Rona, riding with others who make you feel like you are holding them back is never pleasant. It used to happen to me all the time, but then the "fit group" all became roadies. There is a certain competitive alpha type thing that's (understandably) quite prevalent in MTB. I ride with mates, we natter, we wait, we have fun. I'd suggest just finding a group that likes the aspects of MTB you like rather than be dictated too much by gender.
Oh and the "fit group" also contained girls who left me behind as well 🙂
I’ve almost always been the slowest in the group
This is me on pretty much every group ride I go on up and down the trails lol
Blackflag - thanks, great advice. Yup, definitely prefer the chatting, fun type of ride. I have, on occasion, left a male rider behind ... but it was generally because they were injured, or their bike was broken!
poah - I feel your pain. My personal favourite is finally arriving at the top of the climb, beetroot and peching, only for everyone else to decide that my appearance signals the end of rest time. My partner would ride back down the hill to see what was keeping me, ride alongside for a while until he got bored, and then accelerate off in a cloud of dust. Drove me bonkers, but still makes me laugh!
poah – I feel your pain. My personal favourite is finally arriving at the top of the climb, beetroot and peching, only for everyone else to decide that my appearance signals the end of rest time
yes although the last time I rode with people Mctrail rider and cathro did wait before going on and shouted "encouraging words" when I was near the top of the mountain.
ha ha - I can imagine!
People who do that are dicks Rona. Its just bad form.
Thanks tj - appreciated.
I suspect mtb is much the same as any other area of life – some people are respectful and mannerly towards others regardless of their gender and the specific situation – others, not so much.
Indeed. I've been on all-male rides with a wide range of abilities and I've seen the slowest rider left behind and almost forgotten about as the faster riders ride up and chat away. And yes, I did stay back and ride with him.
“My personal favourite is finally arriving at the top of the climb, beetroot and peching, only for everyone else to decide that my appearance signals the end of rest time.“
This is the worst! In my local posse we have a laidback Thursday group which mostly rides the singletrack, and then a fast Tuesday group which does more XC miles.
To keep the pace up the Tuesday group does the “last rider basically never gets a rest thing”, so if you’re not having an easy time on Thursday evening you don’t try Tuesdays! But that works because we have a slower ride with much less of that competitive silliness (and it’s a few years since I did a Tuesday, not sure if I could keep up now...)
Wow, who'd have thought that the "sexist **** of the thread" award would go to a woman! Or is faery actually a 13 year old boy and helping prove the thread's assertion? Never read such tripe in my life. If you think women do more in the home that says way more about you than society, please grow up and get out more.
I would say it’s a lot better than it was and it’s pretty much always been better than road riding. I dabbled in that for a while and it was proper weird - finding races with a women’s category was an issue just for a start.
I’m lucky that I’m pretty fit so I’m usually mid pack on mixed rides and no one has really given me much of a second glance - at least since I got a few skills.
I like that Singletrack has had a few women on the front cover and generally in pictures - I don’t think you have to make a big deal about women riding but if we only ever see blokes in pictures then it does make (me at least) feel a bit invisible. Likewise blokey advertising is a bit ‘is this really for me? Are you really trying to just appeal to 50% of your potential market?’ - I’m thinking of that ad with a near naked woman holding knee pads over her tits. That is certainly not where I wear them.
If you think women do more in the home that says way more about you than society, please grow up and get out more.
By that, presumably you think men do more? Depends on the home, no?
If you think women do more in the home that says way more about you than society, please grow up and get out more.
I think you'll find that faeries assertion is based very much on facts gathered through various studies, but don't let that get in the way of your unnecessary rant.
Oooo, that's toxic lustyd. Can you be civil? I backed up what I said with a link to evidence, not with insults and I recognise that there are exceptions. Why are people taking it so personally and attacking me? Don't speculate as to my personal circumstances, that's just plain nasty. I think that you are confirming what I said earlier about misogyny and sycophantic behaviour, a woman can't have an informed difference of opinion of her own.
Have a cup of tea dear.
calomine?
Faeries assertion is literally the same thing as saying women don't cycle because they are too fragile. It's utter nonsense and is entirely the problem. People are free to do what they want, you want to go cycling? go for it. You want to look after children? go for it. None of these things require genitalia to achieve. We need to defend men at least as much as we defend women to move forwards, and that kind of pushback is just harmful no matter how many "facts" and "studies" you care to quote.
"I backed up what I said with a link to evidence"
No you didn't, there is no evidence here, just studies by people trying to earn a degree using statistics to prove their point. You're not helping either side, you're just stiring the pot and I'm calling you out on it. suggesting men aren't capable or happy in the home is just as bad as suggesting women like to wear pink satin and hate mud. You're not helpful, no matter how intellectual you think you're being. In reality you're just a troll like the rest of them.
Been on the ale tonight lustyd? Maybe step away from the internet for a bit.
No Tom, I just hate sexist people like Faerie. The statement that women have more responsibility in the home is ridiculous in any stable relationship. Responsibility is shared and if you end up otherwise that's your own doing.
Somebody needs a shag.
If that's the case Scotroutes, try Tinder. But wait until the lockdown is over first...
Responsibility is shared and if you end up otherwise that’s your own doing.
I think what is being said is that it can be shown that in a majority of cases (As shown in studies), it ends up otherwise, possibly through choice, possibly necessity, whatever. I imagine a proper 50/50 split is a rare thing, despite it being the ideal. No need to go on a rant dishing out insults to folk relaying the results.
So we need to push mens issues on a thread about misogyny, ignoring the barriers which prevent women from cycling?
And you do this by being aggressive and insulting and in effect telling a mature woman to shut up?
Has someone upset you? There's some great threads on here which have supported other forum users, I hope you find a safe and satisfying outlet for your frustrations. I charge by the hour for "therapy" sessions
Scotroutes, I have a special green tea guaranteed to make you say ahhhh.
Tom it's not the "facts" it's the way they are used, and the way "she" used them was extremely discriminatory. Women don't have an exclusive on being offended by sexist behaviour and statements, and if someone suggests that as a man you can't raise a family then it's absolutely right to reject that behaviour. Discrimination is discrimination regardless of how you dress it up, and we should all fight against these trolls to ensure a more fair future for everyone. As it happens I think mountain biking is one of the more equal sports at all levels with very little real discrimination. As for the OP, some people like pictures of bodies, boobs and boners. That's not sexist, it's just a picture and the offence is imaginary. Throughout history the human body and its various parts have featured in art on stone walls, caves, tattoos, canvas and bike parts. Making a penis out of marble in Italy is no different, yet it draws the crowds every summer because it's "art".
"ignoring the barriers which prevent women from cycling?"
There are zero barriers preventing women from cycling. How is that hard to understand? Buy a bike, ride it, it's literally that simple. I know a lot of men who won't go cycling due to internal mental barriers, that's not a gender issue that's a personal issue. Learn the difference and I guarantee you'll have a happier and more productive life. Men are not stopping you cycling. We won't do something bad if you're cycling on "our" trails. We literally don't care as long as you don't call us fat in lycra.
if someone suggests that as a man you can’t raise a family then it’s absolutely right to reject that behaviour.
Literally no one has done that here.
even where men do pull their weight on practical terms, it tends to be the woman who bears the mental burden of organising the household for things like appointments and food shopping. On average men do 6hrs of domestic stuff a week and women do 16hrs, on top of working full time.
I feel I have to counter that slightly. Appointments and food shopping were more my responsibility than my wife’s - as was cooking. Practical parenting stuff was definitely split 50/50.
I thought Faeries point on free time imbalance was a fair one - I was actually quietly embarrassed that it hadn't really crossed my mind much while I was reading the thread before then. Everyone's relationship setup will be a bit different and this may not be the single biggest reason for differences in participants, but it seems reasonable that it would have an effect.
Lustyd, you are completely twisting what I said. Nowhere did I say that men aren't capable or happy, nor did I suggest that. A stable relationship isn't necessarily an equal one, but I'm not going to go into relationship dynamics now, if you want to do that then start another thread rather than derail what was a fairly rational discussion.
Although kudos for actively demonstrating how women are discouraged from the trails.
As a (mildly) interesting aside - to me anyway - pulled on an old pair of biking shorts for my run this morning - "harlot" they say on the back!
I think Lustyd has lost the plot somewhere. Can anyone help him find it?
I feel I have to counter that slightly. Appointments and food shopping were more my responsibility than my wife’s – as was cooking. Practical parenting stuff was definitely split 50/50.
He said it tends to be the woman's responsibility not that it always is. Your life might be different but on the whole he's right. It's surprising how many people try to disprove a statement on generally tendencies with a single anecdote. It's very solipsistic.
Lustyd’s response says far more about his own issues than it contributes to this discussion.
I certainly don't agree with all comments, but I don't think lustyd is in the wrong for questioning some fairly questionable claims.
you often hear that women are too slow or precious in relation to mtb.
Absolutely never heard this.
If you watch dh, they still have the pretty blondes handing out awards and interviewing the lads.
Just had a flick through Loic Bruni's instagram. Lots of podium and champagne spraying photos and not a pretty blonde in sight. Granted I don't know who delivers the champagne to them, but it's not tour de france style spraying the podium girls with champagne.
Likewise with the interviews, Wyn isn't my idea of a pretty blonde. Or are Christina Chapetta's skills and knowlege being disregarded because she is attractive?
Women downhillers have to have a certain image and qualification (brother/bf) to gain the right to ride, unless you have awesome skills, it is extremely cliquey.
DH is a niche within a niche - it's cliquey for men and women.
and brother/bf, again not something I've come across. I've spent enough time at Revs and BMCC to witness the great atmosphere when someone is pushing themselves and hitting big jumps for the first time - regardless of who they are.
I'm presuming you're getting at Tahnee, Rachel and Tracey (and ignoring the hype around all the others at the top).
Tahnee has a far greater profile than her brother and bf. Other than her Loic, I couldn't tell you the name of any other pro rider's partner so not sure that's a thing.
I think Rachel and Tracey (can't think of any others) have their own profile and identity, but the Atherton brand means Rachel is linked to her brothers a lot.
Lol, Rona you're winning the women's sexual insult bingo. I wonder why mtb in particular has adopted the names in reference to athletes, is it because its popularity rose during lad/ladette culture?
Are we owning the insults and reaffirming them as positive? I'm sure a few were flung at me in the minds of forum users for pointing out that the majority women do most of the housework and childcare. Well done to the men who have raised their hands to say that they do their share, research also suggests that you get recognised for your efforts more often. Your experience isn't reflective of what "most" relationships are like.
I was rattled after the inflammatory comments, insults, and speculation toward me I feel quite isolated and feel the need to state that I'm being objective, I am not a raging feminist who hates men (nor am I a 13yr old boy in an abusive relationship). I'm not commenting on your individual circumstances nor mine, I accept that every situation is different and I'm attempting to raise awareness for those who don't have it as good as you or I do. The venomous attacks on me, for not falling in line and saying that I'll jump on the bandwagon, from men and women on this thread show we have a long way to go in mtb.
Thank you to the guys who have spoken up, I hope my thoughts have been conducive in aiding critical thinking and constructive discussion.
Well, I was going to say we should ignore the crazy but it's a good illustration of 'mansplaining' that was brought up previously:
Woman makes a point and backs it up. Man counters point with insults and belittles them because they feel threatened. Other men jump in with "not all men". Point is lost and drowned out.
Replace woman and man with black and white, gay and straight, Christian and atheist or whatever you choose. The result is always the same with the minority being ignored in favour of the status quo.
I'm not saying I agree with everything Faeire has said, far from it (more the conclusions than the data tbh) but to throw an argument backed up with actual data back at someone with such a dismissive attitude only serves to prove them right. Disagree by all means but do it through constructive, open debate rather than character assassination.
Well done to the men who have raised their hands to say that they do their share
Really? well done. why are you congratulating me? why should I get recognised for my efforts? That is really condescending.
Is it just me that's lacking the "taking offence" gene?
Some people can start a fight just by standing in an empty room and looking in a mirror.
Sorry Poah, I'm aiming to be objective and trying to refrain from being emotive, I'm perhaps a bit blunt as people jump to conclusions and attack me personally. I must have misread posts, how does personal experience debunk research into thousands of people? I read anecdotes as that people see themselves and others doing their darned hardest to do the right thing and want recognition for it, and that I should shut up because it is assumed that I'm an extreme feminist, victim, and that I'm speaking from personal experience.
I'll admit that I am shaken by the vitriol demonstrated on this thread but I hope that I've responded considerately.
Hi faerie - I did laugh! - think I'll be wearing longer jerseys to cover it up. All the best.
I’ll admit that I am shaken by the vitriol demonstrated on this thread
Please don't be. I think most people get what you are trying to say. There are just 1 or 2 on here who I think would fit right in with the Proud Boys movement and are sort of proving the point of the whole thread.
This whole housework thing, the reason its winding people up (using the highly accurate "I reckon" method) is that men don't do enough/do more than enough/just get on with it all at the same time and feel defensive about it - but how do you say that without being accused of or using privilege etc?
Individual anecdote is not evidence, I know that, but in our house my wife does more. domestic stuff, keeps track of what the kids (both under 9) are doing in school and sorts out their appointments. She works part-time and is home just after 2.00. I leave the house at 7am and get home at 6.30. So it's not practical for me to do the school shuttling/appointments unless its the weekend. And even then, loads of the kids things (parties/clubs) are also a social catch up for parents, mostly mums.
Loads of times I offer to sort something out but get told I'll do it wrong, or it's not how it should be done. Stupid stuff like letting the kids choose their own outfits - I don't care what they wear and find it funny if they go out with me looking daft but she worries about what other people think. That's our personalities, not me pressing her as I'm a bloke. I'm northern, she's from the home counties.
I let her know I've done stuff in the house etc but worry that it looks like I'm expecting praise - I'm not, I'm being practical and communicating that one task is taken care of, don't go and do it yourself anyway. Also there's an expectation that I WANT to do something, rather than need to. I don't care if the house is untidy (but clean) but she wants me to care - I put stuff away etc as I know it winds her up but I probably wouldn't if I was on my own.
I don't do as much domestic stuff as I'm out more (at work). Before kids it was much more evenly spread as we'd get home similar time, I did more cooking, went to the supermarket together, and so on. Our situation changed.
I feel guilty about it but its the practical solution. So when I see stuff about women shouldering the burden it annoys me as I'm constantly thinking I should do more, but can't. I don't expect my partner to do anything, but we have to make it work. I don't think I'm unique here.
It's not fair that women get the burden (or take it on) but I'm pretty sure loads of blokes aren't sitting there thinking women should, so men get defensive when challenged about it; as an individual they're not making or expecting women to do anything. You shouldn't shut up faerie, but
how does personal experience debunk research into thousands of people?
well, that's sort of what I'm trying to express. I dunno, it's all communication and nuance, and contradictions. Is MTB misogynistic, probably; is it full of misogynists, probably not. Is it a reflection of wider society, I guess, but as a middle-class middle-aged bloke I'm not misogynistic and get all hurt when it's suggested I (as in men in general) am. But blokes are.
Well, that really clears it up, doesn't it.
Oh, and faerie - I think what you're doing is trying to make things better for people so please do keep doing it, I'll try and be a big boy and not take it personally.
As for the OP, some people like pictures of bodies, boobs and boners. That’s not sexist, it’s just a picture and the offence is imaginary. Throughout history the human body and its various parts have featured in art on stone walls, caves, tattoos, canvas and bike parts. Making a penis out of marble in Italy is no different, yet it draws the crowds every summer because it’s “art”.
I used to think like this when I was younger, but then I really started to think about the issues and tried to understand things from other people's points of view rather than simply dismissing them. Humanity is not rational, it's all about how people feel, after all.
Objectively you are right - a picture of boobs is just a reflection of what many men like, and is no different to a picture of a hunky man. But in reality, it IS different because of history and gender dynamics.
Another example - theoretically the word **** is no different from the word Brit, it's just an abbreviation of someone's place of origin. But in reality it IS very different indeed.
Anyway back on topic - is MTBing more or less misogynistic than the rest of society?
