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First paragraph confirmed moaning ****ism so stopped after that.
😀
The climbing link is intresting
I managed to get into a Forum debate about the Sheffield University freshers meet. I won't bore you with all the details but some people were so keen to preserve the rock that they said no one had the right to be taught to climb outside. IMHO some rock climbers are to protective of certain areas for their own use.
I think mountain biking is changing and that is putting pressure on some areas. It will need lots of local diplomacy to keep things open but even in the UK we are hardly out of space
I managed to get into a Forum debate about the Sheffield University freshers meet. I won’t bore you with all the details but some people were so keen to preserve the rock that they said no one had the right to be taught to climb outside. IMHO some rock climbers are to protective of certain areas for their own use.
There's a related debate about climbing walls and how bad they are because they just encourage folk to then climb real rock.
There have also been knock-on effects in other things - campervans would be a good example. A few folk parking "wild", even having a wee fire, and that's OK. However, scale that up until everyone is doing it and it becomes unsustainable. You then have the situation where previous parking spots are made inaccessible, more legislation is introduced and then folk are restricted to official camp sites. I'm not saying the same will happen with mountain biking, but it's certainly one possible outcome.
Its pretty normal when the area an activity happens in starts to be limited or overcrowded.
You see it in places like Woburn for example. Years ago you could ride all over it and it was full of great lines. This and social media made it attractive, it got too busy, the landowner got upset. Now you are just meant to ride on the authorised trail.
Same happened with Green Lane motorcycling. In the early 90's you could ride without meeting anyone. A few idiots annoyed some other idiots and the councils basically closed Byways / BOATS and such like. What is left is overcrowded and gets eroded. The sport has basically died.
I worry that if we shout for access to ride FP we will be herded into just bits that are sanctioned. Like trail centres. I think its better to just leave it as it is. Ride cheeky, but follow the cheeky rules.
When one area gets over crowded I just move on and find some other spot. Things change over time.
I feel I have a slightly different view to most posters. I think there has been a real change in MTB culture.
For me there seems to be less friendliness, thoughtfulness and consideration out on the trails.
We need more people heeding Rule No’1.
On that point I wouldn’t disagree. But to be fair people must just be more friendly in Yorkshire. I’ve never had an argument with a dog walker, ebiker, landowner, or rambler. Mostly I just get people saying hello and commenting on the weather 😂
For me there seems to be less friendliness, thoughtfulness and consideration out on the trails.
I don't see this "out" on the trails. Alost every cyclist, walker, runner, whatever I meet when in the wilds is friendly and considerate. We're all just folk doing stuff outdoors and that's great. It's possibly different in and around busy trail centres, but I don't frequent those so I can't really judge.
I find friendliness out on the trails varies a lot depending on where you go. I find Forest of Dean much friendlier than Surrey Hills, for example.
but it’s certainly one possible outcome.
this is just a variation of the same argument that gets trotted out time and again.
“They” will ban us from cycling in the countryside.
I’ve heard it from day one of mountain biking and I’ve been this for more than 20 years now. It hasn’t happened and I doubt it ever will
I think climbing is in a very odd state. There is an explosion of interest in Bouldering and sport climbing. The Peak gritstone is still popular but i got a sense that trad was on decline to the point where we'll start loosing routes back to nature
I think tlr is right, the wider community aren't too fussed.
The only thing that annoys me in litter, but that's aesthetics for you.
I think the difficulties come in when some people see it as a culture and some as a pass time.
I'm in the latter camp - I ride bikes, drive cars, read Sci fi, but I wouldn't identify myself as a cyclist, motorist, nerd. They are just things I do.
The moment I opened the article and saw the name I knew what was coming. He’s very well known at the MTBR forums, where he frequently comes up as a perfectly insufferable character.
The guy has a remarkable career, but instead of inspiring he prefers to non stop criticise everyone who’s not in the exact same page as him and often with a good deal of nonsense.
Was just scrolling through to post similar. He takes nice photos and presumably builds a good wheel but many of his posts really don't come across well. Not that he doesn't raise a few good points. I can only imagine his blood pressure seeing Peaslake on a Sunday.
highlandman sums it up nicely.
Go mad as you like on purpose built mtb trails, but elsewhere eg natural trails: Don’t hurt the dirt.
Well you can't really wreck a lot of the Peaks. Last time I was up there I saw dirt bikes, horses mountain bikes and walkers all at the same time. The trails were worn and obvious. Round here all the tracks are grass, if you can find them: in fact folks riding my events started complaining there was too much grass. Bloody trail centres.....
Double-edged sword, isn't it. All the 'newbies*' who started or frequent trail centres now but since lockdown, they can't get to them as frequently. So they ride local and assume the local natural stuff is the same, so end up riding the same way they do at trail centres, but with more traffic locally (foot and bike) it doesn't work as well.
The riders from yesteryear probably have more awareness of the way they ride as back then, 1 stupid move could get everything blocked. Nowadays, as things have 'progressed', there are plenty riders who don't have any concerns and just ride as hard/rough as they can.
Each to their own, I really hate seeing it but no-one listens so I just go ride elsewhere or make sure I'm there when it is very quiet so I don't see anything that will distract me from my ride.
I'm a sociable chap, but I've not moved with the times regarding ripping up the ground for no real reason, so I'm happy to be riding on my own.
Riding has evolved but I'm not sure all of has been an improvement as in some cases we appear to have regressed rather than progressed.
More people riding bikes is brilliant, if less of them would skid and rip the ground up, that would be even better - but that is just my opinion, which many do disagree with.
* Isn't just new riders but does tend to be those who spend more time at trail centres than riding natural trails in the hills - so I'm aware that I'm making a sweeping generalisation there.
“They” will ban us from cycling in the countryside.
I’ve heard it from day one of mountain biking and I’ve been this for more than 20 years now. It hasn’t happened and I doubt it ever will
This forum regularly has posts about bits of forest where riding is being stopped, despite it having been going on "low key" for years.
For me there seems to be less friendliness, thoughtfulness and consideration out on the trails.
Buy a road bike then come back to that statement in 6 months.
I genuinely do not see that. Quite the opposite. Surprising friendliness etc.
It usually takes twice as long as it could to get round Glentress due to everyone wanting to chat.
It's a fair enough article but hardly a revelation. I do share his and @highlandmans concerns about damage to an already fragile environment. That said the response to this should be to educate people not to berate people. It does remind me of the whole dirty campers fiasco earlier this year. Open minds and patience are needed on both sidess
Haven't read the linked article but the conversation resonates with me a bit.
Since our local woods lost its official FE MTB status this time last year, and possibly with the lockdown increases in both cycling and riding local, we've seen a big increase in digging/building in our little woodland. This seems to mirror what I'm hearing from other FE sites too.
I don't have a problem with that per se (we've always dug in the woods), but the newer builders are working closer to other users and busy areas, and are tending to build more 'jibby' one-off features rather than coherent trails. This is changing the feel of our local trails, and I get how some riders might see this as threatening or 'wrong' - especially in our new 'hate the other' cultural climate...
Without getting all preachy, I think the only to deal with a shift in culture like this is to assimilate it, learn from it, and educate. We've brought these new rider/builders into our local circle of builders and will take it from there. Pointless railing against it when fundamentally we all want the same thing.
Funny. Round my way I’d say that mountain biking *is* the new golf.
This doesn’t reflect my interpretation of the sport at all. It’s always been a fringe thing. Look at films like Mud Cows, Sprung and New World Didorder from back in what this chap would probably call “The Day”. The only difference now is that we can go a lot faster, uplifts are a thing, and some people care about Strava.
I think there has always been (at least) two tendencies in mountainbiking. those for whom the bike is a tool to get out and about - just we like to do it offroad. Call it the roughstuff tendency. Then there is those who take their inspiration from the repack riders and the red bull guys more recently. To them its all about speed and features. Call them the repack tendency? or the first lot ride landrover equivalents and the second lot rally cars?
When MTBing first took off in the uk what 30 odd years ago many of us came to it from roughstuff and from hillwalking. We have a different ethos to those for whom its all about the thrill of the ride. Over the years the first group have made up a smaller and smaller % of total MTBers hence the change in attitudes.
I cannot understand the wish to ride trail centres all the time - I find them dull and I thing trail digging is vandalism. Other viewpoints are available. I far prefer to ride in the hills or just wander around on my bike.
I do think we may be reaching a tipping point tho as happened with camper vans last summer in that trail digging and riding flat out will become more and more of an issue with non riders
Ha, if anything I’d argue the complete opposite. When I started riding, the vibe in MBUK was about mucking around in the woods, punk rock and maybe the odd hint about smoking a joint. It was very much trying to be counter-cultural and edgy.
Now it seems like it’s a bit serious and boring. There are loads of older folk who perhaps grew up with MTB in the 1990s and are now in their sixties. Nothing wrong with that but I would rather a new edgier generation came behind me so I could at least feel a semblance that I’m involved in an interesting sport.
(Anyone that drops litter can GTFO though)
When did you start riding superficial? Maybe its also a regional thing?
Ah it's the same old story I've heard a thousand times. The Mountain Bike element is a red herring and the RedBull, Diesel Duallies and whatever else a dog whistle.
Some people like to spend some time alone, I get that, I do too, and it's horrible when other people 'spoil' it by existing in the same space. Really the writer wants to scream "THIS IS MY SPECIAL PLACE THAT I GO TO BE AWAY FROM ALL YOU 'OTHER PEOPLE' GO AWAY, THIS IS MINE", but he knows he doesn't own it, and trying to lay claim to it makes him the arsehole so he finds a load of stereotypical ways to make them bad people.
“There are loads of older folk who perhaps grew up with MTB in the 1990s and are now in their sixties.”
Are you a time traveller?! 😉 I’m part of the generation that grew up with MTBing - we all rode BMXs and then MTBs became common in the mid-late ‘80s. In 1988 it felt like every other 10 year old I knew got a mountain bike for their birthday or Christmas!
Back to the climbing comparison (and no I don't think Everest BC is relevant to the UK), the biggest crime is chipping of holds and bolting areas which have been designated as trad. If a climber is caught chipping a hold or bolting a sensitive area they'd be ostracised very quickly, and the bolts removed and where possible the chipped holds repaired or filled in. I wonder what would happen if MTBers took the same approach to trail digging in sensitive areas? Instead of everyone riding a trail that had been dug through an ancient or sensitive woodland, damaging the flora and fauna, should it instead be dismantled and the area returned to its natural state?
There are lots of places here in Calderdale where this might apply. Mrs Daz is part of the local badger protection group and recently dismantled a trail which cut through an active badger sett and had blocked some of the holes. It's pretty embarrassing that she had to do that because mountain bikers can't exercise self-regulation and common sense, or are ignorant of the issues relating to protecting the envrionment.
I don't think it's as dire as that article make out, yes but there's a definite (and growing?) element of high-fiving #vanlife, new golfers...
The thing is, such people have always been part of MTBing, and most objections to them (probably mine included) are simply personal. They represent the aspirational, acquisitive, consumer culture version of mountain biking.
But they do have every right to ride bikes in the same woods and on the same trails as everyone else. And TBH cycling in general is better off having them. They add to the numbers and therefore form part of the arguments for improving access, plus they swell the market for cycling kit too meaning certain companies and products that perhaps wouldn't be viable are kept going...
Plus when they jack it in for their next Fad there's cheaper toys for us paupers to buy 2nd hand...
This forum regularly has posts about bits of forest where riding is being stopped
Sure, I’m not saying that doesn’t happen, more the “sky falling in” notion of primary legislation to make it illegal. Besides which if you added up all those bits of land it’s probably no more than 50 acres or so.
I like TJs Land Rover/ rally car analogy and how some folk approach MTB. There’s lots of “trails” I know that don’t link to anything, they’re just a line down a hillside, they get “sessioned” and then move onto the next, there’s less exploration or riding around in a big circle, more going from one technical challenge to the next. Same but different. As long as everyone’s respectful, it’s no worries
There’s very much a fashion element to the riding. Unfortunately, the last couple of years the fad has been ‘loam’ with everyone and their cousin feeling the need to make a fresh line of soggy corners straight down a hillside so they can make a sick YouTube video with 24 views.
In general, bikes are better (and cheaper) than ever, and there are more places to ride. Some people just like being miserable and feel the need to share it with others.
Buy a road bike then come back to that statement in 6 months.
Another one...? I used to do a fair few local’ish sportives and training rides... Still have a road bike.
My view is based on my 30+ years of mountain-biking, so not exactly a short period to make an assessment.
I think there has always been (at least) two tendencies in mountainbiking. those for whom the bike is a tool to get out and about – just we like to do it offroad. Call it the roughstuff tendency. Then there is those who take their inspiration from the repack riders
For me, I have a foot in both camps. The biggest thrill for me in MTB is finding a new trail though!
I think one of my favourite things to do on a bike is to go exploring somewhere for interesting natural trails. My last good stint of that was on holiday in Mallorca - peering at maps and satellite images to get some ideas and then going for a pedal looking for paths or tracks that ascend steeply, spotting them, getting to the top (pushing/carrying often required) and then attempting to ride back down. It’s a nice mix of quasi-rambling with no pressure to get anywhere or cover distance and then the challenge of riding stuff that’s pretty tech for me.
I think one of my favourite things to do on a bike is to go exploring somewhere for interesting natural trails. My last good stint of that was on holiday in Mallorca – peering at maps and satellite images to get some ideas and then going for a pedal looking for paths or tracks that ascend steeply, spotting them, getting to the top (pushing/carrying often required) and then attempting to ride back down. It’s a nice mix of quasi-rambling with no pressure to get anywhere or cover distance and then the challenge of riding stuff that’s pretty tech for me.
Very much this!
Current ‘discussion’ on an MTB owners page on FB is around what the best speaker is for attaching to your bike when out for a ride. Reckon only about 70/30 split of people have the correct answer, which I think is a reflection of modern attitudes, and not all that good...
“Current ‘discussion’ on an MTB owners page on FB is around what the best speaker is for attaching to your bike when out for a ride.”
As a professional (and moderately acclaimed) loudspeaker designer, I’m 100% certain that the answer is “whichever speaker is either so heavy the bike is unable to move or so quiet that no-one can hear it”...
when a lot of us were riding 'back in the day' you could ride surrey hills for example and only come across a couple of riders. on any given weekend now the place is rammed with people coming down trails like its a conveyor belt.
now this in itself isnt necessarily a bad thing. the problem i think we have is the sheer numbers taking their cues from professional riders, or just other riders, posting videos skidding around the trails and/or just cutting things down/building stuff in the hope of getting maximum 'likes'.
years ago it didnt matter so much because the impact of such small number misusing trails wasnt that noticeable. these days, and its often just sheer volume of people, landowners are quickly becoming aware of issues and access is becoming a real concern.
to a certain extent i agree with some of the article and this can be borne out by the number of trails we have lost locally this year since the huge boom in numbers.
a little education would certainly help. im all for people enjoying bikes, they have given so much to me, but if things continue on as they are i fear we will loose more and more access over the coming years.
Okay I'm going to be that person.
This is exactly the problem I see with e-bikes. They allow more people to go further than they normally would or ride trails that would otherwise be left alone. Thus previously lightly used trails see more traffic, more wear and more abuse. They're not the whole story but part of it.
I saw an Instagram post from an ex-pro with a picture of an absolute quagmire, apparently they got there by normal means, sacked it off and came back to blast along it with their e-bike. Good going, that's going to help. All the likes. What chance do you have?
Looking away from the ones with sponsors to appease, it's not a hobby for these people, it's just a lifestyle that happens to be supported with a bike (or five), LWB Sprinter with a tiled and fitted kitchen (#vanlife) and an online persona. It's nothing more than unsustainable, vapid ego stroking and it's the shit people see that's going to hurt those that actually stop and give a damn about our environment and hobby.
I should probably follow that up with a disclaimer to say there is nothing inherently bad about e-bikes or posting stuff on Instagram. My issue is with the unsustainability and poor behaviour that isn't called out often enough.
Yes, trails are there for everyone but that means we should do our damnest to make sure they stay that way. As the old saying goes - take memories, leave footprints.
I think there’s a real excess of generalisation and a lack of context when moaning about “erosion” as it relates to MTBing. Cutting a new line down a peat moor or chopping certain trees in an ancient woodland is terrible. But doing the same in a conifer plantation has near zero ecological impact.
People complain about erosion on our local trails from too many riders on them once it’s wet. But when a tree falls across a trail and closes it for good, that trail is rapidly reclaimed by nature. These are deciduous woods that are only a few hundred years old. We do have a problem when kids start digging in certain spots because in these youngish woods there are archaeological features thousands of years old (and nothing to denote their presence unless you carefully inspect an OS map).
I think there’s a real excess of generalisation and a lack of context when moaning about “erosion” as it relates to MTBing. Cutting a new line down a peat moor or chopping certain trees in an ancient woodland is terrible. But doing the same in a conifer plantation has near zero ecological impact.
Context certainly matters. There are trails in the conifer plantations near me where the damage done by walkers/MTBers/horses is insignificant next to the devastation wrought by logging vehicles. Some of the worst damage I see on public bridleways is caused by illegal use of motorised vehicles (dirt bikes, quad bikes, SUVs) - the bridleway into Hamsterley over Doctors Gate being a good example. I don’t see banning of bike access being the eventual outcome, more likely increased route sanitisation (think of what has happened to routes like the one over Loughrigg Fell, or parts of the Pennine Way).
there are trails in the conifer plantations near me where the damage done by walkers/MTBers/horses is insignificant next to the devastation wrought by logging vehicles.
with landowners frequently complaining about the erosion caused by bike trails in the years just before an area is clear felled....
unfortunately my local jump spot, which isnt technically legal but has been tolerated for years now, has had signs erected by the council completely banning riding and the diggers are moving in to flatten it. this is entirely due to the huge numbers of people riding there who then clashed with the increased numbers of walkers who didnt appreciate the loud music and pot smoking, as well entire trees being dug up and huge holes left all over the place, including across the bridleway in order to build a blind jump across it.
my expectation is that once the shopping centers open again most of the new riders will go back to doing what they used to do. mountain biking for these people will just have been a moment in time, 'that summer of 2020' its frustrating that the effects will be longer term for the rest of us.
with landowners frequently complaining about the erosion caused by bike trails in the years just before an area is clear felled….
the thing is though that its someone elses land, there is a whole separate ethics issue around that, but its up to them what they do with it and if they perceive its being mistreated they are going to close access to it. a lot of the time from what i can tell its down to liability, no surprise that the trails ive seen closed over the last few months have been the ones where people have been building the biggest features on, as well as the ones i have seen the most ambulances parked at the top of. until last summer i had never seen an ambulance at the top of my local trails or paramedics stretchering people out.
The article author looks at mountain biking in a very selective way from what I read. He's picking on what he sees as "less knowledgeable" riders accessing "his environment" and doing it "wrong", basically.
I do wonder how he would fair in other parts of the mountain biking world, which he ignores. Would he be completely embarrassed riding in a major bike park, for example when he waits just above a feature or stops on a blind landing, because that's what he would do on his trails? Or at an indoor park where he doesn't understand the etiquette but feels everyone should get out of his way? It wouldn't be nice for him to run into another version of himself in those environments I reckon.
Looking at some local (online) groups, the issue seems to be that they see every riding location as a bike park and whilst that can cause trouble, I reckon they probably understand the "rules" of bike parks quite well. They are just out of context and - like the article author - apparently pretty clueless when they are trying to ride bikes (the only way they know how) in other locations. I doubt they'd enjoy riding the way that guy wants them too - they'd probably rather pay to access instead.
I saw an Instagram post from an ex-pro with a picture of an absolute quagmire, apparently they got there by normal means, sacked it off and came back to blast along it with their e-bike. Good going, that’s going to help.
Just playing devil's advocate, but what actual harm is there in riding trails which are an "absolute quagmire"?
The slop will just part and then subside again. When we (eventually) get a dry spell, there will likely be no detectable damage.
What is potentially harmful is riding off the trail to avoid the slop, especially ribboning out trails on open hillsides. But walkers are often worse for that anyway.