Happened to my mate a few weeks back. In my opinion its a weld failure but Kona have "investigated" and said that its not warrantable.
Not bad for a 3 week old frame!!
I think he was basically told "these things happen", whats in for the rest of us then!!
If it was the welds that failed, then this is not meant to happen!!!
Some may have already seen this as I posted a few weeks back, but pulled it so that it would not interfier with the dealings with Kona. So feel free to have a look at a brand new frame!
This is just my opinion on the matter.
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What frame was it?
JRA?
Test your opinion against Kona's with Trading Standards or in the courts?
p.s. what's the number on the bike for? Was your mate racing at the time?
That's quite a lot of damage to the front triangle for a JRA - how did it happen?
I don't really see how it was a weld failure as the tt and dt clearly bent before the welds failed...and bent tubes generally means the frame has hit a force that was too big for it!
Suck it up I'm afraid. You'vbe not said how it broke.
higgo - MemberTest your opinion against Kona's with Trading Standards or in the courts?
Small claims court can be done for £50 for claims up to £5000 IIRC.
If the product is under 6 months old its up to the retailer - not the manufacturer to show that its not a manufacturing defect.
http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html
Kona Kula Supreme 2009. Scanduim Frame.
Yeah, Scottish SXC race. I think he has given up with them as all they were offering was crash replacement.
Edit - Bought from the states so adds a bit more hassle to it. I disagree with that, I think the welds failed then the top tube bend as it was then a crumpled mess.
I'm not quite sure what happened but it was not a big impact. He got pitched over the bars and the frame was in bits when he got back up. Think it was a route he hit wrongly on a steepish bit.
do not ride rooty downhill sections on a kona .....
too mee that looks like bb weld went and the bike colapsed bending the top tube ....
when you see the welds its the actual welds that have broken not even the HAZ round them ! its so clean its like they have been cut !
Weld failure?????
2 tubes bent like noodles?
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This is just my opinion on the matter.
So. Let's get this straight:
Frame bought from US
Used for racing (ie - going fast)
Crash on a 'steepish bit' sending him over the bars
And, given that, they offer a crash replacement, presumably discounted.
Seems bloody reasonable to me!!
(As a serial bike breaker, I know what I'm talking about)
But you have to think, the tubes can only bend if the are not attached to the seat tube.... If not they would have only snapped. So the weld really has to have failed for the tube to bend down the way.
I disagree - if the welds had failed first, the tubes would have bent the other way, no?
Peter, yeah in theory yes.
However its more the fact that it looks like a weld failure than an impact failure.
So my opinion is that it is not fit for purpose.
Crash replacement an option but would you ride another frame that did that?
So the weld really has to have failed for the tube to bend down the way.
No it doesn't. That's not bent DOWN, it's bent BACKWARDS from the head tube, by leverage from the fork. Would you like to see a frame I broke in just the same manner?
That's been hit hard enough to bend both tubes (Like mine was) and then carry on and rip the welds off.
NO WAY did the welds fail first.
BIG crash = broken bike.
Live with it!
🙂
finbar - Presumably since i was on a steep bit it would be unclear if the bike was the right way up after the weld snapped hence if the weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.
who's legal system would that fall under? Ordering from the states to the uk?
If it's the UK, small claims court, get your money back, job done. But did he pay tax when he imported it, could be difficult to explain if he dodged it...........
If its the US, write a polite letter mentioning a twinge in your neck that wont go away and expect multiples of the bies value.
Im not a lawyer.
Peter - did you damage the parts on your bike, funny how tyre, wheel, fork are perfectly fine. Wheel still true. To me they should be damaged to warrant that type of frame failure
BIG crash = broken bike.
peter you rode into a car .... this guy rode over roots !
[i]finbar - Presumably since i was on a steep bit it would be unclear if the bike was the right way up after the weld snapped hence if the weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.[/i]
Well, i wasn't there but like PP says i would imagine the only way to get enough leverage to bend the tubes like that would be to wallop the front wheel/fork. If the bike was upside down or back to front or something then there's no reason for the tubes to have bent in that location at all, even if the welds had failed.
Crash replacement an option but would you ride another frame that did that?
Yes. And I have done. You can't account for crashes.
🙂
EDIT - That particular frame was coincidently a Kona, too......
I agree with peter. That's been stuffed into something substantial enough to bend the tubes where they're designed to be strongest.
they were 28 spoke 1500 gram wheels also .... The bike litterally colapsed under the guy and he was thrown over the bars ! so possible the tubes bent when the bike was upside down. It also recieved quite a bit of manipulation to get it in the back of the pick up that took him off the hill to A&E
I think the bike just objected to having a classic Reynolds roadie tubeset number (531) and tried to shake it off. How did rider 853 get on? Did he die?
I would be astonished if either of those tubes bent after it snapped. I can't see where the bending forces would come from then.
peter you rode into a car .... this guy rode over roots !
No, he didn't RIDE over them, did he?
(I've been pitched over the bars by a root on a shallow slope just after a tiny (6in ?) step. The root was pointing toward me and must have been 2-3 inches long. I have a chunk missing from my nostril to prove that one....)
🙂
Exactly the same situation. Made worse by the fact it's a lightweight alloy race frame which is more brittle/snappable than my steel frame which was stronger and bendier
🙂
lucky the guys insured anyway and is having a nice orbea carbon frame to replace .... coke can is not an acceptable tubing material ....
gimmie easton tubes anyday like they used to id trust them
hence if the weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.
No way would the impact of the bike alone be enough to bend both tubes like that.
funny how tyre, wheel, fork are perfectly fine. Wheel still true
Frame took all the force - seen it many times.
It's a light racing frame, you pay your money and you take your choice. Interesting lesson in warranty, sounds like money off a new frame is a decent offer in the circumstances.
Just had a discussion with a guy I work with. Digging out some old uni notes!
I am now going back on my original statement! (ashamed now!) Look at the bending forces the welds would not have failed first. They probably failed because they were not designed to be pulled downwards. So i now think its not the welds that went first.
However I still think its not fit for purpose. No one will really no the extent of the impact but I doubt it was much bigger than any of us come across on a weekly ride. So I think Kona may want to look at tehre tubing and strength issues around that area!
Bikes should not snap from a trail mishap. Riding into a car then maybe so!
I am not an engineer, but I am very sceptical that the sequence was: rubbish welds - bike fell apart - crash - massive bending of tubes during crash.
To my untrained eye it certainly looks like failure after a frontal impact - and it is quite possible for the fork and wheel to be strong enough to take that impact while the frame doesn't. the question surely is "Is the frame fit for purpose" ie strong enough to take the loads you would expect of a mountainbike and was the frame made properly.
Someone with the right skills should be able to tell from the welds if they have been done properly. It does look to me like like the sequense of events is
Frontal impact
tubes bend
welds fail
States were cheaper for frame than UK hence buying there, so whatever the percentage off for crash replacemnt will be off RRP. Prob will still be over price he paid for it. Not worth it.
Someone with the right skills should be able to tell from the welds if they have been done properly. It does look to me like like the sequense of events is
Frontal impact
tubes bend
welds fail
Agree with that now
"States were cheaper for frame than UK hence buying there"
Nope its cause there wasnt 1 left in the uk in his size to buy ..... he phoned every dealer on the paligap list ....was offered a 2007 one at RRP mind ....
sjs frame couple fitment perhaps :d
frontal impact - maybe the wheel got stuck inbetween the 2 roots he was riding over 😀
Here you go -
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For those that don't know I rode into a parked car. Same effect as this crash. Bike comes to dead stop, rider over bars. Something a lot smaller than a car can have you over the bars, even the right sized dip in the floor can do it.
IDENTICAL method of frame failure to the Kona above: As the wheel/forks are pushed backwards they have a [b]LOT[/b] of leverage on the head tube which buckles the tubes upwards (My TT was pulled apart on it's upper surface too) Carry on like this a bit more and, hey presto, the frame looks like the Kona above and the welds are ripped apart. I'll hazzard a guess that the Kona is tougher round the head tube (Gussets, bigger tubing?) than at the DT/BB and TT/ST welds, hence that's why those gave out first.
There is NO WAY ON EARTH the welds failed first. If they had, the tubes would still be straight
weld went the bike could have landed any side up causing the two tubes to ben like that.
There is no way you could bend those tubes like that without BIG leverage, especially BOTH of them!
It's crash damage. Get over it. Suck it up. MTFU. Get the chequebook out. Stop making excuses. End of story.
Sorry kid, but dems da breaks...
🙂
States were cheaper for frame than UK hence buying there"
Nope its cause there wasnt 1 left in the uk in his size to buy ..... he phoned every dealer on the paligap list ....was offered a 2007 one at RRP mind ....
Was not aware of that!!
2007 at RRP, that is pretty shocking!
Glad its not my bike...
Still the damage into a parked car and that riding over a route, to me should be the pictures the other way around!
Race frame should be able to withstand small trail impacts. Parked car on the other hand, not sure if thats in the design specification! 😆
2007 at RRP, that is pretty shocking!
Mark ill give you 2 guesses who offered him that 😉
Top tube/seat tube weld looks like it hung on for quite a while!
How big is this mate of yours?
Double post
Replacement frame at cost sounds pretty good to me, bearing in mind you're talking about crash damage. If [s]you[/s] your friend doesn't feel confident riding a Scandium Kona frame after their crash, they can always sell it on.
From the blurry pic, it looks like a large frontal impact which bent the top and down tubes at the butting and then snapped the welds.
Bearing in mind your friend bought the frame in the US, they have little to no consumer protection over here - see BERR link above - as it wasn't bought here. Frankly, you're lucky Paligap has offered your friend crash replacement. See here: [url= http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/know-your-rights/overseas/ ]overseas rights advice.[/url]
I don't know about Kona, but I've got an Orbea Alma with a lifetime warranty. So far, so good, but they stipulate that the frame is NOT covered if it breaks while being raced.
I haven't read the whole thread so maybe have missed something, but I would guess that it might be the same with Kona. You race, you invalidate the warranty. Next time take the number off!
PeterPoddy - that looks exactly like my old KHS Team frame - I rode into a 6" tall Landrover wheelrut and bent the downtube exactly like that. I told KHS' importer in the UK what had happened, and they offered me a crash replacement, which I figured was more than fair enough. This would have been in about '96.
