I think that a major barrier women have in accessing any sport is that we have less free time and more responsibilities than men.
as a house-husband that has worked part time unsociable hours for the past 10 years I disagree with that statement.
I’ve yet to see the printed edition of an MTB mag with a female on the front cover
Honestly I've left this thread well alone, but you'd have to have gone out of your way not to notice. I've got three from the pile of just 7-8 in the smallest room reading material collection (2 from Singletrack Anka Martin on the front of 126, and a couple (man and woman) on the cover of 128), and one from MBUK (Manon Carpenter on the front of Jan this year) I can think of times either Tahnee or Rachel has been on the cover of various mags as well.
This publication (and by that I mean the website as well as the printed mags), has a pretty even split in their editorial team who write, and they write about bikes, not just "bikes for women", or variations on that theme, although when they do, it's often thought provoking and insightful. Cycling Weekly appointed a female Tech Editor recently as well. I think it's incumbent on all of us to try to be as inclusive as we can. I think (perhaps controversially) bike centres like CYB and BPW and Swinley have done huge amounts to make mountain biking a "destination activity" and e-bikes make it easier to ride together if you're differing in endurance or strength (and that cuts both ways). Future looks bright, but we've got to want it to happen, and make it happen.
Not MTB specifically, but the comments on this Cycling UK post from yesterday about an LGBT club are genuinely depressing...
That was supposed to be a link to an FB post.
You can see it here if you scroll down...
How many replies from female users have there been, as a matter of interest?
I don’t have any of my old copies of Dirt but I would be AMAZED if none of them had a female MTBer on the cover. I remember their coverage of the female half of the WC DH being good, and likewise the early years of EWS.
I think it’s important that we strive to be more inclusive, maybe I’m more aware of it since having two daughters (and a son in between).
The “29ers are gay” comments on Pinkbike etc feel so weird, like they’re from a bygone era, but I live in Brighton so I’m definitely in a more forward thinking bubble. I think only one of my riding mates is gay (it’s not exactly something we talk about - thankfully the days of “phoar look at her” banter are past) and he’s a bloody good rider, really ballsy and fast, sometimes lets his bravery get ahead of his skills (which are better than mine). We did a race together some years back and he was starting behind me and overtook me on pretty much every stage!
It’s always nice when we have some female riders in our group, just feels a good thing even though the riding and conversation doesn’t change. That’s the thing really - we’re just humans who like MTBing. Within that there are lots of subsets of what types of riding we’re into but that doesn’t seem to be affected in any way by gender, sexuality, colour, etc.
How many replies from female users have there been, as a matter of interest?
I don't know, but let's hope they are better thought out than this one...
I think that a major barrier women have in accessing any sport is that we have less free time and more responsibilities than men.
How many replies from female users have there been, as a matter of interest?
They’re all being ‘mature’ and letting it happen, apparently. Because it can’t be changed, as it’s always been this way.🙄
“I don’t know, but let’s hope they are better thought out than this one…
“I think that a major barrier women have in accessing any sport is that we have less free time and more responsibilities than men.””
Have you ever looked at the group dynamics of many families, especially those with young children?
I'm maybe privileged in that I live in a bit of a local "bubble" in an area most folk moved to because of the availability of outdoor activities - including cycling. However, I no longer really notice the sex of the cyclists I see, it's simply not an issue. Local Strava segments, my Instagram/Flickr feeds etc. are full of female riders, just as they are with male riders. The most active MTB group in the area is a women's group and it's definitely the case that some women prefer that option if they're not riding alone or with a partner.
What I don't see, and therefore notice, are many non-White faces, but then there are very few in the area. We do have a high number of Eastern Europeans and Antipodeans, again here because of the outdoor activities.
Have you ever looked at the group dynamics of many families, especially those with young children?
Yes, I have studied humanities, including sociology and psychology. Poah is an exception, and even where men do pull their weight on practical terms, it tends to be the woman who bears the mental burden of organising the household for things like appointments and food shopping. On average men do 6hrs of domestic stuff a week and women do 16hrs, on top of working full time.
It's interesting that that's the part of my post that people here have had issues with, yet no problem with calling young women Virgins or Whores.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women-men-household-chores-domestic-house-gender-norms-a9021586.html%3famp
Which you choose I think, depends on your personality.
It's not necessarily a choice, you could do some of both. Depends on the nature of it, what you've experienced, etc.
Is horse riding still too misogynistic?
@kerley each family is different so rather unfair to generalise, imo.
I wasn't generalising at all, but whoever wrote this certainly was which was my point about ill thought out comments...
I think that a major barrier women have in accessing any sport is that we have less free time and more responsibilities than men.
What I don’t see, and therefore notice, are many non-White faces
We did a survey of more than 10,000 UK MTBers a few years ago, publicised through cycling websites and social media.
I believe there were a vanishingly small number of ethnic minority respondents - and I probably prompted a few of those by asking somebody off here to share with his riding group that I was aware of.
I don't recall the proportion of females, but it was reflective of the previously known ratio and probably in the teens somewhere.
Don't think we captured sexuality.
It’s interesting that that’s the part of my post that people here have had issues with, yet no problem with calling young women Virgins or Whores.
I remember that. It seemed to split female riders, though I got the impression most of the actual participants were happy with it. Both words do have other connotations (any novice could be called a trail virgin, we talk about brand whores) but there are definitely some more unpleasant tones when applied to women.
What is the female equivalent of ladism?
I believe there were a vanishingly small number of ethnic minority respondents
Yeah, I can imagine. As I said, there are loads of non-native riders here. I wonder if it's the same concentration in some other locations but simply not widespread.
It’s interesting that that’s the part of my post that people here have had issues with, yet no problem with calling young women Virgins or Whores
it was a woman only race series so why would I care what they called the different categories?
On average men do 6hrs of domestic stuff a week and women do 16hr
what about the woman that think men should still be doing certain jobs. My wife buys stuff for the house then expects me to sort it while she sits on her ass. Woman are just as sexist as men are if not more. Woman don't want equality they want equity.
It’s not necessarily a choice, you could do some of both. Depends on the nature of it, what you’ve experienced, etc.
Agreed. Its going to be a 'work in progress' for generations. There are too many slights of existence to be dealt with in one lifetime!
nickc
Subscriber
I’ve yet to see the printed edition of an MTB mag with a female on the front coverHonestly I’ve left this thread well alone, but you’d have to have gone out of your way not to notice. I’ve got three from the pile of just 7-8 in the smallest room reading material collection (2 from Singletrack Anka Martin on the front of 126, and a couple (man and woman) on the cover of 128), and one from MBUK (Manon Carpenter on the front of Jan this year) I can think of times either Tahnee or Rachel has been on the cover of various mags as well.
this...and not just the covers; Mrs R has certainly noticed that both the editorial & advert photos seem to have a good mix of men & women
Poah and Kerley, I've provided evidence in an earlier post which demonstrates that women do the lions share of domestic responsibilities, there will be exceptions but they are not the norm.
it was a woman only race series so why would I care what they called the different categories?
You'd be happy for your daughter or wife to be the fastest Whore?
Imagine if mens races were categorised by their sexual prowess? Who's riding in the Impotent race?
https://www.rootsandrain.com/race4479/2016-jul-23-air-maiden-maidenduro-innerleithen/results/
You’d be happy for your daughter or wife to be the fastest Whore?
I'd be happy for my wife or daughter to decide for themselves whether or not they chose to endorse the event by participating, which is not to say that that there was a surfeit of good alternatives. As I said, opinion at the time, amongst women riders I know, appearedtto be mostly OK with it.
Wasn't the air maiden event organised by women though? Apologies if i got this wrong.
Faerie, when I said this: "Have you ever looked at the group dynamics of many families, especially those with young children?" in response to Kerley, I was agreeing with you!
My wife is a so-called non-working mother who actually works far more hours than me, even though I run my own business and try to pull my weight with the kids and house.
"Yes, I have studied humanities, including sociology and psychology. Poah is an exception, and even where men do pull their weight on practical terms, it tends to be the woman who bears the mental burden of organising the household for things like appointments and food shopping. On average men do 6hrs of domestic stuff a week and women do 16hrs, on top of working full time."
There will be exceptions but in many families this is the case - I've seen it with friends during lock-down - the dad is working in the home office all day and then appears expecting dinner. The mum is doing everything else - and if you've tried to home school children whilst running the house you'll know that's harder work than driving a laptop!
I remember that. It seemed to split female riders, though I got the impression most of the actual participants were happy with it.
That does seem a bit self-selecting, though - if you really don't like the names you probably won't take part.
And apropos of nothing, I went out on my MTB with my 16 year old daughter just yesterday 🙂
That does seem a bit self-selecting, though – if you really don’t like the names you probably won’t take part.
Yeah, and as I said, it's not like there were loads of other events to choose from either.
My apologies Chiefgrooveguru, I miss read your post.
Blackflag: Yes it is, as I said earlier.
Scotroutes, I think women entered the event as it's the format that appeals, but there were a few reservations about the category names. The female equivalent ladism is ladette, Denise Van Outen looked like she was having fun and I totally embraced the culture in the early '90s behaving just as badly as the boys. Whilst I may aspire to be a whore in the bedroom I don't in a bike event 🤣
Poah and Kerley, I’ve provided evidence in an earlier post which demonstrates that women do the lions share of domestic responsibilities, there will be exceptions but they are not the norm.
Well done. The comment I picked up on was still a generalisation though. People make time for the things they want to do in life. I don't have any more spare time than my wife does (in fact I have far less) but I still cycle every Saturday and Sunday without fail because it is important to me. My wife makes time for the things that are important to her. She could spend more time riding a bike than I do but she chooses to do gardening. She actually detests cycling and thinks they are all ****ers but I digress.
It is not a competition about who has the most or least spare time it is about whether the spare time you do have is spent riding a bike or not.
I always took the owning of terms like whore in that event to be a strong feminist statement, taking back control of the term used to subjugate. But what women chose to call themselves is a matter for them and i'd be no more comfortable saying if this was right or wrong than i would be being white and commenting on the use of the N word.
I wasn’t generalising at all, but whoever wrote this certainly was which was my point about ill thought out comments…
@kerley am actually agreeing with you cos I found the original comment by another user to be pretty inflammatory and not conducive to a sensible discussion.
Woman don’t want equality they want equity.
The overriding issue here isn't what men want or what women want, it's one of generalisation. Assuming that you can categorise men, women, whites, blacks, Chinese, French, gay people etc just based on that characteristic.
Women don't all want the same thing any more than you want what I want.
I think one of the big obstacles is that mountain biking as a whole is not beginner friendly. As mentioned above, the 'bro culture', feeling out of place in a shop, having a mid ride mechanical you can't fix or having to push down a section of trail... add all this into a sport that is currently male dominated and it could easily feel like you're being excluded.
My ex girlfriend got into riding whilst we were together and her issue was finding people to ride with at her level and places to ride. She wanted it to be her own hobby, not just tagging along with me. After a few solo laps of Swinley she got bored and moved on to climbing.
I've certainly never seen any misogyny within my current riding group when we've had women join us, but the difference being they've always been competent riders, not beginners.
On a related note, I think women's DH has some great ambassadors at present and I can't wait to see a category with a number of potential race winners once we're back racing. It'll be interesting if we see this being converted into race entries.
You’d be happy for your daughter or wife to be the fastest Whore?
Imagine if mens races were categorised by their sexual prowess? Who’s riding in the Impotent race?
Wouldn't care - Their choice to enter and have an opinion on the categories.
which demonstrates that women do the lions share of domestic responsibilities
Ever think they choose to do it. We share responsibility in our house and we certainly don't count up the hours to make sure we spit it 50/50. Sorry but if you can't make time to do something you want to do then you are in a bad relationship.
and if you’ve tried to home school children whilst running the house you’ll know that’s harder work than driving a laptop
Your home schooling must be different to mine. It couldn't be easier.
I stand corrected, (kind of)
I've got all the 2019 issues of mbuk and all of the front covers feature a motley assortment of fairly ugly blokes (sorry!!!).
Before the lockdown, I'd try to get a quick swatch of mbr and stw as I meandered through the supermarket. Obviously my 'quest' has not been thorough enough.
People can tell me to 'cluck right off', but in the interests of gender equality, I'd like to say... bring out the chix😊
“Your home schooling must be different to mine. It couldn’t be easier.”
It depends on so many factors. We have a free spirit of a 7 year old who is away in imagination land with little desire for structured work, a very busy 4 year old who keeps asking me to do “pluses” with him and the world’s most impatient and intolerant 6 month old.
I imagine your children are different, most are.
5, 10 and a 15 year old.
She also join the local roller derby... ... She ended up finding it very clicky
Same here, my missus went through the same thing when she got pregnant. Sod 'em.
I’ve yet to see the printed edition of an MTB mag with a female on the front cover. Chicken. Egg. Chicken. Egg…
Have been for years, not as regularly as the males granted but then they are less represented.
Singletrack have as well but the link is broken. May 2015
How many replies from female users have there been, as a matter of interest?
Two by my count, I'm not including you because you haven't actually expressed an opinion for reasons only you know.
How do you feel about events such as Air Maiden?
Would you feel comfortable entering the Virgin or Whore’s categories?Is there another national sport that officially refers to women like that?
Whoa, that's one event, not an entire national sport. Let's keep this in perspective. I can see how both sides of opinion come to their conclusions but
what women chose to call themselves is a matter for them and i’d be no more comfortable saying if this was right or wrong than i would be being white and commenting on the use of the N word.
I'm not about to mansplain to a woman who organised a women only event why it's misogynistic. Yes, I can see why it is problematic but I can also see that's not at all the spirit in which it was intended (self-deprecation being a fine Scottish tradition). For that reason I would have no problem at all if my wife or daughter earned such a title. And even that that's MY problem; my approval doesn't, and shouldn't count for anything.
Poah - I would be interested in your other halfs take on this
If a female only riding race wanted to have categories of virgin to whores would I be offended by it, no. Asked my misses if she would and again she said no but did say she could see if others could be offended.
The roller derby that I talked about previously was very much pin up girl, short hot pants, tongue in cheek player names and girl power vibe about it. Your first game was always known as the cherry popper. They do have a very small men’s following but again they didn’t do any real encouragement to get me involved to the level that the women’s teams had. The men’s teams were more of an after thought. Again the kit itself isn’t cheap (skates could be couple of hundred quid, then pads and helmet) so to give it a try you would need to borrow gear which they didn’t have. My main point is that any event is hard to market and equally encourage everyone from every background without offending.
Poah – I would be interested in your other halfs take on this
Take on what specific part?
Interesting topic, one that could apply to many sports I suppose.
Part of the challenge for me is trying to understand what is meant when people say "mountain biking" as one homogenous sport or pastime. Jumping in the woods 50:01 style, racing DH, racing XC, bikepacking or going for a family ride around a trail centre would all look like mountain biking I suppose, but how I imagine the participants (for right or wrong) varies a bit for me, through my own prism and experiences. I guess that's the perception element, then!
For me, I'd never have been attracted to mountain bikes in the 1990s if it was all Geoff Apps and the Rough Stuff Fellowship. That isn't "mountain biking" to my perception of the sport, but it is obviously riding bikes off road, so clearly I'm skewed. As for so many, it was the rise of the "rad" element of DH in the 90s that attracted me, boozing, jumping through fires and unattractive behaviour and all.
So the point of my rambling is this - when people look at "mountain biking" and are put off, what do they see? I can't judge that, but it seems unfair to point a finger at one corner of the sport and shout "it's that lot with the spliff/stickers/beard.." 🙂
I know Manon has been on the front of MBUK twice, Tahnee once, Rachel Atherton at least once and Vero Sandler in the last 2 months 👍
How do you feel about events such as Air Maiden?
I wouldn’t enter or support an event with sexually-themed category titles. For me, it’s inappropriate, and I would find it disrespectful; however, others may not relate to my point of view and may look on it in a positive way. It’s all good - variety is the spice of life, as they say.
Over the years I’ve mostly ridden as the only female in a group of males. Mostly this has been a lot of fun. Lots of general banter, which I enjoy - only occasional male-oriented banter (if you get my drift, I’m trying to be polite) - and this would only occur in larger groups with people I’d never met before. On those occasions I didn’t feel offended, but I did feel excluded - but not that big a deal - I’m fairly adept at closing my ears and minding my own business - it wouldn’t put me off, but I wouldn’t choose to ride with those folk again.
What did put me off riding with a group of males was the feeling of holding everyone back. I’ve almost always been the slowest in the group, even while being a competent rider at my own pace. It’s not much fun to feel like a pain in everyone’s backside. But ... I’ve ridden with some really fast guys and had a great time, and never once felt like I was holding them back - I was holding them back, but they had lovely manners and included me as part of the group regardless of my speed.
In my own experience, riding with other women is more relaxed - the pace is more happily suited to the slowest of the group, and the atmosphere is one of encouragement. I haven’t been able to ride for the last few years and am currently planning my grand return to mtb. I'll likely ride solo most of the time, perhaps sometimes with female friends. I would feel the need to get my fitness, technical skills and confidence back to a high level before considering riding with a group of men ... but would be keen to do that ... variety is the spice of life, as they say ... wait, did I say that before? ;o)
I suspect mtb is much the same as any other area of life - some people are respectful and mannerly towards others regardless of their gender and the specific situation - others, not so much.
