[Closed] Leading Large Group Rides - Your Experiences.

our rides sometimes get up to that, but typically are more like 8-15. when they get above 20 it can work brilliantly sometimes, when everyone is up for it and you don't get too many mechanicals, but when it goes bad....
25 is too many to do well as one group and get a 'good' ride in, even if there are 3 or so of you to work together and herd the cats, so i'd split it, and if you want to keep it mixed ability rather than 'a' or 'b' just do tallest to smallest and take every other rider or something.

When I was part of a uni club the rides were split into two based on speed and ability- pootlers and the normal ride. People picked which they preferred, we met up with the other group in the woods and we waited for whoever was slowest in each group.

We would ride as a big group on weekends, but on a Thursday evening time's probably a bit too tight to wait for that many folk.

Split it, fast and slow, smash or cruise etc.

My club generally split the groups by speed, however the medium group can sometimes have 30+ riders. When this happens we encourage people to try the (not much) faster group, but often split medium again to make it manageable.

It does mean you need a surplus of ride leaders. It also means you tend to ride with the same people each time, and not meet a lot of other club members, which does lead to fracturing / cliqueness, which ain't so good.

You could just try not to be so popular!

The tunnel hill trolls run a good system of markers and a sweeper for social paced rides. At each trail split / crossing / junction the leader will drop a marker (2nd rider in the line) who'll then direct the rest of the group through; the rider in 3rd is now second and becomes the next marker, etc. The sweeper does just that, allowing the markers to filter back in as he reaches them. They can then either sit in until the regroup, or buzz past the back markers offering 'encouragement' and advice.

It means that longer sections can be ridden in one hit so although there is some waiting, there are fewer stops overall. And experience suggests it's the number of stops that is more maddening in a big group as opposed to a few maybe slightly longer ones.

As long as the sweeper changes a few times each ride as well, everyone gets a decent ride.

as i have said before - you need to split them.

its rad that people like the club and trails
but
its not really sustainable for the trails used. especially during winter

You could just do 2 groups on different sides of the park meeting at teh tower half way for a chat.

to be honest one of the reasons i dont attend is i dont find it fun riding in such a big group. much better for me meeting a smaller group of a weekend/alternative evening

the mixed ability group, i think, is a good thing. you already have a 'faster'ride group on a different day.

Thanks for feedback so far - anyone else got opinions/experiences on managing large groups?

Split, it's generally more fun with less pressure for those slower too. The big group I used to ride with would normally stick together but splinter at points for tech/fitness/bonkers route choices. I've been on one crazy group ride where the front caught the back on some hard to make out woodland single tracks and ended up doing an extra lap...

Some hands free radios make things much less stressful (in a big group 1 at the front, one at the back and a couple in the middle) for mechanical/accidents so you can either split and retire or get the group to wait.

I'd say split it up into at least 2 groups. A large group means nobody enjoys themselves, the faster riders end up waiting all the time and then get bored. The slower riders feel under pressure to keep up.

I used to attend a ride of about 20 and I stopped going, it was just too many people blocking up the trails.

Ha ha yes, rode past you guys at the pylon last Thurs. At a guess there were 30+ riders! Aren't you just constantly stopping for breaks / food / mechanicals / punctures with that many riders? Good on your for organising it all though. Splitting seems sensible if you can get more leaders.

While I'm here, watch out for trail sabotage - someone has broken up on side of the earth /log rollovers on the big dog side (by the bluebells) and if you approach them from the east you won't see it until it's too late. They'd dragged a couple of trees across the trail further up too but at least you can see those coming.

theotherjonv - Member

The tunnel hill trolls run a good system of markers and a sweeper for social paced rides. At each trail split / crossing / junction the leader will drop a marker (2nd rider in the line) who'll then direct the rest of the group through; the rider in 3rd is now second and becomes the next marker, etc. The sweeper does just that, allowing the markers to filter back in as he reaches them.

Exactly how I used to run motorbike group rides, works a charm for that. I've never used it for pushbikes, I can see it being a wee bit more troublesome- breaks up people's flow and ends up with fast riders behind slow, and you get more wee breaks and stops. But it stops people getting lost or left behind

(I always used to lead the rides from the back- the person at the front only needs to know the way and roughly how fast to go, the person at the back has to deal with all the problems. Having people in the middle with the capacity for rational thought was a gift too.)

more than three is a faff. how do you get anywhere with 30!!!

I sometimes lead Troll rides as Jon says the marker dropping process works fine. It takes a while to train the group but as long as the sweeper tells the markers to go and stays at the back it works fine.

If faster riders filter through its fine - don't forget it's a social ride so chatting is allowed!!

Thanks for the heads up on the damage with intent to hurt riders, jimification.

There has been an injury to a rider caused by the 'down' side of a rollover on a 3ft tree being removed in another part of the park so everyone should be taking care at the moment and not riding things blind.

I'd be inclined to split it, 10 good, 15 manageable, 20+ is too many for one group really.

Not only does it become frustrating for the faster riders, its pressure on the slower ones and makes any mechanicals or punctures a nightmare.

Unless all members are regulars, fairly evenly matched and know the route then you need at least a leader and a sweeper at the back, but ideally a middle-man/roamer as well to pass messages and herd if needs be.

light cheapo talky-walkies can be a good idea for a big group though so that the front, middle and back can stay in contact without having to stop so much, say there's some back markers struggling, or a puncture, you can call forward and let the front keep moving but they can go at a slower pace to allow the rear to catch up again, or take a minor detour loop or something, but it allows the group to keep moving and can avoid the too-many-stops syndrome that big groups can suffer from.

I've had the misfortune to be involved in big group rides a few times. I very rapidly realised that kind of riding is not for me. Six or under is best. Up to 8 or 10 is OK as long as the group is of similar ability. Beyond that, I'm OOT.

In almost every place I've ever ridden it's nuts to ride in groups any bigger than say 4-6 riders, especially if there's just one 'guide'. Asking for trouble, not just with managing the group but in terms of user conflict, sustainability etc etc. Big groups are causing real problems with local residents where I live and ride.

I've been on some of your bigger rides, just to add, I think you guys do a great job. 😀

The big group needs to be split into 3 I think. It's fun but a bit much when the numbers get 12+

more than three is a faff. how do you get anywhere with 30!!!

Agreed.

Split the ride into eight or nine groups based on ability, with strict regulation based on Strava times but including a promotion and demotion system.

Or at least into fast, medium and newbies/biffers.

theotherjonv - Member

The tunnel hill trolls run a good system of markers and a sweeper for social paced rides. At each trail split / crossing / junction the leader will drop a marker (2nd rider in the line) who'll then direct the rest of the group through; the rider in 3rd is now second and becomes the next marker, etc. The sweeper does just that, allowing the markers to filter back in as he reaches them.

I can see it being a wee bit more troublesome- breaks up people's flow and ends up with fast riders behind slow,

+1 for the Trolls system, it works great. The faster riders don't get stuck at the back for long, on the next fire road/wide bit you can power your way back to the front pretty quickly, and as the whole group is moving at the same average pace the faster riders actualy get more out of it as they have to sprint back through the pack to get to the front again. Which odly makes the front feel like the slowest pace when you get there and quite happy to mark a turn and drop back so you can hammer it again, and you can hammer it bcause you never have to worry about leaving the slowest person behind.

20+ was common, 30+ not uncommon, no idea what the maximum was. The big group and momentum definately made it more fun than the average '5 blokes, stoping at the top and bottom of each hill' pace.

There's also usualy 4x rides a week, which helps, depending on how fit you are the big Tuesday night ride might be our quieckest ride of the week, or recovering before the Thursday fast ride.
Monday - pace of the slowest/least fit/most injured , but they're expected to be suffering. Usualy a bit slower than Tuesday.
Tuesday - everyone/average.
Thursday - Slow and fast groups (Fast is actualy fast, mostly XC racers, the slow is still a good average)

If there's a mechanical then most of the group carries on, does a short loop and comes back in 5 minutes.

It does work best with big groups though, you need a lot of people so that the slowest person still has someone ahead of them within sight.

if you are all mates it doesnt matter about mechanicals, waiting, sessioning etc as long as you all get back to the pub at the same time.
mind you it is me they are generally waiting for, so i may have a different view.
saying that i go on the rides to ride with my mates, and they invite me along because they like a laugh 😉

Another reason why big groups are bad is the conflict that happens when they come in contact with traffic because drivers find them hard to pass. It doesn't matter if it's roadies or mountain bikers, somebody always gets upset and then inevitably one or two of the cyclists become self-righteously agressive and abusive. It's the reason why I don't ride with clubs any more, road or off road.

[i]Thanks for feedback so far - anyone else got opinions/experiences on managing large groups? [/i]

Wear an extra layer.

Took a +20 group out on Saturday on my local trails - loads of waiting around, especially after climbs. I just made sure that when the last rider got to the waiting group, that we left. 🙂

I used to lead rides from the shop but we started getting 25+

and it was like herding cats as you couldnt reliably use the small singletrack anymore as people got split up, took wrong lines etc.

Also where you got to technical stuff a lot of riders believe they are better than they are, I took a few to the top of a disused quarry and pointed out three line options, I told them that see how they feel about the lines and pick one they feel confident about, as a guide I took the middle one, well the egos took hold and the newbies took the steep line only ending up in a finger being snapped off in a crash.

Also I have stopped riding with a few groups now as they take too many on sensitive areas, I was told to **** off from a group as I said taking more than a dozen riders over Ilkler moor will only draw attention to the problems we face in keeping access open.

Now I go solo or a couple of friends.

Dont want to get in to all the politics moaning etc that goes with a large group.

I didn't know it as 'trolls', I knew it as the cornerman system. It's a fantastic way of getting a group of bikes out together on a ride. Lets people ride both fast and slow, but I'm not sure how well it would work on singletrack as passing opportunities are more limited

Split into two groups sounds like the best option

I dont agree with large group rides, and I dont see that it works for anyone.

Walkers/horses get very intimidated.

Riders turn it in to a mini race at the front and the standard of riding becomes iffy ie locking wheels/showing off, and then they have to stop for stragglers which frustrates them. People at the back struggle to keep up and get frustrated. Mechanicals slow the group down.

Pointless.

Probably a group of 6 or so is my max, then it just gets faffy, and you get in peoples way

I didn't know it as 'trolls', I knew it as the cornerman system. It's a fantastic way of getting a group of bikes out together on a ride. Lets people ride both fast and slow, but I'm not sure how well it would work on singletrack as passing opportunities are more limited

No need for anyone to stop on the ST though, only where it meets the fire road or leaves it again. So if you're quick you'll be making up a lot of places on the fire roads, especialy as it tends to result in quite close riding, and not having to do much corner marking, it usualy tended to be mostly the same 5-6 faces marking all the corners, the rest you just rode as hard as you could/wanted and occasionaly found yoruself at the front.

It does work well, and pushes you to ride faster as you're always overtaking or being overtaken, rather than in a small group where you tend to settle into an order with the fast guys bombing off ahead and the slow guys picking their way allong behind.

I sometimes get involved in large rides, but as its once per month its almost more of a social get together sometimes.

For a weekly ride I think I'd run a slow group and a fast group on different days, or same day different leaders.

FunkyDunc - the rides in question here are all night rides in a local wooded park area and the only other people encountered tends to be shop rides, small groups and solo riders.

Reading the views on here I think us Brightonians must have had past lives as cat herders! Even in winter there's often 8+ riders and 15+ is the norm as it gets drier. There were 29 of us last week and I thought we should split the ride but to be honest everything ran very smoothly. I think us having the woods pretty much to ourselves and the trails being in a relatively small area and tightly packed makes a big difference - any mechanicals and we usually just ride another loop without repeating any trails.

At each singletrack segment we're pretty good at running it fastest first, slowest last, with a leader, some middle markers and a back marker. But I think once at 25 we should split into two groups. The issue with that is how to split the groups? Fastest up is not fastest down!

20+ was common, 30+ not uncommon, no idea what the maximum was.

I remember more than 50 turned up for a recce ride of Minley a week or so before Torq 12:12 one year. It didn't really work.

Most of the 20-30 person Troll rides I went on ran smoothly enough though, occasionally one would descend into endless faff or mechanical hell, but not too often.

You've got to split by speed uphill IMHO. That's what causes the most hanging around. Downhill, people quickly work out a pecking order of who should go first.

Keeping everyone happy on a group ride is always going to be very difficult, and the bigger the group the harder it will be. As someone earlier said, anything over three is too many...

I do feel though that fitter riders could help themselves more - rather than just hang around chatting and getting cold at the top of each hill, we could be practising skills etc.

Riders turn it in to a mini race at the front

There is defiantly a bit of this which goes on in our club 😆

We used to have 10 out with us regularly every Wednesday. End of last year it climbed to 15. Now were approaching 25+

Some people have stopped coming why that is I don’t know. The group is a good one. Lots of like minded folks out for a ride together. Always waiting for the last man. Some piss taking some fun and some nice riding around Calderdale. I agree you can get people with massive egos showing off and yes comparatively some rides can be “boring” to others but at the end of the day its all a bit of variation and it all seems to work out.

If your after a fast ride then I would suggest you need a club that runs fast rides. If your club does then you need to make it clear to folks that they need to up their game. If you’ve got people that are out for a social ride then I think you need to accept that it may not be as fast or as exciting as if you were on your own. However the benefit is your riding with people that you like.
If you don’t like riding with people, don’t like being slowed down or missing out on that super technical bit then id suggest you might not like riding with a club. As br says take an extra layer and its all fine.

Yes there will always be a mechanical or two. Sometimes it can get a bit annoying that somone hasn’t bothered to sort their bike out (we used to have somone who would turn up with flat tyres every week!) we eventually took the micky enough they started with a well maintained bike. Encouragement as well as berating people works as well I think. Ia lso think lots of small stops are a lot better than one big one as it keeps the group together easier.

The “second man dropoff system” as its known works well but everyone must understand it. Failure to “drop off” means you can loose half the group.

Riders turn it in to a mini race at the front

There is defiantly a bit of this which goes on in our club

Is this not the whole point? 😉

Now were approaching 25+

Some people have stopped coming why that is I don’t know.

These two statements could be related.

Or was that the point you were making anyway?

Hey Ronnie, I know I don't get over that often anymore but for what it's worth I think you lot do a great job of keeping it all together. I think the idea suggested above with dropping 'markers' off could work really well. But also I reckon if you have that many people splitting the group into two at the beginning and still using that system would also work well. Just make sure that you still get a good mix of riders in each group or the fast will always ride together and the slower riders will always get lumped together. I think one of the best features of your rides is the mixed ability and it does give people the chance to improve their skills by riding with better riders.

The other thing I do now is not to have the same person backmarking all the time. Change that person every twenty minutes and make it a condition of coming along so that EVERYONE gets to have a go at it.

Bung me an email if you want to discuss it further....

+1 for the marker system - it works a treat

I can see how the marker/2nd man/cornerman/tailgunner system would work when you factor in fire roads etc, I guess it depends on where you are. Anything narrow, technical and downhill would mean the faster guys coming up behind the slower guys, putting the slower guys at under pressure

When I went to Cannock - using this as a well known reference point - I stopped quite a bit to let the faster guys through, it was clear they were there and in the most case where polite and well behaved. There are fire road type climbs but stopping on narrower sections is a little annoying as you have to pull over, and then carry on again. When it's a group that goes through that's usually it, but when its the same person/people not sure how fun that would be

To be clear - I'd be one of the slower guys on the ride! And I've not tried it on a MTB. When I've used the system on a motorbike I found I was regularly overtaking others, often the same people, but it meant I had fun trying to make progress up to the front and overtaking others on a road is easy as there's so much space. You don't really put them under pressure as there's always a gap on a motorbike.

I'd like to try it though, in the right place it would be brilliant I'm sure, and I found it created a real 'group spirit'

I can see how the marker/2nd man/cornerman/tailgunner system would work when you factor in fire roads etc, I guess it depends on where you are. Anything narrow, technical and downhill would mean the faster guys coming up behind the slower guys, putting the slower guys at under pressure

1/ You'd be surprised at how good the faster guys* are at passing. It's racecraft for them in 'local' races, and is worth practising (passing and being passed).

2/ It gives them the chance to give words of encouragement to less able riders. OK, on a Trolls ride they can often be NSFW words of encouragement, bordering on the abusive and in some cases suggesting unholy and illegal acts, but that says more about the Trolls than the system.

3/ It's a good system for a social ride of mixed abilities. As long as people know that's what the ride is they can't complain about the overall pace and abilities (although as above they might comment in unsavoury terms as a form of motivation).

4/ If you want a ride only for head down balls out fast as you can effort, go on a fast ride, or organise it yourself if the club doesn't have one.

* Guys and They used to denote he or she interchangeably in the context of a trolls ride. Generally the lady riders give out abuse which is slightly more intense and personal.

Urgh - typos in my post and no way of editing them out, annoying!

Sounds like a sensible set up then, NSFW banter and encouragement always helps 😀

b r - Member
Thanks for feedback so far - anyone else got opinions/experiences on managing large groups?

Wear an extra layer.

Took a +20 group out on Saturday on my local trails - loads of waiting around, especially after climbs. I just made sure that when the last rider got to the waiting group, that we left.

Have a heart Bruce! We were full of beer and haggis (or I was anyway) - Glenn 🙂