Following my recent rediscovery of "Hardcore/Progressive" HTs for riding my local trails, the odd trail centre, and possibly Uplift days, is it a ridiculous idea to assemble an "uplift only" or "Downhill HT" I remember DH-HTs sort of being a thing back in the 00's (I had one) but they weren't really much good IME. With the advent of 29"/Mullet wheels, chonkier tyres and better 150mm+ forks is the concept a bit more viable?
(Noting I am very out of touch with DH riding/racing in general now).
In my Head there's a half formed plan to buy a cheaper Steel or Alu frame and used suitable fork, throw on some basic wheels, and either run it SS or with a short Cassette (SS would be simpler), no Dropper and just have a Hack machine that I don't mind destroying .
The way the S/H market is at the moment, it’d be no more expensive to buy a semi decent used proper DH bike from a few years ago, service it and crack on.
The tracks have moved on from the mid 00’s whereas a hardtail is still a hardtail. 20-30mm of extra fork travel won’t change that.
The way the S/H market is at the moment, it’d be no more expensive to buy a semi decent used proper DH bike from a few years ago, service it and crack on.
I seriously doubt that, certainly not a DH bike I’d want to own now, plus I just don’t want to pay for bearings or a rear shock service, just tyres and maybe the odd new wheel now and then TBH. Just a thing I throw in the garage and mostly neglect between trips to BPW, rotate or Cwmcarn… nowt fancy.
Plus I don’t think I’m going to suddenly become a Gnarr monster now. I’ve owned DH bikes, I didn’t have the talent or speed, it was still fun, but so is being “under-biked” in a strange way as well… I won’t be racing.
if courses have really become utterly unrideable on a HT in the last 20 years then fine, but I reckon there’s scope for what I’m envisaging…
really I was just wondering if the old concept of a DH-HT Had just fallen by the wayside completely, it seems it might have.
I’ve not had one for a while, but when I did it was great fun. It’s a very different style of riding, and can be bloody hard work, but on the right track it’s great fun.
I’d argue that a skilled rider can get a hardtail down any track in the UK. You won’t be fast and it won’t be pretty, heck, it might not even be fun, but it’s definitely possible.
I don't own one and I've never ridden one, but is something like the On One Hello Dave what you're looking for? Hello Dave
I think most agressive hardtails are trail/enduro focussed, but there are some more agro options out there.
I reckon you would be fine, definitely get beaten up more than on an fs, but ultimately the only places I suspect you might have an issue is at revs or the Scottish dh venues (fort bill and glencoe). Everywhere else should be doable with care and consideration.
BTR do the belter which is designed purely as a downhill hardtail. Chromag have some wild frames iirc. Sounds like a lot of fun to me!
I ride a hard tail a lot. This summer we spent a day downhilling in Italy on V10's. I could've ridden everything on my hard tail but I wouldn't have managed 8 runs on it. My arms were agony as it was, probably due slightly to the suspension set up but mostly because I'm not used to doing close to 30km of descending in a day.
To some degree a good HT rider can get away with a lot. A guy at the most recent local weekend Enduro race I was at raced day 1 on his HT and day 2 on his FS. I'd argue it was the roughest tracks of the season (still not terrible but with some good rock gardens) and he won both the HT category and the Masters category. His times were almost identical (still a fair way behind the overall Elite winner Jared Graves though who was technically Masters, too).
I still ride DH on a hardtail, though probably not going as big as I used to but that's not the bike holding me back tbh. I've always flip flopped between hardtail and full suspension, even when I had a nice FS it was hard to resist going back to a HT!
Used to do a lot of uplift days with my old Trailstar, the trails haven't really changed that much since those days but a modern geometry hardtail with big 29" tyres is a lot more capable than that old bike.
Kinda want to get the new Cotic BFe as a descent focused hardtail, looks a lot of fun and has the mullet option which I'd like to try out.
Used to do a lot of uplift days with my old Trailstar, the trails haven't really changed that much since those days but a modern geometry hardtail with big 29" tyres is a lot more capable than that old bike.
Kinda want to get the new Cotic BFe as a descent focused hardtail, looks a lot of fun and has the mullet option which I'd like to try out.
I also took a trailstar down some Old DH courses waaay back when. a 456 as well, both great fun, but 26” and plain gauge steel frames weren’t exactly “supple”.
As for modern options, I’m not thinking BFE budget, but similar style of frame. I’m two rides in with a mulleted mmmbop and that’s partly what had inspired my musings. The mmmbop is capable enough, and will probably get taken to BPW sooner or later.
The thing I have in my head is a stripped back version of that bike really with a longer fork, if it’s for uplifts then no dropper is needed, to minimise mech hazards run it as a slightly tall single speed ratio (which I did do on my old trailstar).
There’s lots of frame options, 29 or 27.5” I really just want a reach number around 460mm, a head angle below 65deg and clearance for a 2.6”(+) rear tyre. Mullet with a shorter stay feels right to me, but then something like the Hello Dave would be a very long, stable platform, possibly easier to live with on long days, but less nimble on techs stuff(?).
Big rotors and a 150mm+ fork and you’re away, that’s could be built from spares and 2nd hand stuff for Sub £600 I reckon, and it pays for itself by being hurled down hills a handful of times a year in place of a nicer bike…
I think I’ll start shopping for bits over winter.
Didn't do the Triple Blacks, but most of the other stuff at Dyfi recently.
Was on my 180mm travel ebike but remember thinking we didn't ride much of anything I wouldn't have done on my HT
There’s a huge Hardtail only thread on the NSMB forum which might be useful to you.
what about something like a Chromag Doctahawk, Hello Dave or Moxie?
I have a 140mm hardtail with a 63.5 head angle (-2 Works headset) and up until this year has been my only bike for the last 5 years. I’ve not really ridden it down any Black DH tracks but I used it on pretty much everything at FOD trail centre and other local trails and really like it.
It’s Geo is: HA 63.5*. Reach 440. Rear centre 440. Seat tube 425 and it’s been great. I think I’d want a bit more reach and travel if it was going to just be for DH but it’s a lot of fun.
I bought an XL size Hello Dave when they first came out for the very reason the OP mentioned. I'd always ridden hardtail DH right back to a Spooky Metalhead but also owned plenty of DH/enduro bikes at the same time.
The new generation of XL/slack hardtails are often faster than a full suss on UK tracks especially where there are trails with 'pump' and smooth corners to power out of. Trails like BPW Sixtapod are hardtail heaven.
The downsides are you get beaten up more and you have to be absolutely 'on it' to extract anything out of them. There's also a lack of control where you'll be on the absolute edge but that just adds to the fun!
I'm retired from hooning nowadays but can highly recommend an Hello Dave, I would avoid anything aluminium as even though steel CEN frames are overbuilt nowadays they still have some 'give' when highly loaded in corners etc that aluminium doesn't do.
@cookeaa make sure you update the thread when you find something suitable in budget, as your description sounds spot on for me too 🙂 a used Honzo ESD might be cool for you, they never seem to show up though. Another alternative (maybe out of budget though) could be a custom Marino.
Another alternative (maybe out of budget though) could be a custom Marino.
I have a brand new unridden Marino that I may be selling.
Long story but I ended up with two of them and one never got built.
I still regularly use the other one here on our steep offpiste trails.
Let us know if you want any details/pictures.
I took my Marley to Antur Stiniog.
I’m glad I did and had a lot of fun, but I wouldn’t do it again, because my full sus is so much more comfortable and less tiring in that situation.
For me, the beauty of my hardtail is its flexibility to do multiple things and the fact that it makes easier riding more fun. But I wouldn’t want to build one up specifically for a use case where there is a far better option.
Maybe try and find one of the newer longshot BFe frames? I had to be and honest slightly regret selling a 27.5 one and was a stupid capable thing whilst also feeling surprisingly normal for general riding as well.
Until very recently I've mostly ridden my Soul (27.5 with 130mm fork) which for context has mostly been in Tweed Valley - GT, Golfie, Thornielee. [Yorkshire accent] I grew up ridin' ardtails, lad and its what I like [/] so as said above it might be a bit slower but what's your aim - further & faster with less effort, or a complete workout for a couple of hours coming away feeling beaten up?
I test rode a BFe recently - mullet with 150mm forks. It was also great fun, still hard work maybe slightly less but I couldn't justify the price for what it would give me over the Soul - too much overlap in the great Venn diagram of bikes.
More recently I've ridden my 10 year old Canyon Spectral which has been fun but I miss the "rawness" of riding a hardtail. Its just that I'm not 25 any more (very nearly double in fact).
Cheers all some useful input.
TBH I'm sort of agnostic on material, I think it's more likely to be Aluminium just because there's more used Alu frames about now, and steel frames seem to get a little "overvalued" on the used market. I'm not so sure I believe in the inherent magic of steel (especially when built to a budget) as much as I do the cushioning effects of a wider tyre, like I said, I owned some of the classic Gas pipe built frames in the 26" era...
I did use the angle finder app on my mmmbop the other day, which said 61deg for the static head angle, which seems bonkers slack (the 29er wheen and longer fork push it back ~2 degrees), but once sagged with my lardy arse on it it feels pretty good.
I think as I'm considering a longer fork and quite probably more mullteing, something with a slightly more upright stock head angle could make sense. The Sonder Transmitter is oddly tempting as those are going new for £200 right now; in large the reach suits me, a 65deg Head angle with a 160mm/29er front end would go back to something like ~63ish? it's a candidate. But I'm in no rush, just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's the right option...
At the other end of things a used Hello Dave is also tempting (and they seem to be coming up used more now) just because it's more "like a DH bike" than a trail bike on paper. Possibly more comfortabl(?) an better suited to a full day of hammering, My only concern it the long rear end might make it a bit unweildy in places.
@singlespeedstu That frame looks interesting, sort of similar in some ways to the Hello Dave, a bit long for me I think. But I'm also interested in how you ended up going for a Marino (and it it's not too nosey why you opted not to build it?). Their prices are pretty reasonable for custom frame, maybe still a smidge more than I'm, looking to spend, but you never know...
...but what's your aim - further & faster with less effort, or a complete workout for a couple of hours coming away feeling beaten up?...
Probably more the latter, solid beating every once in a while (for minimal expenditure). As I said above I've now got a mulleted mmmbop, which I reckon (arguably) achieves 90% of what that BFE you tested does, for substantially less spend, it's a good working trail HT, I don't want to mess with it so a second really basic HT starts making sense (IMO).
But I'm also interested in how you ended up going for a Marino (and it it's not too nosey why you opted not to build it?).
I ended up with a Marino as they were at the time a reasonable price for a custom frame and I couldn't get what I wanted from a stock frame.
I've not built it up because it's exactly the same as the one I'm still riding.
As I said it's a long story how I ended up with two identical (apart from I've had the one I ride re powder coated a different colour to the original raw with clearcoat) frames, but one is just sat in the spare room doing nothing so really should just move it on.
Hardtails on DH/Enduro trails are great 🙂
I've ridden most of the BPW trails on my HT (Ragley Bluepig with 63.25 HA and 150 forks) and had no trouble keeping up with mates on full-susses.
Last year we did a load of the Minehead Enduro trails, some of which are very steep and lumpy, again had no issues on the HT.
IMO you need a different technique on a HT - more aware of line choice and it pushes you to be more active on the bike. HT riders aren't better riders per se, but I think it does make you a better rider overall.
In fact I've just bought a Pipedream Moxie (V3 longer) frame - I like the Ragley, but fancied something with slidey dropouts so I can SS the bike if I want to.
My Pace RC627 with 150mm forks was a right laugh and with its short back end and smaller wheels was a tonic to my big and long 29er full suss. I had 2.6 tyres with wide rims and it could cope with anything my full suss could although my ability tops out at around the red/black BPW level.
IMO you need a different technique on a HT - more aware of line choice and it pushes you to be more active on the bike. HT riders aren't better riders per se, but I think it does make you a better rider overall.
Oh it definitely does! Ha
Thing is, I can't go much faster on the FS bike because my natural appetite for speed fits nicely with how fast I go on the hardtail (cause / effect?). The FS just scares me and I fall off more. So yeah not better, but different.
“TBH I'm sort of agnostic on material, I think it's more likely to be Aluminium just because there's more used Alu frames about now, and steel frames seem to get a little "overvalued" on the used market. I'm not so sure I believe in the inherent magic of steel…”
Having gone steel, aluminium, steel, with my last three hardtails, whilst also going 10mm longer fork and a wheel size bigger each time, I don’t believe in the “inherent magic of steel” but my experience has shown me that a well designed steel frame is a more enjoyable riding experience.
I know some steel frames are stiffer than their alloy equivalent (I believe that’s the case with your Ragley) but both my Soul and Moxie had/have this ability to feel calmer, smoother, more controlled, both when riding at a more chilled pace and when on the limit of my ability. The alloy hardtail in between liked to be pushed harder and then it woke up but then at full tilt it was buzzier.
I don’t think it’s a frame damping thing, as both alloys ring for ages, but I think it’s a mix of stiffness (steel itself is stiffer but smaller diameter tubes are bendier, especially with significant butting), and resonant frequencies of the tubes. Aluminium “pings”, steel “dongs”.
”I did use the angle finder app on my mmmbop the other day, which said 61deg for the static head angle, which seems bonkers slack (the 29er wheen and longer fork push it back ~2 degrees), but once sagged with my lardy arse on it it feels pretty good.”
This sounds like a perfect downhill hardtail - you don’t need another bike!
My Moxie has a 63 deg static HA and 160mm fork. Feels great for all sorts of riding from XC to as steep as I dare. But if it was dedicated to just descending steep stuff I’d probably take the fork out to 170mm and add an angleset - but it wouldn’t be as good on flatter twisty singletrack.
This sounds like a perfect downhill hardtail - you don’t need another bike!
I'd agree, but when I talk a bout a "DH HT" I do really mean something stripped of all the superfluous stuff which my mmmbop has (and does make it a good trail HT). Lose the dropper, big old Cassette (I'm still into the idea of single speed) and just simplify it.
I'd be OK with the same frame, or a blue pig, with a similar mullet wheelset, wide bars, 35mm stem and the only controls being brakes, it would probably be a good ~2kg lighter (not that would really matter apart from when lifting it no/off of uplift trailers).
But also I shouldn't get drawn into the numbers game too much here, Static Head angles are obviously rather meaningless on a HT, just a useful comparison number, Reach is arguably about as important IMO and there needs to be a bit of tolerance considered with all of these things. like I said Sub 65deg HA and ~460mm reach and I'll generally be comfortable descending on any given HT.
I saw a chap at Chatel Bike Park ripping the course up on Banshee Paradox. I've got an Enigma (27.5) which is a hoot when im not riding the RUNE. It's got some odd compliance in the stays which doesnt give it the usual "smashed about" feel and it's uber nippy in tighter stuff. The onyl time i really notice im not riding the bouncy bike s when is screw up a jump, or get into big rooty/rocky sections where i cant adjust quick enough.
I wouldn't really want one, but if you forced me to then I'd look for something with longer chainstays - to introduce a bit of stability and comfort (whichever material).
If you're in no hurry, then PX will probably be punting the Hello Dave frame out cheap at some point.
The sheer stupid capability of some of the modern ones makes it pretty great imo. Like, I used to enjoy it even on my bfe and then more so on my ragley ti so of course I do it on my ridiculous Titus Loco Moto. Best fork you can afford in the front, biggest chonkiest rear tyre you can find, and have at it.
I don't race any more, tbh I was never totally comfortable doing pointy-end dh or even enduro racing on a hardtail, fact is unless you're a god you're going to be slower and sooner or later you're probably going to screw up someone's race run. Or if you're me, be constantly looking over your shoulder and never able to relax, which I hated. But for just riding, sure. Most fun I ever had at fort william was on a hardtail.
“Head angles are obviously rather meaningless on a HT”
They’re no more meaningless than they are on a full-sus. I’d argue a slack head angle matters more on a hardtail because they steepen with sag and get a lot steeper (momentarily) at bottom out.
“it would probably be a good ~2kg lighter”
I really don’t think that matters at all! My Moxie is the heaviest most hardtail I’ve ever owned (despite being the only one without gears) and it’s easily the best and the fastest.
Like I said HA and reach are and indicator of where you as a rider will fit on the bike and how far ahead of you the front axle potentially ends up, but these are just numbers for gauging and comparing, they don’t tell you everything, that was my point.
As for weight, you’re right doesn’t matter really, but a “flickable” bike might handle a smidge better in some situations with the mass of some unnecessary components removed, if it’s unbearable I can always add gears later.
I do recognise I’m describing quite a niche bike in some ways (these days at least)…
“Like I said HA and reach are and indicator of where you as a rider will fit on the bike and how far ahead of you the front axle potentially ends up…”
The most important thing about head angle is the resulting self-centering of the front wheel due to the trail caused by the combination of head angle, wheel sizes, and fork offset. Having a big trail measurement is what makes a bike stable through the rough at speed, and it’s particularly important on a hardtail because the rear wheel inputs are more destabilising.
I think a lighter rear is a good thing on a hardtail but you just need to make your current bike singlespeed if you want that.
What will make the biggest difference in a hardtail’s ability downhill (after the geometry) is a great fork that’s correctly set up. With the more advanced dampers you can sit constantly in the travel, never feeling bouncy, never smashing through the travel, never topping out when unloaded, just calm. That’s a far far better place to spend money than on another bike.
Thanks for the input, as I said up the page, I already have a HT, it’s very capable, but it’s set up for general trail use with a good fork and I am keeping it that way now.
Hence my desire to build another similarly laid out, but differently equipped HT for the “edge case” that is uplift/DH use. You’re right I don’t need another bike, but I’m technically an adult and therefore allowed to cave to the occasional want now and then 😉.
(Plus I’ve just won a speculative bit on an old Pike on eBay, so I’m off with the idea now)…
The pile should be fine, honestly given an option I would try for a helm mk2 coil or ohlins. I have the helm on my ns 29er ht and it is an absolute rocket. Wouldn't have any issues taking that to antur etc, other than preferring to be on the scout or dh bike
honestly given an option I would try for a helm mk2 coil or ohlins.
I’m working at a much lower price point here, given the choice and budget I’d have another Mezzer like I have on the mmmbop, but there’s not many about used, and they seem to hold their value used somehow.
A used pike will suit the application.
Fair, I got really lucky with a pair of helm mk2 on Ebay a while back. Otherwise would be doing similar
I’m back on my old Hello Dave with 160mm Zebs after a brief spell on a BFEmax that ended with a cracked frame after going deep on the big Oakley drop at Dyfi!!! Handled Slab track, fire in the booth etc. it was less fun at BPW as that’s flatter so you can’t carry as much speed. Fun at my local ish dh at Gawton though. They are wicked fun, personally I’d go full 29er to smooth out a bit more, and an insert in the rear. Not the most appropriate tool for the job but plenty of fun to be had!
Well if you want to build a DH hardtail that’s less good at going downhill than your current hardtail (Mezzer>Pike) then knock yourself out! (hopefully not literally…)
Personally I think a hardtail’s head angle should be 2 degrees slacker than its full suspension counterpart to take into account sag. Same for seat angle. This is more important when the fork gets longer as the geo change will be greater.
Ive got a regular Honzo DL and its surprisngly capable of DH stuff, 140mm fork needs a bot more damping than on my 160mm enduro bike but other than that there snit much it cant handle-compared to the full suss, apart from big drops, chunky tyres on the back help
It is more tiring, your legs feel it after a few runs! But it makes you think a bit more about lines and pumping the trail
Kona Honzo ESD looks a ton of fun, but they aint cheap, even second hand
My Hello Dave is great for Scottish enduro trails, mines 3 years old and still going strong.
It's not proper DH but I ride my Solaris at the Golfie a lot.
It's not as fast as my Rocket (fastest down, slowest up) or my Orange Five (middling down and up) but the downs are mostly all doable and rides to the top the best.
For a proper DH I'd take the Rocket, brilliant at Fort Bill for instance, but I don't race DH and also have the luxury of being able to have many bikes