I bought a s/h Cnoc 16 that I'm tidying up for my Son's birthday and the plan was just to replaced brake cables and give it a clean. However, I noticed the front wheel was a bit rough so decided to have a look at the hub (first time I've done this sort of thing).
The hub came apart fine and I cleaned it and re-greased the ball bearings before re-assembling. But...I've no idea how to tighten the nuts against the cone without tightening the cones too much and stopping the wheel from turning. There doesn't seem to be anywhere to get a cone spanner on to. My thought was to tighten the cone by hand and then lock in with the nut but not sure how to secure the nut against the cone. Any ideas? See pic..
Also, is this stick out of the rod normal? Should it be equal? There is much more on one side than the other. I only removed the nut and cone on one side so I don't think the nut on the other side has moved. I didn't think to check when I started!
Just a wee bump as I'm no further after some more investigation last night.
The cone spanner flats are on the cone but that is covered by the cup when assembled. I can't see how this can be tightened against the locking nut. Is the cup damaged? Should the flats on the cone sit proud of it? If it was then I'm not sure the cone face would be anywhere near the corresponding face in the hub as there would be too much stand-off.
Anyone able to pass on some knowledge to this noob?
Ahh sorry missed this before I went to work but can send you a pic of my cnoc hub this evening, not sure it looks like that IIRC
How did you take it apart? Where the spanner flats on the cone sitting proud of the metal seal before you took it apart? If so, to me that looks like there is some error in assembling, such that the cone is now protruding too far into the hub. Are the ball bearings all back in the correct place on both sides? The metal seal might also not be quite fully pressed home.
That is indeed an odd design. My thoughts:
1) The axle should be even at each end. This is easy to do - just (un)screw either side until there's the same amount proud at each side.
2) You can 'set' one end of the axle in isolation with normal cone spanners easily enough, so do that to start.
3) Just the final side to take care of including tensioning the bearings. Can you get anything (a pick, screwdriver) in the gap between the silver ring marked Quando and the nut? Usually I've been able to tighten nuts without cone spanners by just tightening the outer nut on the axle (securing the bolt on the other side of the axle). As you tighten, it winds in the cone a bit also, but eventually it bites. What this means in practice is that you have to detension the cone a bit, then nip up the outer bolt. It might take a few attempts to get the right amount of tension but it should work. Not ideal but you should be able to get it done.
Thanks for the insights. Yeah my guess was that the cups should sit further down the cone so that the spanner flats are protruding, perhaps it has been overtightened in the past. However, the cup doesn't really want to slide down over it past the flats. It's maybe been slightly deformed so some gentle persuasion might be required to get it back down.
When taking it apart, only one of the locknuts turned so the other is still attached to the axle on the other side with the cup and cone stuck in this odd position.
I might give islabikes a phone but don't really want to have to buy the entire hub just to replace the cups.
It looks like the inner bearing race (cup) may have come adrift from the hub and moved inwards. I've had this before (not Islabikes) and the symptoms were very similar.
Btw, the metal part you call the "cup" is actually the metal bearing seal. The cup is the name of the bearing seat/race that's inside the hub itself.
The bearing seals do deform quite easily, especially if someone has used a screwdriver to pry them out (guilty....). I would re-assemble, and see if you can gently persuade the seal to seat a little further into the hub.
If, on the other hand, the spanner flats on the cone never were visible - well, it would be a poor design, but you'd have to do something like what @Superficial described. Assemble it a bit loose, and just tighten up the outer nuts and hope it gets the bearings about tight enough. Repeat until happy.
It looks like the inner bearing race (cup) may have come adrift from the hub and moved inwards.
Being a front hub, I'd have thought the inner bearing race was a machined part of the hub itself.
Being a front hub, I’d have thought the inner bearing race was a machined part of the hub itself.
sometimes, especially for cheaper hubs, these are pushed in steel inserts into the alu hub shell. Normally butted up against a shoulder in the shell, but can deform and shift.
just to check, you used the same bearings that came out?
Fair enough. One way to check that you might be in the right ballpark is re-assemble everything without fully tightening the larger nuts, and then put the wheel back in the fork. If there's a lot of space on the axle, it might mean that something has gone wrong with the spacing of the inner races, bearings, any washers, etc. If there isn't, it might suggest that the overall assembly is ok, but that you have an issue with those metal bearing seals.
Saying that, forks are not always made to great tolerances, and the gap between the fork blades might not be very close to the specified distance anyway. Most (non-boost) forks are 100mm, not sure if the Cnoc is the same.
Basically what I'm describing is a way to check that the distance from one end of the axle / nut assembly to the other is what it should be (it's called the OLD, or over-locknut distance). If you have calipers, those would do a better job.
Just checked our menagerie of Islas and the spanner flats are visible on all of them. Either the dust shield isn't fully home or you've lost a ball somewhere and the cones are sitting to far inboard. Can you measure the hub width as you have it and compare to the frame?
Just checked our menagerie of Islas and the spanner flats are visible on all of them. Either the dust shield isn’t fully home ...
This.
The dustshield is not fully home on one of the cones, the one in the first and fourth pictures, it is quite obvious in the pictures. You can even see the flats inside the dust shield. A gentle press or tap using a suitably size socket should move it in a little.
As they say in the clickbait "look closer".
As for centering, as long as the end of the axle is below the face of the dropout when installed so that the qr doesn't bottom out it doesn't matter too much.
as @alexnharvey says
- push the metal dust shields fully in to the hub - they should not be proud as in your photos, then assemble the axle/cones/locknuts. With he shields fully home the flats on the cones will be accessible.
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Thanks for all the help so far. Just had a chance to get back on this tonight. See pics below.
When I put just the axle and cones in they sit flush with the edges of the hub on each side (when finger tight) so not a chance of getting a spanner on them.
Are the cups (inner bearing races) too far into the hub? I knocked them out and when I put them back in they return to the same position inside the hub.
I assume all the angled faces of the hub, cups and cones should touch? Maybe these questions make it sound like I should have got my LBS deal with this but you’ve got to learn somewhere and this place is a wealth of knowledge!
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No need to remove those inner races, but anyway back in and should be up against the shoulder in the hub. So that looks ok.
In this picture, you have put the ball bearings in right? How many balls did you take out when you took the hub apart btw?
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In this picture, you have put the ball bearings in right? How many balls did you take out when you took the hub apart btw?
There are no ball bearings in that picture - I assembled it with just the cones to see how far they went in when tightened. When it came apart the 10x ball bearings were under the metal bearing seal that goes on over the cone. There were no bearings between the inner race (cup) and cone.
Hiya @bruceandhisbonus
No point in checking that without the balls as that balls go between the cone and inner race otherwise the bearing simply does not work.
Take it the wheel was spinning nicely before you took it apart?
How many ball bearings do you have in total?
The wheel felt a bit rough which is why I took it apart. Looks like the bearings have been put in the wrong place then as on reflection, having them under the dust caps seems pretty pointless! There were 10x bearings on each side. Repositioning them to the correct position between cone and inner race would make sense as that would push the cones out a bit making the flats stick out to an accessible position.
I took it apart, re-greased and blindly put it back together the same way!
get the axle and one side fit cone and lock nut - keep loose.
Grease the cups.
Push the outer metal dust caps fully back into the hubs - ok to do so long as the cones pass through.
put 10 balls in each cup - use little screwdriver with grease on the end to place them.
Put the axle in and hold the side with the cone on.
carefully spin on the second cone and luck nut. tighten finger tight, at this point the wheel should spin nicely.
Now shuffle the cones/lock nuts so axle sticking out is the same on both sides keen cones snug against bearings. On one side lock cone against lock nut. The on other side adjust cone until very slight play then tighten lock nut - this should just take play out - check though might have to do a few times to get it right - wheel should spin easily but with no play it you wiggle the axle.
This page will help as well:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/hub-overhaul-and-adjustment
Cheers for the details, much appreciated. I'll try this tonight.
All sorted now, thanks for the clear and detailed guide. It was just a simple case of bearings being in the wrong place which is a bit embarrassing!