I ride a 100 miles a week road but pretty much exclusively use my e-bike off road now. I went up a local Corbett yesterday and would have gone for a run rather than grind up a hill if I didn’t have the e-bike. Guess that makes me one of those giving up? 
There’s a total lack of joined up thinking in modern medicine regarding biomechanics
Outlive by Peter Attia is a well regarded book on this subject.
So you think you know better than people who study this stuff for year and are experts in the field. Very good.
their recommendations are for an average person, not for someone who trains for strength and mobility. a sure fire way to protect yourself from injury from lifting things is to train your body to be able to lift heavier things safely. it is also good for reducing the loss of strength and mobility as you age, which leads to injury and illness.
sorry for going off topic, anyway, e-bikes, they are too expensive for me to be able to afford one, so i’ve no idea if they are giving up.
TJ the limits in that diagramme are self evidently bollocks for a huge percentage of the population.
Quite simply because the population is so different.
Any manual handling course I've done in the past 10+ years has given no maximum or recommended maximum weights. Instead it's been a case of only lifting what you feel comfortable lifting, as 10kg for some people is too much, whereas others will quite comfortably lift 10kg with a finger or two.
10 pages of people asserting their opinions as fact, refusing to acknowledge that other peoples opinions might be equally as valid... 10 whole pages!
I'd say this was peak STW, but I'm pretty sure this is a new low...
jameso made this comment back on page 2 of this thread...
Like it or not in time MTB will be a powered sport for the majority and riding off-road on a standard MTB is a future niche.
Those of us that work in the industry and are aware of purchasing trends know that unassisted MTB's above £2k have been on the decline sales wise for 5 years or more in the UK market, whilst during the same period eMTB's have seen continual growth until 2023 when they have plateaued somewhat. For sure, there is some lag behind shop floor sales and what is witnessed in trail centre car parks percentage wise, but rest assured that sales wise, unassisted MTB's above a certain price point have been a minority for a number of years now rather than the majority...
You may not like these facts, and may wish to dispute them (hell, I'm sure there are people that have posted on this thread already that "know" I am talking bollocks, but they are probably the same people that said disc brakes would never have any place on road bikes, electronic gears would never take off, dropper posts were only for people who didn't have the skills to descend properly already and that 29er wheels on MTB's were the work of the devil!), but here we are, with me whose job it is to keep my finger on the pulse of the industry and report back the findings, telling you that for 4yrs running (2019-22 inclusive) eMTB's saw a significant rise in sales in the UK where unassisted MTB's above about £2k saw a significant downturn in sales at the same time.
FWIW, STW does not represent a particularly honest representation of the market as a whole... Why? You tell me... Maybe the typical person who has £5k+ to spend on an eBike doesn't have the time to spend perusing the internet all day picking arguments with people they don't know...? Who knows...
I've been riding MTB for over 30yrs. I will never not have a conventional unassisted bike in my fleet, and subjectively I still prefer the feeling of riding a lightweight unassisted bike on trails than I do a heavier eMTB on the same trails... But there's no argument against eMTB's allowing us to ride further, or faster, or more often, or without excuses that simply makes them more popular and more accessible for those with the means to own one!
You were doing so well and then you said you have a fleet.
10 pages of people asserting their opinions as fact, refusing to acknowledge that other peoples opinions might be equally as valid
If you are going to lead with this possibly best not to double down on it yourself.
whilst during the same period eMTB’s have seen continual growth until 2023 when they have plateaued somewhat
Not overly useful when we are considering a new product. What you have just said is a market going from emerging to growth to mature.
but rest assured that sales wise, unassisted MTB’s above a certain price point have been a minority for a number of years now rather than the majority…
isnt that pretty much by definition since to get the same capability in an e-bike it will be going into that "certain price point"? A half decent hardtail emtb will cost the same as my pretty decent full sus and
I guess if I could be arsed spending 5k I would have a motor in it or just do the job fully and go for a motorbike.
That said when I was at whinlatter midweek I did seem to be the only one on a nonelectric bike. Oddly didnt see any elsewhere during that week though.
That said when I was at whinlatter midweek I did seem to be the only one on a nonelectric bike. Oddly didnt see any elsewhere during that week though.
Is that a trail centre type place where it's up/down the up/down repeat? These are the places where, for me anyway, ebikes excell, just wallop up, fly down, back up, down etc etc. it's the whole ethos of them imo.
A nice ride and day out with rolling hills, I'm not as convinced.
That said, after Afan today on the MTB, I .ay Eeb it tomorrow if the knee plays up.
Like it or not in time MTB will be a powered sport for the majority and riding off-road on a standard MTB is a future niche.
I agree with this.
I would guess that the people on STW who don't own ebikes are becoming the minority.
And as we're 10 pages in, it's time to talk about capitalism and its unwavering ability to create great things and then to destroy them.
Who would have thought that the big problem that needed solving in mountain bikes was the need to pedal them? That feature of a bicycle that makes it so beautifully simple, healthy, affordable and efficient.
Hey ho.
Can’t we just talk bikes? Keep it bikey and forget everything else. You’re thinking too deeply
Sorry to have disturbed you.
Maybe buy yourself a new bike to take your mind off it.
Sorry to have disturbed you.
Maybe buy yourself a new bike to take your mind off it.
Lol that it? We're going to start having a pop if you don't like it? Stop being silly.
It's a bike forum, let's talk bikes. Keep your political ideal to somewhere else
Is that a trail centre type place where it’s up/down the up/down repeat?
Yeah and there are some pretty boring fireroad ascents but does mix it up a bit so not sure it ticks the wallop up and then down box.
I think it is as arguable for the rolling hills ride so long as the battery doesnt give out.
“Who would have thought that the big problem that needed solving in mountain bikes was the need to pedal them? That feature of a bicycle that makes it so beautifully simple, healthy, affordable and efficient.”
What makes an ebike so efficient is that you pedal it - and the motor helps as wanted/needed. If you step away from MTBing to general transport use the ebike has so much potential for the following reasons:
1. When it’s cold you can pedal harder to keep warm (ever commuted on a scooter or motorbike in the winter? You have to wear ALL the clothes and you still arrive frozen on cold days).
2. When it’s hot you can pedal softer so you don’t arrive a sweaty mess (we all know what it’s like when your destination is reached via an uphill).
3. When it’s hilly you can let the motor help so it’s more like walking to work (loads of people would choose to walk if they lived close enough). Riding bikes uphill is too much like sport for many people.
4. When there’s a strong headwind it’s no longer horrible (I like pedalling uphill on any bike but big headwinds are horrible).
5. When you’re tired or it’s a long way the motor can make it so much more pleasant - not everyone wants their commute to be a work-out.
We need the world to switch to more efficient forms of transport and the ebike is one of the most powerful tools to achieve that change. I see more and more older people out on bikes, both in town and the countryside and they’re usually on e-bikes. Yes, they’re still expensive and far from faultless but I believe they’re a very good thing.
Yep, they make a lot of sense for commuting. I’d rather go road riding than get one for mountain biking though, I want to get to the top, knock off big loops under my own power, others aren’t as bothered, and that’s fine.
And as we’re 10 pages in, it’s time to talk about capitalism and its unwavering ability to create great things and then to destroy them.
Oh here we go. Ebikes are the destroyers of society.
Come the revolution brother Copa, our glorious comrade chairman will make us all equal by mandating unassisted pedal bikes. I'm sure it will all be perfect when you're in charge!
I would guess that the people on STW who don’t own ebikes are becoming the minority
lolz
I would guess that the people on STW who don’t own ebikes are becoming the minority.
ANd the only bike I ride puts me in a tiny minority of that minority. I can however see the appeal and benefits of them to many people so rather than giving up it should just be making things easier while still riding.
At 55 I don't want to make things easier for the type of riding I do but I may do when I am 65 so I would buy one without feeling like I was giving up.
Ebikes, especially emtb, are gopping to look at.
Those of us that work in the industry and are aware of purchasing trends know that unassisted MTB’s above £2k have been on the decline sales wise for 5 years or more in the UK market, whilst during the same period eMTB’s have seen continual growth until 2023 when they have plateaued somewhat.
Based on seeing/hearing trying to sell decent spec MTB's, seems right.
I did nearly 30 miles and 4500ft on mine yesterday, rode from home, met a few pals and rode our local trails (some natural, some built).
Before I bought the eeb I did equivalent rides on my non-eebs (which I still have) but yesterday rather than pushing up some of the climbs (it was very muddy), I rode them.
Ebikes, especially emtb, are gopping to look at.
My Kenevo SL? Looks like an Enduro IMO, or are you someone who's still on canti's?
MTBs over £2000 would be a small part of the bikes sold surely?
Lumping like, a third of your body weight, over your head, when it’s an awkward shape and flaps around, is not to be sniffed at.
If you're having issues with your head flapping around, you probably need to look hard at your core neck strength or wear a lighter helmet. I'm not sure you can do much about head shape without drastic surgery mind 🙂
If you think differently then please can we do the four passes next spring for a laugh. I want to see this…
I'm very much looking forward to this, though I won't be on an e-mtb. Wasn't there a STW video of something similar?
Ebikes, especially emtb, are gopping to look at.
It's true, most of them do look terrible with their oversized TT and BB areas. Especially those Haibikes. The only one I've seen that looks good is the Orbea Rise.
They look like pregnant fish to me. That’s all I can see when I look at an eMTB for some reason. Honestly can’t believe this has made it to ten pages. I’m desperately thinking of something to enrage the hardliners on both sides of the debate to keep this going. 🤔
To me they look like the van and 4X4 driving tubbies dressed in the latest of road pyjams who ride them, Then you look at the people who arrive in vans and 4X4s with other sorts of bike and they look just the same.
PS. I am old, overweight and slow. I can't lift heavy weights above my head and spring over gates and deer fences.
Just smile and wave 🙂
I am getting old, I’m out of shape and could stand to lose a bit of lard. I have caveman genes though and can lift heavy unwieldy objects and carry them about relatively easily. I especially like how people have explained to me that carrying bikes across obstacles can be difficult. Like I’ve never done so in all my years of riding 😂
The HSE diagrams posted by TJ are eye opening. One suspects that the weights are so low to protect employers. Could just be me being cynical though.
Sometimes it's not about what you can do , but what you choose to do.
I am 70 I go cycling and sea kayaking and can get my bikes and kayaks on the car by myself.
I don't do this because being slightly more evolved I don't risk injury unless I there is no viable alternative.
I can get a normal bike over a locked deer fence but I doubt I could do this with a heavy bike.
No - I said lifting an ebike over a fence is difficult for me*. How can I possibly comment on others? Just because I dont want to make a particular purchase is not equal to condemning anyone else who does. Likewise why should I be told to get one. Honestly, I am fine with them - would love to give one a go but not in the market for one just yet.
* well I could do it, it would hurt, but unless you reverse the arrow of time, not for much longer.
You were doing so well and then you said you have a fleet.
A tongue in cheek comment I made on purpose, precisely to catch out the "offended by everything, holier than thou" contingent... I didn't expect to get a bite in the very next comment mind!
If you are going to lead with this possibly best not to double down on it yourself.
Ah yes... Michael Gove's "we're all tired of experts" argument... Nice try!
Not overly useful when we are considering a new product. What you have just said is a market going from emerging to growth to mature.
Correct... But it does seem you like to ignore any context to get your point across... Where the eMTB market above a certain price point (I did also say "above £2k" elsewhere in my last post) have been growing then maturing, conventional unassisted MTB's have been in decline all the while. There was certainly a spike in demand for sub £2k conventional MTB's in 2020-21, but that demand rapidly died off once the market was saturated and is now evidenced by shops selling stock off crazily cheap in many cases.
I guess if I could be arsed spending 5k I would have a motor in it or just do the job fully and go for a motorbike
You are aware that you can't ride a motorbike (electric or otherwise) on MTB trails right...? Or in fact many places other than the UK road network (and some approved bridleways in Wales). Or are you just being obtuse for the sake of it...?
Who would have thought that the big problem that needed solving in mountain bikes was the need to pedal them?
It has been said many times on this thread already, but I will repeat once more as clearly the point isn't getting through to some... eMTB's still need pedalling! They don't have a throttle, they don't do the work for you, they merely provide you with some assistance when you start doing the work yourself...
Ebikes, especially emtb, are gopping to look at.
5yrs ago I'd have agreed firmly... Todays current crop of eBikes, most of them you can barely tell they have a motor or battery fitted from a silhouette.
I guess if you only find old school skinny tubed steel hardtail frames attractive then no eBike is likely to satisfy your taste buds, but my Orbea Rise has a slimmer downtube than many unassisted bikes and an almost entirely hidden motor. My GF couldn't believe it was actually an eBike when she first saw it... There are bikes out there with the latest TQ motor that is entirely concentric to the BB axle that you cannot tell they are an eBike at all until you notice a display or any extra buttons on the bars or top tube.
MTBs over £2000 would be a small part of the bikes sold surely?
Bikes sold overall...? Or MTB's sold overall? The sub £2k MTB market saw a massive boom in 2020-21 due to COVID, but this sector became quite oversupplied and as such this sector has taken quite a dive through 2022-23. I don't have the data to hand right now (it is available from the Bicycle Association for anybody that wished to get access to it) but you would probably be surprised how expensive average bike sales are these days... Though I should qualify, the data doesn't include Supermarket BSO's which would obviously alter the balance somewhat...
I won’t buy one because we’re clearly due a massive solar flare soon, this I believe will render them all useless. Explain that one smartasses!
It's a calculated risk that many of us have chosen to take... People still buy houses on flood plains understanding the potential pitfalls, which puzzles me far more and is likely to be a more immediate issue...
To me they look like the van and 4X4 driving tubbies dressed in the latest of road pyjams who ride them, Then you look at the people who arrive in vans and 4X4s with other sorts of bike and they look just the same.
Where would the world be without stereotypes...? No, seriously... Where would we be?
Personally I don't judge others for how they derive their enjoyment (unless it is derived at someone else's expense). There are people in this world who enjoy country music, football, or even reality TV... All things I actively avoid, but there are many more people in the world that enjoy these things than do riding MTB's, so I find it best not to judge...
"Methinks the fella doth protest too much"
From both sides of course
Those of us that work in the industry and are aware of purchasing trends know that unassisted MTB’s above £2k have been on the decline sales wise for 5 years or more in the UK market, whilst during the same period eMTB’s have seen continual growth until 2023 when they have plateaued somewhat. For sure, there is some lag behind shop floor sales and what is witnessed in trail centre car parks percentage wise, but rest assured that sales wise, unassisted MTB’s above a certain price point have been a minority for a number of years now rather than the majority…
You may not like these facts, and may wish to dispute them (hell, I’m sure there are people that have posted on this thread already that “know” I am talking bollocks, but they are probably the same people that said disc brakes would never have any place on road bikes, electronic gears would never take off, dropper posts were only for people who didn’t have the skills to descend properly already and that 29er wheels on MTB’s were the work of the devil!), but here we are, with me whose job it is to keep my finger on the pulse of the industry and report back the findings, telling you that for 4yrs running (2019-22 inclusive) eMTB’s saw a significant rise in sales in the UK where unassisted MTB’s above about £2k saw a significant downturn in sales at the same time.
FWIW, STW does not represent a particularly honest representation of the market as a whole… Why? You tell me… Maybe the typical person who has £5k+ to spend on an eBike doesn’t have the time to spend perusing the internet all day picking arguments with people they don’t know…? Who knows…
I’ve been riding MTB for over 30yrs. I will never not have a conventional unassisted bike in my fleet, and subjectively I still prefer the feeling of riding a lightweight unassisted bike on trails than I do a heavier eMTB on the same trails… But there’s no argument against eMTB’s allowing us to ride further, or faster, or more often, or without excuses that simply makes them more popular and more accessible for those with the means to own one!
That's some serious verbal commitment right there, but I'm struggling to see what the relevance is to the OP's question.
Just because shit loads of people do something doesn't mean that something is the apotheosis of its genre.... Eg Greggs and Macdonalds.
It has been said many times on this thread already, but I will repeat once more as clearly the point isn’t getting through to some… eMTB’s still need pedalling!
They do because that's mechanically what's required for the motor to work.
But whenever any kind of substantial effort is required, such as going up a mountain, people are doing little more than waggling their legs.
At the end of the day it's riding a bike and any bike is fun.
It's just that sometimes you don't realise it's fun until later.
Ride whatever pleases you.
At the end of the day it’s riding a bike and any bike is fun.
[tongue in cheek] NO @bruce, you are enjoying yourself in a way that some other people don't approve of. How very dare you go about your own business without first consulting them about how you should enjoy your own time. [/tongue in cheek]. You must suffer to have them wag their fingers at you and scowl disapprovingly.
I’m neither offended or holier than anything. I’m just poking people with sticks to see how many pages this can go.
No surprise that e-bikes are selling well when compared to normal bikes. People are generally lazy bastards and love new and shiny. I am surprised at the percentages though as they’re ****ing expensive. Are people that well off or just getting in to debt?
A lot of people are well off. The cost of living crisis that the media like to mention every 10 minutes is for those that were already struggling and the thought of buying a bike for the amount that the well off ebikers spend on a tyre would be out of their reach.
Is this thread just an ecu chamber of those justifying their pathetic behaviour?
You need to look at who's buying eMTBs, and they roughly fall in to two categories.
You have those who've bought them in addition to a normal MTB, so they're essentially buying a new category of bike instead of typically replacing an existing bike.
Then you have those who're relatively new to the sport, or getting back into it. This is probably where the biggest growth has come from, as it's the demographic that previously might have tried hiring a MTB, realised it's actually hard work to cycle up a hill and not bothered trying it again, but an eMTB means they no longer have that fitness barrier.
In terms of overall sales, I'd say that if it hadn't been for the new riders, MTB sales overall would have been majorly down. Knowing those in the trade, it's got a similar feeling to the banking crash, where sales nosedived, however this time they've been partially propped up by new riders.
Plus there are a lot of existing riders who've simply been upgrading existing bikes. They've looked at replacing their bike, but what are they actually going to get with a 'new' bike? The answer is not a lot 'new'. Geometry has pretty much stabilised. There's no new latest and greatest wheel size. No new major developments in suspension.
So rather than spend several £k on a 'new' bike, they've been spending a £k or 2 on upgrades.
It's not as simple as saying eMTBs are the future because they are selling more. You need to look at the reasons behind the numbers.
