Damn my career in clairvoyance, was very short lived. I guess my concern that 'somethings not right on the internet', was not strong enough for me to read each of the previous posts. I commend your desire to argue all these things out, and will feel suitably foolish for making frivilous off hand comments without knowing all the facts (again!). All power to you big man 😉
So if a child runs up and slaps or grabs at my dog when its on a leash, can i slap the parent?
Don - you still miss my point. Of course you have the same rights I do - but your dog does not. A dog has no rights. Only a human has rights. I touch your dog what law would you prosecute under?
Out of control is not clear in law but looking around both the various doggy sites (kennel club and so on) and such things as the access code its pretty clear that a reasonable definition would be that it is either on a lead or comes to heel or drops at command.
I never said I have the right to attack a dog without justification - the justification is if it runs at me and the owner won't control it and a shout at the dog won't stop it then I have the right to kick it - as often as need ed to make it run away.
I have no duty to do anything beyond alerting the dog owner to my presence in a reasonable amount of time. As for stopping and getting off the bike - utter piffle.(unless the path is too narrow to pass safely) I have the right to ride my bike without being bothered in anyway by a dog.
If someone hurts (badly) a dog without justification then the law could be involved.
[url= http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1210683175951&ssbinary=true ]http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1210683175951&ssbinary=true[/url]
I guess that its like anything else - kick it to make it run away is fine, chasing after it with a big stick is not.
Sorry TJ, that was directed at aracer.
Still totally inaccurate though, and not at all refuting the point I made. I think you really need to go back and re-read, as I was asking for an example of TJ going up to a dog which wasn't disturbing him and attacking it, and you say: "Regarding TJ, he said that he has the right to attack dogs without justification." None of the posts of his you quote is either an example of what I was requesting, or supports your allegation.
Therefore my point still stands - it's not the cyclists causing the problem, as dogs on leads wouldn't be bothered by them at all.
Keep your dog on a lead and there is no problem.
Let your dog off its lead and you have to accept that we cyclists have the right to defend ourselves.
My girlfriend goes horse riding and she's had trouble with dogs. She threatened to horsewhip a guy once because his dog kept going for a pony being ridden by a 10 year old girl.
The dog does not have to be on a lead - but must be properly trained and under control if it is not. I know dogs that will chase anything - but a shout of d
"down" and they stop instantly. thats fine
ah, you softie europeans.
to put things into a more worldly perspective, last time i was met by an angry dog off its chain - while just outside sa pa - my companion drew his pistol, shot it, and left the corpse neatly by the side of the track for the owner to collect.
in his defense, rabies is always a worry and you can't discuss matters calmly with a potentially rabid dog.
anyway, dog is good to eat and a popular dish in the highland villages. it tastes like tough beef. the horrid bit comes when the dog is beaten prior to death to 'tenderize the meat'. it's a little gross.
Getting back to the OP troll's point that it doesn't help. It does. Fortunately bleeding heart liberals and the crazy PC brigade have not infiltrated the dog's ranks yet, probably because of a language barrier or something. Dogs understand pack mentality and ranking. If aggression is not met with higher aggression the dog sees itself as your boss and more worryingly it learns that aggression is a handy tactic to gain ascendancy. A swift reminder of who is boss lets the dog know in a language it understands perfectly. This may give the dog a fear of cyclists or other humans in future but that is not the fault of the rider or any other human bar the owner who let the dog off without control in the first place.
Personally I shout very loudly at an aggressive dog. This works most times. Violence is the last resort but I have punched a couple. These were dogs that were attacking my dog whilst it was on a lead and minding its own business. On the bike I have never experienced an aggressive dog. I slow down or stop and talk to the dogs. It seems to work but then I am a dog person who has owned/bred dogs all his life. They seem to sense a dogwise person.
i once owned a dog with bombers. used to beat the f*ck out of anyone who kicked him in the face
Sorry Don, but I really fail to see your arguments here. What you're saying is that you have the same rights as any other person. Correct.
And therefore you have the right not to be intimidated by another persons animal, that is supposed to be under their absolute control in a shared usage area. As do I.
I do not have an irrational fear of dogs, I have a healthy fear of dogs. Riding along a trail I will slow down and leave a respectful space between myself and any animal, make my presence known either verbally or with a bell, to intentionally make sure it remains unspooked, unaggressive and is aware of my presence. That is as much as I need to do to demonstrate reasonable behaviour on my part. What I will not do is ride up to the owner, tap them on their shoulder and say "excuse me, just letting you know that I do have a fear of dogs due to having being bitten by them twice as a child. I would therefore be appreciative if you did not let your dog run at me as I ride along this trail."
The reason I wouldn't, and do not need to do this is that it's implicit in the law that it is not my responsibility to control someone elses dog. It is the owners responsibility. It is also not my responsibility to inform other trail users of my fear of dogs, again, it is the dog owners responsibility to be aware that others may not realise their gentle dog is not necessarily viewed like that by others.
Sure, you don't take your dog to trail centres and races. But it's your responsibility to control your dog at all times when in the presence of others. I'm afraid if you can't do that, you have even fewer legs to stand on that heather mills.
Well put PK ripper.
[i]i once owned a dog with bombers.[/i]
que?
[i]used to beat the f*ck out of anyone who kicked him in the face[/i]
imaginative little soul, aren't you?
Whats a troll? Is it a breed of dog?
i own and walk a dog of it's lead on the south downs. his behaviour is perfect and does exactly as he is told. he has never gone for another person or animal. i do have problems with some dog owners when walking him as he has been attacked by other dogs. I had to strangle a german shepherd on one walk as this thing was really attacking and pulling lumps of fur out, while the dozy owner was just shouting "come on ruby, here girl". I told her to get it off or I will do it, she was clearly scared of her dog, so I grabbed it by the collar twisted it until it was choking and was no longer biting and threw the ****in thing at her. I have a problem with people that let their dogs off the lead and cannot control them. even more so with the owners that are scared of their dogs.
if a dog attacked my kids, i'd have the ****in owner just after i'd finished with the dog.
just off out to walk the dog.
don simon- you're in Spain right? TJ is in Scotchland right?
Ever thought there maybe a difference in law and social norms?
I see where TJ is coming from. In Scotland 'The access code' or Land Reform Act or whatever it's officially called, dogs have no rights. However there owners have the responsibility to stop them bothering other land users and wild animals.
Although the code is based on respect & consideration to others and as far as I know hasn't been challenged and decison made in court yet.
I wouldn't have a major problem if someone kicked my dog if he was aggresive towards anyone if he was off the lead or not under control! I would have a problem if someone kicked or hurt my dog if he hadn't done anything wrong, and that includes "saying hello"! If a dog was aggresive to me i would do what i had to do to protect myself, i've had dogs come at me in an aggresive manner and all i did was get off my bike and placed my bike between myself and the dog and that worked that time!
Surely kicked or hurting another animal for no reason is animal cruelty??
Off on a slight tangent but Imo I find horses more of a prob on trails than dogs, certainly where I ride, massively uncontrolable very dangerous they poop everywhere in huge quantitys and you pretty much have to get off to pass one! Give me a dog anyday, atleast a slobbery kiss won't kill you like a kick from a horse
100!
"Does the happy dance"
'Violence is the last resort but I have punched a couple'
Who punches a dog?? Lashing out with your foot whislt riding past, I can see. But stopping, dismounting and then perhaps kneeling to batter a terrier, that's just cold.
lokno hands - I agree with you about horses. However I come across horses every few weeks, dogs every few yards.
Strangely with horse you shouldn't use a bell 'cos it spooks them. I usually stop and get well out of the way for horse 'cos bikes often spook them. Its so rare that I see them that it realy isn't an issue.
I would have a problem if someone kicked or hurt my dog if he hadn't done anything wrong, and that includes "saying hello"!
I have no idea what a dogs intentions are as I am not Dr Doolittle.
TJ is absolutely right.
Recall is the major factor, if your dog does not come back if you call it then it should not be off of its lead. Ever.
I'm completely with muggomatic on this one, the owner is far more to blame than the dog.
devs - you're a bit out, I'm afraid. Violence is not the way to maintain dominance over a dog. It really doesn't work like that.
Hairyscary, i have no idea what the average person in the street is going to do these days but i don't go and punch or kick them just incase!
Hairyscary, i have no idea what the average person in the street is going to do these days but i don't go and punch or kick them just incase!
Want a biscuit?
Only if its a jammy dodger! WTF
pk-ripper, I think you'll find that I agree with you, not the first time I've said that, but I implore you to show me where I said you should ride up to the owner and tap them on the shoulder. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have read the whole thread...
Your behaviour seems perfectly rational, mutual respect.
lobby_dosser - Memberdon simon- you're in Spain right? TJ is in Scotchland right?
Ever thought there maybe a difference in law and social norms?
Good point, but I was brought up and educated in the UK. Ooops!
kinda666 - MemberHairyscary, i have no idea what the average person in the street is going to do these days but i don't go and punch or kick them just incase!
Lol.
Tags are quite interesting!!!
Kinda 666. I don't speak the language of 'bark/woof'.
Hairyscary, i don't speak the language of "Hi mate do you know xxx", no, ok then i'll punch you in the face and knock you over a wall with a 6ft drop! My stepson didn't quite get that one either!
'Good point, but I was brought up and educated in the UK. Ooops'
well you're arguing a point against tj who's technically correct.
I have no doubt that TJ is correct, maybe just needs to leave his bubble once in a while! 🙄
[url= http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=don+simon&word2=+tandemjeremy ]Unfortunately not[/url] 😯
I agree that kicking dog's doesn't teach them anything but....
Since when has it been the general public's duty to teach other peoples dogs how to behave?
If a dog owner can't properly train or control their dog, they deserve to be kicked.
The kicking of the dog would be in self defense and therefore perfectly acceptable in normal society.
However I come across horses every few weeks, dogs every few yards.
no wonder dogs are agressive towards you. you come across my dog and it'll take me ages to get it out his fur.
"Dorset Knob=Knob"
Class graffiti 🙂
if your dog does not come back if you call it then it should not be off of its lead. Ever.
That's most dogs IMO; not got one but known many - all friendly dogs and I have no problem with them running about chasing rabbits and generally enjoying being outside. Dogs have been part of our society for a long time and that's a good thing on the whole. Quite why anyone would want to have an large, aggresive dog is beyond me but of course some people want dogs like that as part of their image or something. I'd be happy to ban more dogs than are currently banned. Most gun dogs are fine though for some reason.
I hit a dog once and went over the bars and broke both wrists and smashed my face in. The dog owner said it was my fault because his dog wasnt on a lead and on a road. I took him to court and i had to take 50% of the blame!!! Dogs should be controlled on or off trails, if my dog got kicked by an mtber then fair enough, it might of been in the way.
devs - you're a bit out, I'm afraid. Violence is not the way to maintain dominance over a dog. It really doesn't work like that.
I never said that violence is the way to maintain dominance over a dog. It is a method to teach it not to attack you though. If it hurts it won't do it again willingly. It's why things like electric fences work.
Blimey, this thread certainly has legs....
Anyway, I think that we can sum this up as follows:
There are dog owners and responsible dog owners.
Quite clearly some are not the latter and therefore, IMO, should not be allowed to be the former.
I suspect Mr Knob got a bit upset by the other post concerning piedi di formaggio getting bitten
If that happened to me the dog would be launched into next week. I'm not bothered by dogs, and I'm more than happy for them to say hello.
However if it gets very aggressive and the owner can't or won't do anything to control their dog I will do something about it.
I'd be certain that 99.9% of people on here don't go round drop kicking dogs but if you have to protect yourself against an agressive dog to enable yourself to get away then a swift boot in the happy sacks may be in order.
If mine ever got aggrsive to anybody a swift kick in the ar$e wouldn't go a miss, but for no real reason I would have to administer a swift kick in the ar$e to the ar$e kicker!?
Who's that trip-trapping over my bridge?
lol at the tags
Blimey, this thread certainly has legs....Anyway, I think that we can sum this up as follows:
There are dog owners and responsible dog owners.
Quite clearly some are not the latter and therefore, IMO, should not be allowed to be the former.
Four Legs... Woof Woof.
How many legs do trolls have 😉
Bring back the dog licence system, I say.
It would make people think twice about getting & keeping a dog.
WHen introduced, I think it was set at about a week's wages for the average man. Say, about the same as an expensive bike?
Whist out on the Swinley ride yesterday, we encountered several dogs out with their owners. None were on leads, which is fine, because they were in a big forest, and should be allowed to run around, have fun and get exercise.
Each time, we all slowed down, and the owners made sure their dogs were under control, and even apologised!
No problems whatsoever. Mutual respect for everyone, and all of us were able to carry on enjoying the day.
Dogs respond to a good kicking.
Our dog tried to kill the cat. I gave him a beating (the cat joined in). He never did it again.
He got bitten by a collie so took to attacking collies on sight. I managed to time it just right and jumped on him and gave him a beating as he went for one. Never did it again.
So... in summary... to stop extreme behaviour dead in its tracks nothing beats a good beating.
I'm also available for baby-sitting advice 😉
[i].....I think it was set at about a week's wages for the average man. Say, about the same as an expensive bike?[/i]
uh huh.
Blimey, what long thread.
My dog is young and always approaches people, especially if they have dogs.
She goes into slinky stalk mode, head down, tail up, shoulders rolling. Looks pretty cool and tough and probably quite scarey.. She's tall, lean and totally black.
So I always call out to people (if she get's into faux-attack mode before I can grab her) "SHE'S FRIENDLY!" and then explain how the stupid thing just wants to say hello and be chased (by the dogs).
Am I doing the right thing? She hasn't been kicked yet.
Havent we discussed such a subject to death many many a time already? (sigh)
We're just playing at resurrecting all the dead threads.
Cyclists are not owners of the trails and should be prepared to slow down or stop when need be, whether its dogs/horses/walkers/children/deer/sheep/cows whatever.
Am I doing the right thing? She hasn't been kicked yet.
Sure. If someone kicked my dog for just having a sniff at them or their dog I'd apply my disciplining techniques to them.
God its like Dec 2008 all over again!
Funny how the same people get embroiled up in the basically the same thread all over again.
Cyclists - see dog, take the appropriate action to be seen / heard and be prepared to react accordlingly to dog.
Dog walkers - see cyclist, try and control your dog or warn cyclist accordingly.
If people were actually a bit more aware and considerate, this sort of situation wouldn't arise. The fact that it does says more about people than dogs.
I'd like to add one point. I'm good friends with a dog behavioural specialist (of very high qualification and repute) and she tells me its the owners problem as the dog needs training properly. I tend to trust her over random dog owners and people with an opinion, as she does have a lot of experience in the field. While knowing how dogs react is helpful when dealing with badly trained ones, it's ultimately the dog owners problem to train it. She also points out that 99% of dogs are perfectly trainable to the degree we are discussing (if the owner knows what they are doing or bothers to train it correctly).
i ain't readin 4 pages of poo, but heres my advice:
as dog jumps up, grab its front legs and splay them outwardly, thus splitting its ribcage
you may get a little nip in the process, but the dog should die soon after
SORTED
shakes head and wonders off..................
No, qwerty, thats a popular myth - if you look [url= http://vanat.cvm.umn.edu/carnLabs/Lab01/Lab01.html#images ]here[/url], you'll see you'd actually just dislocate the shoulders
Cyclists - see dog, take the appropriate action to be seen / heard and be prepared to react accordlingly to dog.
Dog walkers - see cyclist, try and control your dog or warn cyclist accordingly.
So the cyclist should be prepared to react to an attacking dog, yet the dog owner only has to TRY to control the dog, or not even bother and just call out a warning? It seems you only think one of the two sets of people need to be more aware and considerate, bigyinn (IMHO the wrong set).
Cyclists are not owners of the trails and should be prepared to slow down or stop when need be, whether its dogs/horses/walkers/children/deer/sheep/cows whatever.
Sure - but they should only have to slow down or stop to avoid running over the dog, not in order to prevent the dog attacking them.
I believe ALL dog owners should have to have a licence to handle dogs. To achieve this they must attend classes on how to train their dog, and how to be responsible with it.
I had a dog as a kid, and generally like dogs, however due to a couple of unfortunate incidents, dog (owners) have serioesly affected me ability to participate in my favourite pasttime (mountain biking) with my daughters.
We live on the edge of a national park, loads of scope for mountain biking, and access points are generally through car parks used by a variety of people but frequently dog walkers. When my girls were small, we would walk and cycle in the forest just a half a mile from our door - sounds idyllic yes? - it was.
But on a number of occasions careless dog owners let their dogs come running and barking upto my girls (then 3 or 4 years old) - they have been jumped on, knocked over and knockd off bikes. Now both are petrified of dogs (the older one, at 13, is getting better except for large dogs) but the younger one, now 10, is still terrified, and even takes time to get settled when we visit my brother and his dog whom she has known all her life.
As a consequence, we have to be very careful about what times we go walking (sunday mornings are out), and cycling together as a family almost never happens now, which to be truthful breaks my heart.
We try to introduce them to as many dogs we know as possible, and encourage them to play with friends dogs, but the damage is done. And still people ruin our day by not calling back their dogs when we ask them to, ending with tears, terrified kids and stressed parents.
[i]DezB - Member
..............
My dog is young and always approaches people, especially if they have dogs.
She goes into slinky stalk mode, head down, tail up, shoulders rolling. Looks pretty cool and tough and probably quite scarey.. She's tall, lean and totally black.
So I always call out to people (if she get's into faux-attack mode before I can grab her) "SHE'S FRIENDLY!" and then explain how the stupid thing just wants to say hello and be chased (by the dogs).
Am I doing the right thing? She hasn't been kicked yet. [/i]
No you are not doing the right thing. The right thing to do is CONTROL YOUR DOG as you have a legal responsibility to do. I do not want your dog coming up to me in any way. I don't care if it is freindly I want to go about my business without being bothered by your dog.
For sure if it ain't running up to you and barking then it is not as alarming and there will be little need to kick the dog - but I have the right not to be bothered in anyway by your dog and you have a duty to ensure this.
Can we try replacing the word dog with kids and then see if we still get the same reaction from people threatening to kick children and being bothered by them coming up to them. I don't like other peoples kids but it doesn't mean that if one runs up to me shouting and screaming or threatens me that i am going to kick them in the head for it even if the parents have no control over them. I just accept it and move on and i would suggest that certain people do the same with dogs.
I can understand it if a dog/child is going to attack you should be able to defend yourself but its normally the quiet ones that you have to watch out for, dogs like children can be unpredictable but you wouldn't have a child on a lead when out in public (although some should be on a lead and mussled, IMO of course).
If someone has been attacked in the past by a dog then i fell sorry for them and wouldn't wish that on anyone but it doesn't give them the right to take a swing at any dog that they come across who, in their opinion, is not under control.
Oh and TJ you can quote the law all you like but we all know that the law is an ass.
Interesting suggestion, bigsi. Picking a post from the start of this thread, here's what you get:
I was walking home down my road with a 6 year old boy. A big kid comes tearing at us and starts going for my son.My choices were, let the kid rip his thoat out or kick him and get my son away from him.
What do you reckon?
bigsi, the problem is that kids of an age to run up and attack other children, can generally understand other people. most dogs i've met tend not to understand get off me before i kick you.
It would have to be quite an extreme situation for me to resort to kicking a dog or child in the head. i would be more likely to kick the owner/parent in the head for not looking after their dog/child properly.
BTW I own a well trained, well behaved dog, and I know that some dogs are not very well behaved and their owners are tossers that think it's alright for their dog to attack mine with no provocation, and unfortunately it seems the percentage of shite dog owners is on the increase.
Arn't dogs little human beings ?
I think dogs should be allowed to VOTE as well:-)
"Dog Tags" lol
I give up, clearly dog owners and cyclists CANNOT live in perfect harmony. Perhaps Tony Blair could look into this, its probably easier than trying to sort out the "problems" in Gaza.
bigyinn - I think that they can as long as BOTH sides are sensible and considerate to each other. It's when one side can't or won't see the other sides point of view or is inconsidirate to other trail users (dog walkers, horse riders, walkers, runners etc) that conflict starts.
I've always ridden with consideration for others and as a result have never had anyone have a go at me, even when I've been on a cheeky trail or when out riding with my dog 😀
Can't be bothered to read 5 pages, suffice to say, I'll feed the troll 😀
Dog's aren't people, and if one comes near me and doesn't f*** off when I yell 'AWAY' at it, then I will (and have several times) try and kick it in the head as hard as I can. I'm yet to find a dog that doesn't back off even if you don't connect. Hopefully I'll have administrated the training that the owner evidently hasn't bothered to.
I really don't like dogs, the sh*t they (/their owners - whatever) leave everywhere, so if one gives me an excuse I'll happily boot it in the face.
Cat's on the other hand are ace. If all dogs had been put down in 1939 and replaced with cats, WW2 wouldn't have happened. Fact.
Dorset Knob does speak some sense but I think Theodore Roosevelt spoke more sense when he used the West African proverb "speak softly and carry a big stick"
but we all know that the law is an ass.
Can I come round and nick all your stuff, then?
Got to say, I can't condone any cruelty to animals. Some people on here are talking about going way beyond mere self defence, which I find rather disturbing, tbh. If I saw anyone going OTT on any animal, I would do my best to stop them, or report them.
Rudeboy - You can try it but I'll set my dogs on you 😉
TJ - You're response to my post is right. We [i]will[/i] train her not to approach everyone. At the moment she hasn't learnt that (we've had her just over a month).
cheers,
Dez
Up to which point she is presumably kept on a lead (I was bitten by a puppy who hadn't yet learnt better)?
give over tj, i think i have a right to surf the internet without reading your tepid drivel, and i dont care if you are friendly.
soobalias
your post is utterly pathetic
if you don't want to read a post, just don't, just stop reading, it's easy you fwit
but if I don't want to interact with an aggressive dog, I can't just decide not to interact with it, it won't go away
I'm just going to stop dealing with your pathetic ideas right now
and if they keep approaching me I'm going to kick them in the head
[i]I believe ALL dog owners should have to have a licence to handle dogs. To achieve this they must attend classes on how to train their dog, and how to be responsible with it.[/i]
I once attended puppy training classes and gave up. Never trained our dog. When I swear 'come here now you little chunt' - he knows he has to. I must admit though (sick of pretending to be a stw-goodie) you can spot the types who dont like dogs a mile away- I dont recall him until after hes jumped up. That includes members of certain religions and sulky-looking blokes.
He never chases bikes but loves people (too much). This isn't a troll- it is ****ing funny to watch though.
Anyone who owns a dog and hasn't made the effort to train it properly is a wnaker of the highest order. If your dog isn't under your full control off the leash, then it must stay on the leash. If your dog can't be controlled on the leash, you should be ashamed of yourself and either make the effort or stop owning a dog.
If you defend yourself against a dog that is coming for you, fair enough - but then do something about it PROPERLY - through the system - use it.
If you tell me that you hate dogs and you'd happily kick any dog, I'll batter the snot out of you if I catch you doing that.
If you are TJ, you should put more effort into getting more work or being constructive with your time - not baiting people with your verbatim quotes of legal pish. You are really sounding like the loony neighbour we all know.
Hora - numpty - but we knew that already. You may think its funny but many of us don't. Your dog could be put down and you fined because you can't control it. that will be really funny won't it.