I love watching the womens uci dh.some great talent and role models for younger riders.might be everyone's cup of tea though.
As for answering the question asked ....no I don,t .
Yes there are items out there you could purchase that are inappropriate for the modern era but have you actually seen anyone with a half naked body advertising there lower leg of there forks .....no me neither .....
I'm using my own experience here and I think making more females aware of not only how fantastic Mountain biking is and how accessible it actually is for everyone is key and holding women only events is actually counter productive and having attended a female only event last summer left me feeling rather sick to the stomach,nothing to do with the actual day which was fantastic but the actual thought that some women there felt that they could only feel really comfortable and confident riding with women only and whilst at least in my head I'm happy if that's what gets them into the sport and out on a bike it also makes me feel sad they feel that way and that the groups are mostly promoted as female groups rather than an all inclusive groups who just happen to be female .
I'm not good at explaining myself in text but I hope I've made a valid point.
2 years ago I was still at school struggling with anxiety and not fitting in ,my dad made a massive effort to get me out on mountain bikes as he has always said it (saved him) .we went to Leeds bike park and I've never looked back . mountain bikes saved me too.
As a young female I find general tv adverts more offensive than anything I've experienced in the sport at dalby llandegla bpw or riding our local calderdale trails or from anything I've ever seen marketed ,infact I think the industry is actually leading the line in how to be inclusive.
Written by Annabelle aged 17
Ironically written on my dad's account.......looks like I'll have to open my own account and bridge that percentage gap even more .
I don't think there's a lot of misogyny, just a few Richard Heads who are challenged by competent women and loud with their insecurities.
Their noise gives a false impression of their numbers, empty barrels and all that.
My thinking is that there’s still a massive reluctance amongst a lot of girls to get mucky and sweaty doing risky sports.
This . Plus there’s the physical and strength side of being able to take a beating on crashes, or simply to be able to land a big jump. I was watching mountain biking with the missus on a dvd a while ago and she commented how strong you must be to do ‘that’ (coming from her, before women get offended).
It’s funny how we say girls don’t like getting sweaty/muddy/taking risks. Then you look at horse riding… surely something like eventing is pretty risky but the demographics there seem the inverse of mountain biking. I know it’s maybe not as accessible/mainstream as cycling but still I find it an interesting observation.
Hmm that’s an interesting one that, as I used to do cross country horse riding events but had never just made that connection myself, but good observation. I guess it goes back to the thing that you don’t have to push your own body or sweat as much when horse riding (apart from at the top elite level) compared to mountain biking.
The one place where I've seen probably closing in on 50:50 gender balance (not quite there, but I was really surprised by how many women there were) was Morzine.
There are a number of women only clubs, groups and events that my better half occasionally goes to, I wonder if there's a large portion of women that will only go out in those groups.
(not meaning this in any bad way, how many of us only go out with the same small group of people?)
I shouldn’t ask for a link to the stickers then?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324165120850
I'm struggling to be upset by them tbh.
I think people pay too much attention to publications. are there ****s? yes but you find ****s in all walks of life. pictures of hot woman/men or using hot men/woman to advertise is not sexist/misogynistic/misandry. For most people, they don't care about your skin colour, wither your sexual organs are in- or external or your skill level.
You also get the snowflake woke people to that take offence at everything and anything even when it doesn't actually affect them. I find them worse than the other ****s.
I’m more interested in how someone called big bud can have a pop at spliff smokers or is it just me seeing the irony in that?
I love watching the womens uci dh.some great talent and role models for younger riders.might be everyone’s cup of tea though.
It's very noticeable in South Wales how much of an effect Manon Carpenter being successful had on getting the girls and ladies out on bikes. She didn't cause it completely but when her success was picked up by the local media (BBC Wales, Wales Online etc) female participation started to grow exponentially for a while, then BPW opened and a few other initiatives kicked in and now it's pretty much a normal mix of male/female most weekends at the trail centres. Even during the lockdown I've noticed an awful lot of women out on bikes, there seems to be a male bias on the runners if anything. I for one love having loads of different people out on bikes all with a different perspective on what it is and what it means to them.
I know having Rachel Atherton and Tahnee Seagrave living up in North Wales has had a similar effect too. I think we're well past the point of initiatives being needed to be forced to encourage female riders to get out there, we now need to focus on making any lingering prejudices in current riders socially unacceptable when out there. That is going to be a hard battle but one we can win if we all set an example.
when it doesn’t actually affect them
I consider it vital that people speak out “when it doesn’t effect them”… looking out for other people is a trait I like in others, personally.
How does google know the configuration of my genitals?
Google knows a hell of a lot more about you than you know.
(It's not 100% accurate, but it ties up your nominated gender on email or login accounts, Facebook, your shopping and viewing habits online, your saved form data etc etc)
Always scared of commenting in these sorts of threads as a white middle aged man. I do ride with women a lot and don't hear much misogyny personally, but maybe I just miss it. I do use women pro's as examples to my kids (both boys), to counter the "boys are best" silliness they pick up at school. I would hope in comparison to other sports it's better. But society as a whole has a way to go yet and mtb doesn't exist in a bubble.
matt_outandabout
Google knows a hell of a lot more about you than you know.
But sometimes its conclusions are amusing.
I get quite a few adverts for gravel paths. Maybe they have drawn conclusions from my posts on bike forums... 🙂
Even this place, which is a hotbed of liberal political correctness
Yeah that old ruse.
Once in any position of power zero tolerance crackdowns on anything fun or they don't like apart from road bikes.
I consider it vital that people speak out “when it doesn’t effect them”… looking out for other people is a trait I like in others, personally.
I don't disagree with that but that isn't what I was talking about.
Slightly-related (now the accusation is out there)
Choosing a random definition for context:
noun [ U ] UK (US virtue signaling)
UK /ˈvɜː.tʃuː ˌsɪɡ.nəl.ɪŋ/ US /ˈvɝː.tʃuː ˌsɪɡ.nəl.ɪŋ/An attempt to show other people that you are a good person, for example by expressing opinions that will be acceptable to them, especially on social media:
Virtue signalling is the popular modern habit of indicating that one has virtue merely by expressing disgust or favour for certain political ideas or cultural happenings.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/virtue-signalling
It seems like a loaded-definition/assumption?
Thought-experiment:
Is it possible to discuss politics on fora without being accused or assumed of ‘virtue-signaling’
Esp:
an attempt to show other people that you are a good person, for example by expressing opinions that will be acceptable to them
So if I was (for instance) apopleptic regarding the UK Gov’s management of care-homes during this pandemic, and voiced my concerns/questions by opening a thread...
...would I be ‘trying to show people that I am a good person’ by caring about the safety of elderly folk in care homes? Or would I be angry and attempting to understand/engage debate/raise an issue?
Of course, I’m convinced that I know my own motive/s but how are others able to correctly discern exactly what motive/s?
The ‘virtue-signaling’ accusation can seem like a catch-all shutdown?
Is best to not voice own opinions and stick to the subject instead? (is my best guess)
We have just over 20% ladies as our visitors. Some with partners but lots with friends or solo. It’s not the 50% I’d like obviously but it’s not bad. There are other groups that are far far less represented: non-whites, male homosexuals as two notable groups.
I’d say that 76% of us really aren’t in the best position to say yes or no
Post of the thread. But, we all have our opinions.
Women downhillers have to have a certain image and qualification (brother/bf) to gain the right to ride, unless you have awesome skills, it is extremely cliquey.
I can't comment on the cliquey side of it but is it maybe more that said women were exposed to MTB at a younger age and then simply moved into it the same way their family did? It's not an earned right to ride, far from it, more happy coincidence than anything else. IMO.
You say there have been some great female ambassadors of the sport and then reference miss G ,a drug dealing cannabis carrying mule who then grassed up half of the USA drug dealers to reduce her own sentence
I'd suggest considering the facts before condemning her, I'd call her story a tragic indictment of the society she lives in more than anything else.
I do agree with you though, it's sad that some people feel they have to ride in a heterogeneous group to feel safe. That said there is a different dynamic in female majority groups, they tend to be far cruder in my experience, probably the types who would buy those stickers actually... (Or maybe that's just the sort of women I hang about with)
A bunch of middle aged gravel bike riders mansplain on women's MTB issues
The fact that Big-Bud's daughter used his account to write a thoughtful post and it's been ignored says it all
Pinkbike supports female cycling way more than here
squirrelking
..I can’t comment on the cliquey side of it but is it maybe more that said women were exposed to MTB at a younger age and then simply moved into it the same way their family did? It’s not an earned right to ride, far from it, more happy coincidence than anything else. IMO....
Or it may be as simple as them having a parent or parents who were cyclists. BMX seems fairly open to girls and it's the gateway drug to mtb - and hopefully remaining singlespeed 🙂
Missy G's troubles may have been related to hitting her head a lot, according to some who knew her. Bit of a tangent, but why should she have to be a role model anyway?
A bunch of middle aged gravel bike riders mansplain on women’s MTB issues
Get over yourself pal.
Id say MTB has come along pretty well with the rest of society
loads more to do , but it seems like more women than ever are out on the trails, theres still a 'laddy' attitude , but thinking bacl to the 90s, FHM, Loaded etc, Im not proud of my attitude toward women when I was a student/ 20something, the students I work with now seem to be better and more aware
i posted this in the 'what prizes have you won' thread, this was from MBUK 2003, dont think this would be a thing today
Who remembers that bike shop brochure with Michelle Marsh straddling dh bikes in a bikini and high heels. I cant remember the bike shop name, just the photos.😀
Wades Cycles
Pinkbike supports female cycling way more than here
They have a lot of articles sure, but (from the comments, not just from kids) it’s users aren’t very enlightened. Not sure there’s anything like as many women on the forum as here, and the machismo on there is breath taking. MTBR is similar, though maybe not quite as bad, so perhaps it’s more of a North American issue?
Seems pretty inclusive to me. Plenty of female riders and coaches at Whistler last year - many could smash and be role models for most of the men pootling down flat Swinley on Enduro sleds 😂😂...
A bunch of middle aged gravel bike riders
Speak for yourself.
mansplain on women’s MTB issues
That word doesn't mean what you think it means.
Yes I'm a guy but it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion or take part in the discussion. Equally I would hold far more weight to the opinion of someone directly affected - in this case, any female participant.
The fact that Big-Bud’s daughter used his account to write a thoughtful post and it’s been ignored says it all
Except where I replied to her and discussed a point she made. But crack on...
Or it may be as simple as them having a parent or parents who were cyclists.
That was what I was getting at in a general sense. A number of top women appear to have been introduced through family whilst the men seem to have just gravitated in. But again, some through family. (Oddly enough does anyone remember Ed Moseley?)
The reason for this difference is probably the expectation of gender roles discussed before. Which is shite but progress is happening, people are becoming more aware that these perceptions are cemented from a very early age and is something we have strived to avoid with our daughter.
It's quite good to see the kickback and support for the female BMXers when they post their prize cheques at the likes of FAS and the ridiculous gulf is exposed.
This . Plus there’s the physical and strength side of being able to take a beating on crashes, or simply to be able to land a big jump.
On this point there is one of the women members on here Jojo who is in the top few % of riders I know. At the strathpuffer she lapped me doing her 3rd lap while I was starting my second ( Ok not a huge challenge if you know me) and I bet she would kick the ass of 90% of the men on here or more
Strength is not a key thing either of I would be able to woop those skinny ass kids northwind and trailrat - skinny little weeds that leave big butch me for dead over any terrain
Refreshing to read Annabelle’s take on things (Big Bud’s daughter). I guess for me rather than looking straight towards the balance of gender in our sport (which I agree has improved massively) my pondering is more about how accessible the sport is in terms of allowing women to feel like welcomed and legitimate, as equal partakers in our sport rather than a welcomed but ultimately not embraced-as-equals part of our sport.
I’m pleased to see how much the sport has progressed (and it has, since the days of MBUK featuring a readers wives section, and the aforementioned adverts with bikini-clad women and some cliches strapline). Maybe I was just really disappointed to see (now that my partner is starting to really enjoy the sport) something that would obviously make her feel like she was dabbling in something which still objectified women as if we were all still teenage boys collecting s****ing as we thumbed through a copy of Fiesta that one of our mates had smuggled into school.
I may not be qualified to make too many observations about the British mtb scene, but in Denmark where I live, I have never seen so many female riders. In my club we are about 70% males vs females. The number of females seem to be increasing, both on road bikes and singletrack. In fact, this weekend I have been asked to give a tour af the local singletracks to 3 females, all in their thirties, who have decided that they want to give off road biking a go.
Of course it helps that 90% of all Danes own a bicycle, and many use bikes as primary transport.
Why is it anyones fault ?
Is it just not possible that women on the whole don't enjoy MTBing as much as men ? Be it a genetic thing, or a society thing, physical thing or mental thing... Maybe they just don't enjoy it as much as blokes do. That doesn't mean anyone is to blame does it ?
Captainclunkz comment is truly depressing and i wish that society will sort itself out, but i'm not holding my breath. The whole gay = soft is everywhere. How many times have you heard someone called gay if they get off and walk a section? As if your attraction to others is somehow related to your ability to commit to gnarr.
Plus there’s the physical and strength side of being able to take a beating on crashes, or simply to be able to land a big jump.
That's only one part of MTBing. I'm out 6-10 hours a week currently and I'm not doing any big jumps or having big crashes.
Yes, it is still misogynistic - largely because society is and it is prejudiced in other ways too. MTB is a largely white and male sport.
The fact that the OP gets told he is virtue signalling in a follow up post is evidence of this. I cant believe that we have to spell this shit out yet again. Being concerned about other people who may feel excluded is being a decent human - not a ‘virtue signaller’ or a ‘white knight’.
If you don’t want to be part of something evolving and encouraging wider-participation, just be open about it. Instead of insisting others with a motive for inclusion are virtue signalling, just be honest and say you don’t want women riding or can’t be bothered to support it.
So I did want to respond to Annabelle yesterday but was on the way out for a ride of all things. Have shown and discussed this thread with my other half and she pretty much agreed with you that she outdone be more offended by most modern advertising directed at women that anything else.
Her experience with getting into riding is quite a good story. Angela has always been a bit of a tomboy with doing activities that you wouldn’t expect a woman to want to do including going off-road jeeping, learning to play the drums and even getting a motor bike license(though will balance it out with buying expensive handbags and baking). All these hobbies are men heavy but has never felt discriminated or put down for wanting to do said activities.
She also join the local roller derby (it’s like rugby on roller skates) team as she did want to make more girlfriends. She would get involved with going to games around the country for team support or doing fundraising events. She ended up finding it very clicky (depending if you was in the first team, second team or freshmeat). I went to one or two games or social events and hated it (none of them actually wanted to talk to me or conversation was very limited). A year into Angela’s training she broke her ankle at one of the training days, for the first week she had only half the team message her to see how she was doing, the second week two of the girls and none the week after. I did drag her out to one of the social event so she could catch up with the other girls but again they didn’t seem interested in how she was doing. In the end she decided that even when out of plaster she wasn’t going back to that sport or group. Throughout this all of my riding buddies have asked me (and her when she would she them) how was her ankle and how she was doing.
I have gotten her out a few time with other women or women swinley group rides but she does prefer to go out with just me (afraid of holding people up or not being able to ride tech that others can). I have started to take her out with a couple of other new riders in very small groups and it’s works the best (same as when I first started). She is lucky that I’m (like to think at least) a fairy good rider and have been coaching her, the lockdown has helped to get her out regularly and I can she her improving. I don’t see men stopping women from getting into riding or any other sport, I would say at times it can be other women on other women that stop them getting into a sport but more than likely women on themselves.
I'm too busy riding with my friends to be wringing my hands about whether MTB should be equally represented in both genders.
But also, I dont really care.
If someone wants to ride, they'll ride. Gender or sexuality has got nothing to do with it.
MTB is such that you can dictate the terms of your own engagement with the 'culture'. You can go all out and immerse yourself in the club and race scene, or start your own. You can ride with just the people you like, your spouse or solo.
You just need the maturity to think for yourself and ignore the shit you dont like. The world has ever been thus, for everything, and it wont substantively change any time soon.
I've left a few MTB facebook groups of late because they seem to be full of mostly young lads (the future of what we do), making bigoted comments about peoples choice of bike, wheel size, and genitals.
Frankly, I don't have time for that BS.
It probably is, but as a bloke, I'm not really qualified to say so, what I do know, is that some of the people involved in MTB are horrible, intolerant arse's, who think it's fine to be misogynistic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or whatever.
Personally, I think it's unacceptable to be any of that. I just enjoy riding my bikes.
can’t be bothered to support it.
If someone wants to ride, they’ll ride. Gender or sexuality has got nothing to do with it.
That sort of attitude won't help widen participation, to increase diversity you need to take positive action.
Problem is though, the majority of people just don't care. About most issues with the "sport" as it's so broad really. I don't ride downhill, enduro or competitively so couldn't care less about funding for racing. I'm never going to Scotland so don't pay any attention to their access and how it's better. Less people in the sport? Less people in trail centre car parks. No trail centres, I'll ride cheeky trails.
Doesn't mean I want people to be put off, no way should gender, sexuality or ethnicity stop you from taking part. But equally, I'm not going to go out and do anything about it either. Which should make me feel bad, but doesn't.
Fortunately, the undesirables do tend to collectivise in their own echo chambers so they're pretty easy to identify and avoid.
mostly young lads (the future of what we do), making bigoted comments about peoples choice of bike, wheel size, and genitals.
Its still not acceptable but - 'A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life'.
- Muhammad Ali.
Some of those guys are still learning to be decent human beings. Some will never make it.
Annabelle, it's good to hear that younger women riders don't face similar prejudice as older women, maybe it's a generational problem.
How do you feel about events such as Air Maiden?
Would you feel comfortable entering the Virgin or Whore's categories?
I know that it was established by women, but it appears sycophantic in asserting that women are just a ride and a conquest. Is there another national sport that officially refers to women like that?
I used to work as a groom, I'm well used to a tumble, getting dirty, and having to put the physical effort in. Casual sexism and misogyny aside, I think that a major barrier women have in accessing any sport is that we have less free time and more responsibilities than men.
If someone wants to ride, they’ll ride. Gender or sexuality has got nothing to do with it.
Women still need to buy bikes though. Would you be enthused to go buy one if the local shop dismissed you/only spoke to your (different gender) SO about your purchase?
Then once you got out on the trail, people of the opposite gender kept offering patronising advice, despite not asking for it? Or muttering snide comments under their breath as the go past?
If someone wants to ride, they’ll ride.
Agreed.
Gender or sexuality has got nothing to do with it.
Has something to do with it for some people, I think. Marketing is often what makes people notice so many things that don't come directly from their friends. If bike companies only ever show 'Bro culture' and bike shops are staffed by blokes who think MTB is a bloke's sport/thing it will influence who rides in the longer term. 'People like us do things like this'.
I can think of 2 non-MTB events that saw an obvious change in the gender balance when they encouraged more women to enter. No major marketing/message effort needed, just a subtle change in how things were done and perhaps most of it came from just making it clear the events welcomed all riders. For some it's not an issue but for other women knowing they wouldn't be the 5% minority there made the difference.
I've yet to see the printed edition of an MTB mag with a female on the front cover. Chicken. Egg. Chicken. Egg...
Would you be enthused to go buy one if the local shop dismissed you/only spoke to your (different gender) SO about your purchase?
Then once you got out on the trail, people of the opposite gender kept offering patronising advice, despite not asking for it? Or muttering snide comments under their breath as the go past?
No, I wouldn't, and its not acceptable, but its not restricted to gender/sexuality. Noobs, kids, teenagers and riders of any persuasion that are perceived to be of lesser skill or not a 'bro' can be/are subjected to this stuff too.
You can use your valuable time and energy fighting injustice, or you can get on with your life and develop some resilience, and cut out those types of people, hence my comments in my last paragraph about maturity.
Which you choose I think, depends on your personality.
Then once you got out on the trail, people of the opposite gender kept offering patronising advice, despite not asking for it? Or muttering snide comments under their breath as the go past?
That's LONG been a "thing" though, both men and women. I thought it was a hangover from the old days of the traditional roadie club where old blokes would mutter under their breath about these young whippersnapers, no respect, this new fangled gear. I remember road racing in the mid 90's with guys who would sneer at STIs (still a relatively new thing then) insisting that their downtube shifters were still perfectly good. And you get exactly the same now with e-bikes. In between it, there's been sneering and derogatory comments about more gears, carbon fibre and disc brakes plus the usual dyed-in-the-wool "knowledge" (old wives tales...) about how you should always do this that or the other.
In some respects, that publication of the Velominati Rules, originally intended to be tongue in cheek soon came full circle and went so far up its own arse that it's now used to sneer and belittle riders in a whole new way.
