bigger picture of an increasing elderly population who want to remain active and enjoy [b]their[/b] local trails. They are being frightened.
Well, old people frighten me.
I say they shouldn't be allowed outside apart from a couple of hours in the week ;).
And yes - 4x4 tracks especially can often push mud out leaving a reasonable walkable path; where horses can just churn.
Just realised, sticky thread at the top of this forum - http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/sending-views-to-the-panel
First they took the motorbikes, then the.....
I like the system they have in the US where in many cases they have graded (ie black, red, etc) routes which you can legally ride and drive off-road vehicles through. Perhaps if we had this, we'd find less kids tearing around the streets on illegal bikes?
There was a brief clip of horses trying to use a rutted Byway. It was not easy for them as their horses had a very good chance of slipping.
Ah didn't catch it all. However, I suspect the horse riders don't want a perfect hard surface either.
For the record, Horse riders have over ten times more track than motorised vehicles have access to if you don't include the byways.
Clearly the whole rights of way system needs to be upgraded.
Personally I think there should be more levels of road/path
Footpath : Foot only
Path : Foot + Bike
Bridleway : Foot + Bike + Horse
Byway : Foot + Bike + Horse + MXer
BOAT : Foot + Bike + Horse + MXer + 4X4
Road : all
then all rights of way need to reclassified according to what they can fairly sustainably support.
Ignoring the Peak District for a moment I personally reckon alot of bridleways in the south (ie chilterns) are not capable of supporting horse's with out it destroying the path.
Also some paths need to be upgraded. for instance there is a BOAT that goes along the top of inkpen hill/ walbury hill.
I would have not problem sharing it with 4x4/MXer except they destroy the path.
Its not particularly exciting so clading it in stone like the road in the peak district would not be a problem and should be done ASAP.
I would have liked to have seen some documented evidence (a traffic survey of numbers over a period of time) of use by motorised vehicles along the lane causing the villagers so much angst. I have a feeling that total use is probably quite minimal.
Broadening from the subject matter - there seem to be retired, mentally active but hobby shy people everywhere that enjoy nothing more than continually writing letters to local papers and organising local groups to object to pretty much anything and everything.
ok cg - challenge, we'll get a wet bit of track, I'll follow 6 (motor) bikers, you follow 6 horses, I reckon I'll win ?
IMHO the ruts etc left by vehicles at least tend to have a middle or side lanes, or if not too deep can be used as they tend to be compacted, horses seem to churn everything into an impassable morass.
cg - ' But I am trying to see the bigger picture of an increasing elderly population who want to remain active and enjoy their local trails. They are being frightened' ????
see http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/places/rightsofway/prow/default.aspx
I think you need new glasses, lets face it, they should only be frightened on 2% of tracks, is it beyond them to stick to the tiny, microscopic 98% (+ plus open access etc) of tracks where they will be left in peace ? or isn't 98% enough for them (in the bigger picture of course)
Let's get the terminology right. A motocrosser is designed for motocross, is not designed to be registered and not built to comply with the laws for the road.
Any motor vehicle used on a BOAT etc has to be registered, taxed, insured, silenced, have road legal tyres etc just as if it were on any other road.
I thought the park people did a good job. If it had been me I would have banged both sides heads together until they stopped behaving like selfish bores. I guess this also highlights why I have deep distrust of committees and little England tory's.
Yep, found the walkers to be incredibly tedious they should sort their lives out.
Agree with some of the other comments that despite the specific issues regarding 4x4 motoring it was pretty obvious that if possible they will happily ban any activity in the PD that isn't walking.
Right, I've been mulling over this subject and will share my thoughts. Expecting to get shot down so ... body armour is the attire of the moment!
I'm pretty passionate about our rights of way network and feel fortunate to have made good use of it over the years. It's existed for hundreds of years but perhaps the time has come to remove our rose-tinted glasses?
My gut feeling is that the world has moved on and rights of way need to serve our needs, rather than time standing still.
Many of you are moaning about elderly folk (and their attitude) cluttering up the countryside. Whether we like it or not, their population will have increased considerably and, yes, that will consist of us eventually.
It's not just having rights of way that are 'safe' for them to use, their mental wellbeing also comes into the equation. They have the opportunity to mix with others of a similar age and this is what I consider to be extremely important. Do we really want them all shunted off into a care home, never to appreciate the countryside and fresh air ever again?
How many of you have ever stopped and talked to these elderly walkers? Do you realise that as one ages, reflexes, hearing etc. aren't as sharp as they were? They don't realise that our beloved disc brakes enable us to stop fairly swiftly. Yes, it can be fear on their part.
Sorry for banging on. 🙄
^^^^
A lot of the people that enjoy Trail Motorcycling are elderely. For many of these elderely trail motorcyclists their ability to [i]ENJOY[/i] accessing the countryside is limited to using a trailbike.
It's not going to be much fun walking up a steep hill with 70yr old arthritic knees that cause pain on exertion, or going for day long walks. Trailbiking provides a mode to enjoy the countryside for those in ths position. 2% of the rights of way is all that's available to them. For those that don't wish to encounter, or tolerate, trailbikes on the 2% of lanes left to them they could always use the remaining 98%?
as an alternative cg, why not get your elderly ramblers to try listening and to try to accept the difference between facts and what they've read/heard.
I have talked to quite a few elderly people, the fact that they were illegally blocking my motorbike whilst I was obeying the law was lost on them e.g "you come up here blasting pass" - well actually I was doing about 5mph and just in case you hadn't noticed I'm actually stopped listening to you - that really has happened on quite a few occasions.
The ramblers concept of sharing seems to be them getting everything they want - at the expense of others, and frankly that rather frightens me, as in comparison to all other offroaders they have much MUCH more political and financial clout.
I'm happy to share, I'd like mtb access increased to 50/60% of total paths (so a huge rise from 22ish%) and vehicles back up to 5% (where they were in about 2005/before crow crap).
no shortage of routes nr Great Longstone - I presume this is the same place?
http://www.bdcc.co.uk/XMarksTheSpot.htm?g=SK2013871726&t=SK2013871726
It's even on Google maps as a ROAD!!
There's even a footpath providing a link for those that don't want to walk on the ROAD that is Cherpit Lane!!
Pictures paint a 1000 words - the picture of the solitary road known as cherpit lane in a sea of non motorised ROW speaks volumes
+1 for CG, and +1 for orangetoaster too.
However it's an inescapable fact that the ratio or responsible mx* riders to arsehole ones isn't doing the good ones any favours. That's not the fault of the good ones of course, but it needs to be understood that the general hostility hasn't just sprouted from thin air.
I think one of the simple things they could consider doing would be wearing open face helmets more. Being able to see a face, and see someone smile, makes a huge difference imo.
* yes, yes I know they're not mx bikes - but that's what the general public call em, so get use to it 😀
Watched this last night. To be honest I was a bit shocked by the anger of a lot of the locals. "Destroying our lives" FFS, I wish I had that little to worry about!
Didn't envy the Park ROW staff at all, the skinny one (noticed he was a MTBer from his screensaver) looked particularly miserable at that meeting. And it was good to see the chief exec standing up to that bullying Antony Worrall Thompson lookalike. What an annoying smartarse.
I'll admit the show has made me see these greenlaners/trailbikers in a more sympathetic light. I don't like seeing them out in the hills myself, my gut instinct is that they don't belong there, but in future I'll try to be a bit less scornful because I realise they are just geeky middle aged men enjoying their only pleasure in life (ring any bells?).
@ IanMunro
Trouble with open face is that they don't protect ones face from the heavily overgrown vegetation one encounters on many greenlanes. I take a pruning saw out when I Trailbike as many routes are impassable without cutting back the over growth.
On more open routes I wear a "dualsport" style helmet - like an MX lid with a visor. I use this with safety specs on the lanes. Leaves plenty of face visible whilst not being scary in appearance.
With so much access denied most trailbiking runs consist of large amounts of tarmac riding on busy carriageways - not the place for an open face lid.
Plus it's really cold!!!
The lane in question is hardly used by motorbikes/4x4.In the week i have never seen a motorbike/4x4 on it other than myself on a motorbike.As said above they are not MXers they are trail bikes or Enduro bikes.As for 4x4s digging up the lanes yes they do but that makes it more interesting to ride on a MTB.If you want it nice and smooth get a road bike keep off the dirt.Take the Ridgeway much more fun in the ruts than the grass by the side.I know a guy who still rides a KTM 250 enduro on the green lanes and hes 85.Its nothing to do with age.They dont bother moaning about the tracks down from monsal Head because they are to rocky and steep for the old farts.hay hoo life in the countryside never a dull moment.
That is a very good point about the open face helmet/full face one.You do get a total different response when you wear an open face helmet.People are much nicer to you.Mind in all the years i have been greenlaing and MTBing i have had much more hassle and grief on a cycle.
The documentary was quite biased though and, rather than look at the wider issues of access, erosion, the history etc, it made a meal of that one lane and various "personalities" involved in the conflict. It managed to portray most of the locals as a bunch of moaning nimby types and while they had some valid concerns it was lost in amongst the general vitriol and unwillingness to listen to common sense or come to some sort of compromise.
The Peaks rangers deserve a medal for having to put up with sort of stuff.
In my experience I receive lots more social engagement from green laners than I do from ramblers. It often seems that ramblers want to set themselves in opposition to anyone who isn't doing what they are doing.
I don't think I've ever had a sharp comment from a green laner, but I've had lots of "ding a ling where's your bell" type comments from walkers, despite the fact that I usually hail them with a 'hi there' as I approach at a pace designed to not cause alarm.
We all let ourselves down from time to time, and unfortunately we are usually judged by the worst actions of our peers.
You always get more of what you focus on, so just live and let live and be respectful to others.
i was barracked for using the ding a ling bell on my bike today by a rambler she said it should only be used by children and wasnt meant to make old people move out of the way.
said ding a ling bell was given to me at the opening of the littleborough canal path by sustrans with a loverly note on how to use it ( two dings when approaching pedestrians to make them aware of your pressence) always ( well mostly ) raises a smile from all concerned looks cute ( big and chrome) looks out of place ( on my O5) but it is effective
I reckon [b]all[/b] countryside users need to go on a PR offensive - there really is too much bad feeling going on. Going to get worse too with the population increasing and potentially less land for us to share.
gus - yes, I know where you are coming from! The elderly don't help themselves sometimes but I honestly believe that the locals from the village should be able to use the rights of way without fear.
Certainly years ago the Rambers Association were most vocal of their dislike of mountain bikes and would not entertain the idea of shared paths. That was back in the day when I supported Sustrans.
I've been intimidated by MX'ers when out on my own, I've also had mountain bikers try to run me off singletrack cos I was deemed too slow. Now use a bell, smile broadly and exchange pleasantries where possible. Not hard to do.
C-G,
A respectful attitude is all well and good but respect is earned in my book. Two different encounters with elderly ramblers :-
1) Riding nr Ogden Water & climbing a lane i saw a group of elderly ramblers ahead of me, going slowly uphill any way i shouted ahead "excuse me please" from around 70yrds away. Continued this til i was quite literally 10ft off their backsides and still loudly proclaiming "Excuse me please". One lady finally noticed me and said "you should have rung your bell!" When i - rather nonplussed - explained i didn't have a bell and that considering i'd been loudly shouting "excuse me!" and they hadn't heard me then what use would a bell be???
She laughed and said "i'm pulling your leg love, we're all deaf as posts, us!" 😳 We had a nice (if loud) chat and i went on my way.
Half an hour later i came upon a group of 5 elderly walkers all strung out across the path. Slowed down and said "excuse me please" again - nothing. Repeated this several times til i was right behind one chap and practically trackstanding. When i finally put my foot down he turned slowly to look at me, sneered and told me i shouldn't be there.
I pointed out the sign that said Public Bridleway and he told me if i tried to get past him he'd shove his stick through my spokes.
I told him he better have some good insurance then because if he damaged my bike and/or me i would drag him through the courts and that he really didn't want to replace a £2000+ bicycle!!!
So, two different incidents on the same day, guess which one stuck in my mind most clearly?
muddydwarf - I do sympathise! Thing is though that sometimes you just don't hear bikes coming up behind, particularly if there is wind noise. What really annoys me is people wearing headphones with a dog on an extending lead.
All I can say is that the elderly do get grumpy, presumably it's to do with not being as active as they used to be, knowing the body is slowing down.
It's also worth diffusing a situation, ie if something nasty is said then turn their words around.
Oh i understand that bikes are silent - which is why i'm not when approaching from behind. What irks me are the small minority who deliberately set out to antagonise because they don't like your mode of transport, threatening to 'spoke' someone is just silly posturing by a stupid old man. The good thing is he won't be around for ever.
Cinnamon Girl- I'm very touched by your sympathy for the elderly, but you still haven't addressed the following, as said by qusamc:
they should only be frightened on 2% of tracks, is it beyond them to stick to the tiny, microscopic 98% (+ plus open access etc) of tracks where they will be left in peace ? or isn't 98% enough for them (in the bigger picture of course)
Why can't the folk featured in the BBC4 programme be happy using the 98% of trails that the 4x4 enthusiasts are not allowed on? Surely all your concerns about the elderly not feeling safe or being pushed out of their hobby have already been more than addressed with the way access is already distributed?
If the path featured in the programme was very local to them they I assume it was already a BOAT when they moved there? I'm happy to be corrected if this isn't the case but I suspect it was, and had been for some time. So they shouldn't move next to a BOAT if they feel that strongly about vehicles using a lane that is designated for their use.
Cherpit lane has been a public vehicular road for decades. It's shown on the OS map as an ORPA - other road with public access.
This means it's on the HIGHWAYS AUTHORITY List of Streets that are maintainable at public expense - as will be all the tarmacced classified roads surrounding it - the 17 footpaths shown in the parish of Great Longstone are not on the list of streets, Still why walk on one of the 17 footpaths when you can walk on the only green lane open to motorvehicles instead 🙄
Also note that Dale Farm along chertpit lane has a caravan/camping site that resluts in caravans being towed along the lane! Significantly more difficult to pass than a solitary 4x4!
As for fear of traffic the lane terminates at both ends on busy classified tarmac roads with no pavement which will be subject to motor traffic travelling at 60mph!
I very much doubt the elderly local nimbys experience any genuine fear on cherpit lane and are quite adept at manipulating authority by claiming to be scared.
Duggan - but if a trail in their village is a BOAT, how can you [b]not[/b] expect them to use it? Surely they have the right to use that track and not be in fear of an accident/injury?
Now, as regards BOATS, I don't know how all that works ie designation can change etc. What would be interesting to know is the percentage growth of MXers being sold. Is this on the increase like mtb's are/were?
CG:
I think rather than them not using it, it's more a case that they should treat it as any other road.
We wouldn't see them getting away with campaigning against cars using paved roads they might like to walk along, so why should they have extra rights because there's no tarmac there?
I think it's absolutely wrong to take 'fear' into account when this sort of change is being campaigned for.
When out walking the dog I can get pretty fearful when I see an elderly driver approaching. Does that mean I should have a right to have elderly drivers banned from all the roads I walk the dog because of my 'fear'?
And note, it's technically not motocross, but enduro and trail bikes. You can road register a motocross bike, just as you could make a couple of changes to a downhill bike to ride trails; but you'd need about as many changes to the motocross bike as you would to the downhill bike for it to be good for that respective use - making it generally a waste of time.
There has been an increase in enduro bikes sold I'm pretty sure, but there has been an increase in popularity in (organised off road event) enduros.
There's now quite a lot less trail bikes available new than 20 years ago say, but then your average green laner probably won't be buying new as a 20 year old bike will do the job just fine - and it's going to get muddy and scratched up anyway.
As CG says, if the track is convenient to use then it is irrelevant that they have a myriad of other paths to choose from, unless one follows the same route. I don't care what percentage of trails are used by green laners as long as they don't run me over or make the trail impassable!
I think rather than them not using it, it's more a case that they should treat it as any other road.
We wouldn't see them getting away with campaigning against cars using paved roads they might like to walk along, so why should they have extra rights because there's no tarmac there?
Very fair point 🙂
Geebus, don't walkers come first in the pecking order on a boat though?
its not a BOAT - its on the List of Streets - therefore, in law, its an (unclassified) road (ie. not an A B or C road, but a road nonetheless)
A quick google suggests it's no different to anywhere else.
Which of course means to some degree people have priority - if you hit the old person walking in the middle of the road, you're the one that'll get done.
The best I could find was from a wararkshire country council PDF:
Motorised users are also reminded to pay particular due care and attention because other users, for example walkers, equestrians or
cyclists may be in the ‘middle of the road’.
The wording suggests nothing legal and merely a common sense warning (ie use of the word 'reminded', etc).
C-G
I doubt the majority of villagers are in genuine fear of using greenlanes.
I reckon Great Longstone must have at least 400 residents - only a handfull turned up to the meeting and it looked as though only around 40 turned up for the "take back the tracks" protest.
This suggests that those claiming to be in fear of using greenlanes are simply NIMBY extremists that want to ban activities that they don't take part in. The NIMBY villagers wishing to ban vehicles from the lane are probably a tiny minority of the population of the village. Let's hope so anyway - it would be truly scary if entire villages were populated with people as intolerant and selfish as those featured in the programme
a myriad of other routes
Sorry for being pedantic, but it's actually 'there are myriad other routes'. Myriad effectively means 'lots of'.
In relation to the campaign, the only reason I see that the residents aren't also targeting mountain bikers is that they have a total misunderstanding of what we like on a trail; as demonstrated by her insistence that the seemingly smooth, wide path was dangerous for cyclists.
The minute she's buzzed by a fast, full suss equipped rider on there is the minute she would expand her target I reckon.
at some point someone is going to get hurt and by their stood in the middle of the track waiving their arms about actions I suspect it'll be one of the walkers and it'll most likely be their own fault. this'll give all the NIMBY groups all the ammo they need to shut the park to off road vehicles. that will be a sad day for public access rights country wide.
I'm tempted to join the off road vehicle group despite not having a car or bike just to show my support.
I think more importantly podge, it would add some reason to the argument.
you join the off roaders, I'll join the green lane group and we'll bring them together.
