There is NO WAY ON EARTH the welds failed first. If they had, the tubes would still be straight
I too have revised my opinion. It's clear to me that the bends and weld failures would have occured at approximately the same time. Although this hardly matters as it was a frontal impact big enough to bend the front end that did it.
IME you can have crashes that seems slow/low impact that do as much damage as the big ones. Light frames break. I go over the bars a fair bit without frame damage...on my Heckler!
PeterPoddy - that looks exactly like my old KHS Team frame - I rode into a 6" tall Landrover wheelrut and bent the downtube exactly like that. I told KHS' importer in the UK what had happened, and they offered me a crash replacement, which I figured was more than fair enough. This would have been in about '96.
Yeah, Sanderson offered me crash replacement too, but I'd already ordered my 853 Inbred.
How big is this mate of yours?
Yes that had occoured to me as well.
🙂
Race frame should be able to withstand small trail impacts
It's not the small impact that counts. It's come to a dead stop somehow and like I've already said it doesn't have to be very much of an obstacle to achieve said dead stop. You'd be amazed at the tiny root that had me over the bars at CyB.....
🙂
12 stone whippet - was in 4th at the scottish champs on the last lap at the time so its fair to say he was fairly light/fit
12stone is light now. Cool. Made me feel better today anyhow.
12stone is light now.
Sorry brant but from normal people point of view, 12 St is big 😉
it is when your above 6 foot 😉 and im sticking to it .... im 12 stone at 6 foot 3 ....
12st isn't whippet light, 9st is! And 4th at the Scottish Champs in Vets?
Is an odd failure given the description of the incident, but it might have been the culmination of a few crashes or such. Nice of Kona to offer a crash replacement, especially since their warranty states void if raced.
(Mr M-C, former metallurgist posting)
as other respondents have said there is no way a bending force could have been applied to the tubes if the welds failed first. As Brant commented look at the amount of bending on the top tube-the top tube weld has held on for dear life long after the down tube has bent to the extent that its weld has failed.
Ive seen frames fail in a similar manner in what look fairly innocuous situations, you dont need a huge amount of speed or a massive impact to apply a massive bending moment that will break a frame. Last one I saw was on a trailquest type event where the riders front wheel stopped dead in a drainage rut at the side of the trail.
Breaking bikes and bits sucks but I'd say that blurry, badly composed pic is an advert FOR Kona's weld quality.
How can warranty be void if raced. Its sold as a race frame!
Thats why I think crash replacement offered.
Shuld have bought carbon...
Mr M-C,
Thanks for that explanation. Far better than my ramblings, and now I see what Brant meant too.
🙂
MS, maybe the crash replacement was offered because it was [b]crash damage[/b].
Shuld have bought carbon...
...because carbon frames don't break? 🙄
warranty specifically says void if raced.
they can sell you a race frame with a warranty but if you race it no warranty.
How can warranty be void if raced. Its sold as a race frame!
I think you're confusing an express warranty by the manufacturer with an implied warranty, such as the "fit for purpose" definition that gets bandied about a lot.
If the warranty is defined by the manufacturer then they can impose whatever limitations they like, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Some manufacturers offer really comprehensive warranties.
I remember that when Banshee started up, some models in their line-up had a "if you break it, we will warranty it" policy. However these were not XC race frames.If you're arguing that a lightweight race frame isn't "fit for purpose" if it can't withstand what looks like quite a meaty frontal impact, I'm not sure you're correct.
MS, maybe the crash replacement was offered because it was crash damage
Read the whole thread.
Thats the thing, basically everyone has said on here something along the lines of "meaty frontal impact" from the damage.
But what if it was not? Big Impact = Big Damage (Usually)
Small Imapct = Big Damage ( Not usually)
supose its just sods law really. He was unlucky
But what if it was not?
12 stone, fast rider, crash sent him over the bars... hmmm, not seeing much in your posts to support this hypothesis to be honest.
This thread has just made me really paranoid as we had a big frontal impact on the tandem the other day - misjudged a foot high rock step and hit it hard enough to bottom the fork with a clang rather than hopping over it. No cracks or bends in the frame - phew. Crank n fail in being strong shock
TJ, be afraid, VERY afraid.
At least you'll be wearing a helmet when it does let go won't you?
😉
step back a bit - a frame folds when you hit a root?
I certainly wouldn't want to ride a frame that did that
step back a bit - a frame folds when you hit a root?
No. A frame folds when it comes to a dead stop suddenly, which happenes to be caused by a root, and chucks the rider over the bars.
Keep up at the back!
😉
I smacked one of Brant's finest into a downed tree a few years back, didn't hit [i]that[/i] hard but bust the down tube. I thought a half price crash replacement was bloody good value TBH and bit Brant's arm off for it, didn't even cross my mind that the frame might not be "fit for purpose" stuff bikes into things and they sometimes break...
No. A frame folds when it comes to a dead stop suddenly,.
SOMEONE IS TO BLAAAME!!
crap rider by the sounds of it
[i]Shuld have bought carbon... [/i]
That is very dangerous advice. If the carbon does fail, you then get splinters in your body, and because these are barbed they migrate towards the heart. You'll end up having whole limbs amputated just to save your life. That doesn't happen with aluminium.
C'mon people, what are you on about, just because it's a race frame doesn't mean that it makes it ok to snap like that!
I've ridden flat out into tree stumps, roots, trees, logs etc at various times over the last 10 years, the bike stops dead, I go over the bars. It's always been on light XC bikes, and none of them have folded in half!
Unless this was a truly mammoth impact that shouldn't have happened IMO.
This thread has achieved one thing, I would never touch a scandium Kona with a barge pole!
njee spot on!
This thread has achieved one thing, I would never touch a scandium Kona with a barge pole!
Agree!!!
The impact does not justify the damage IMO. yes there was an impact but from a route on the trail. If every spill ended in a frame snapping like that then what would be the point in getting a race bike. I race a carbon bike, no problems so far (touch wood). Will look out for thos submarine splinters!!
And if people say crap rider, you can just prove your point in results...
I find it very hard to believe that just failed from just riding over a root. As with all these things we can all sit behind our keyboards and offer an opinion but unless you were there...
Who's to say an impact before the race didn't already cause some stuctural damage?
As for the rider proving his skills with his results is nonsense, even the best riders in the world stack from time to time.
I crashed a Kona into the back of a parked car... the frame's fine (I'm still riding it 2 1/2 years later) although the fork was knacked. My advice is, if you're gonna crash a Kona, make sure it's a Hoss 😀
I've ridden flat out into tree stumps, roots, trees, logs etc at various times over the last 10 years, the bike stops dead, I go over the bars. It's always been on light XC bikes, and none of them have folded in half!
It's not that simple though - if you know you are about to go over the bars your weight is probably high and there is less force going through the frame. In this scenario (which we know a teeny bit of not unbiased hearsay about) he was going down a steep slope - hence his weight was most likely low and far back - producing more force on the frame in the crash.
Whose frame is it? I used to race masters, most in the top ten can (& have to) ride technical stuff well.
I've ridden flat out into tree stumps, roots, trees, logs etc at various times over the last 10 years, the bike stops dead, I go over the bars. It's always been on light XC bikes, and none of them have folded in half!
Two people on this thread, PP and I, have had that happen. Your own experience is not proof that it doesn't happen.
Let's go over a few things.
* MS' mate crashed it. We don't know a great deal about the crash, and from what I gather MS wasn't there in person to see it.
* MS' mate was racing at the time.
* MS' mate bought it in the US. Not the UK, the US. He then took it to Paligap in the UK, and asked for a replacement.
* Paligap offered a crash replacement, even though they were not the merchant, had no contract with MS' friend and were not the manufacturer.
* MS is now on an internet forum offering his opinion about it all.
* Not everyone agrees with MS.
brant - Member
> http://www.ragleybikes.com/2009/07/how-strong-is-the-blue-pig-frame/
br />
Interesting in the blue pig page (not the CEN one) - "...lighter guage seatstays can be used to promote sublime ride quality."
Have you not previously said that rear triangle stiffness has little effect on ride quality?
Cynic-al is talking far too much sense in his last 2 posts....
😉
YOU LOVE IT!!!
bent_adder just to clear things up,
He did not go to paligap, he went through Kona USA and the shop he bought it from. They then referred it on to paligap.
Offering my opinion, just like everyone else is. Free country is it not. Like to hear peoples views, and as you can read I changed mine half way through.
And to be honest there is no way of measuring how big the impact was, where his weight was, etc. Kona say not their problem (rightly or wrongly).
But it does make you think how strong is your frame??
MS - MemberHow can warranty be void if raced. Its sold as a race frame!
Thats why I think crash replacement offered.
Shuld have bought carbon...
Check your warranty... The Orbea marketing says the Alma is designed for racing, Absalon races one, yet the warranty doesn't cover it in the event of accident when racing... (But I guess Absalon won't have these problems!!)
Regarding the OP, I think I'd need a better photo before advising whether it's rideable or not!
But it does make you think how strong is your frame??
It makes me think lightweight frames are risky and Kona lightweight frames moreso...I'd rather have a 3.75lb frame in one piece than a 3.25lb in in two pieces...and that 1/2 lb is not losing the guy any races...
He can't have been going that fast riding a girl's bike?
I too would suggest that was a massive frontal impact that caused bending, then weld breakage afterwards. Ouch. And it depends what roots you ride into, a root whos top is at hub-height will stop the wheel dead, putting MAHOOOSIVE bending loads on the area we see bent here. Light and strong can be massaged a bit in frames, but ultimately you cannot have extremes of both together. I'd accept I'd killed it and move on.
He did not go to paligap, he went through Kona USA and the shop he bought it from. They then referred it on to paligap.
Ah. So all that advice and links to BERR is a little pointless, then. 🙂
Offering my opinion, just like everyone else is. Free country is it not.
Yup. I'm offering mine, too. As you say, it's a free country.
Like to hear peoples views, and as you can read I changed mine half way through.
You have. Bravo.
And to be honest there is no way of measuring how big the impact was, where his weight was, etc. Kona say not their problem (rightly or wrongly).
Yup. And various people on here have offered offered opinions. Quite a few of them, as I pointed out, diverge from yours.
But it does make you think how strong is your frame??
Does it? Oh. I'm pretty sure it made me think something else entirely.
Hard to see from the pics, but our EUCC man Tom has snapped 2. This one went at the top tube-seat tube weld:
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=49727&threadid=2015774
My point from the first time this got posted now I've seen the pic definately stands, your mate hit a "root", got thrown off hard enough to break his shoulder, ripped his frame to pieces perhaps unsurprisingly in a crash big enough to cause broken bones, and you're wondering if the frame is to blame?
Wheels wouldn't be that stressed if it was straight on, and maybe you got lucky if the forks really aren't bent after that!
Loving the lolcats reference
He did not break any bones...
Ligament damage to shoulder. He is back on the bike now, may take a few more weeks before he can do off road
[s]The rider broke his shoulder in the same crash?[/s] Edit - just saw MS' post. I hope he gets better.
My apologies for someone else's mistake in the original thread stating he had broken his shoulder(blade?).
He was nevertheless seriously injured from the same impact. It was therefore clearly a pretty big impact that no XC race frame could be expected to cope with, and that very very few frames would be warranties for.
We can have a pretty good idea of the size of the impact from the state of the frame, too.
It's unfortunate that he got hurt and that he broke the frame, but it's not Kona or any of their agents' fault. IMHO, which seems to agree with the concensus.
It still could be a frame failure from a low impact that you would expect it to cope with but because of the frame failure the fall was heavy.
Just devils advocate
