[Closed] Improving signage along the canals and waterways for cyclists

If you think you could be of assistance, we would love to hear from you!!

Maybe put your company name, so we know who 'we' are?

Although, it's nice to see someone take so much pride in their industry that they capitalise it 8)

Signs asking for fisherists not to block the path with their poles/equipment

Signs asking walkers/runners to turn down their iPod/take one ear bud out so they can hear riders shouting "EXCUSE ME" right behind them.

Signs telling users who are approaching each other to keep left

Dog walkers not to obstruct the path with dog lead

Best thing we could do with street furniture is reduce it.

Rachel

Best thing we could do with street furniture is reduce it.

Agreed. The Government have used them for far too long to mess with our minds...

[img] [/img]

There's a sign in King's Lynn actually telling people to be careful when they cross the road. Err - like it would make any difference to behaviour???

Err - like it would make any difference to behaviour???

Plus we need natural selection to work it's magic more than normal in the far reaches of East Anglia...

Hi lara,

I assume you've spoken to the good people at Sustrans who have a lot of experience in producing signs for cyclists along their National Cycle Network?

They actually have professional advice and consultancy available:
http://www.sustrans.org.uk/our-services/infrastructure/route-design-resources/advice-and-support

jamie, that guy must be aright nutter to be making videos like that!

As a regular user of a canal towpath I personally would find the following signs very useful.

1. All dogs to be kept on a tight lead at all times

2. Keep left

3. Ring twice, pass nice

I think this would solve nearly every dispute I've had on the towpath in the last few years.

The majority of issues arrise from people not willing to share the path with other users. Be that joggers, dog walkers or cyclists. Infact you could replace them all with one sign that says "dont be a dick" ?

I assume you've spoken to the good people at Sustrans who have a lot of experience in producing signs for cyclists along their National Cycle Network?

We have lots of 'Cyclists Dismount' and 'No Cylcling' signs along our local Sustrans route (I ride on it every day to work). Does make you wonder.....

I doubt they were put there by Sustrans footflaps

3. Ring twice, pass nice

I like that. You're hired!

How about a "Warning: Belligerent Anglers ahead." sign, the image used could be a bike bunny hopping fishing poles laid across the bank/towpath.

😉

I doubt they were put there by Sustrans footflaps

Possibly not, but maybe they should have picked a route you are allowed to cycle on as a Sustran route. Just a thought like....

S'funny isn't it... belligerent anglers are who make it unpleasant to canoe in British rivers as well, especially in the huntin' shootin' fishin' areas like the Ribble Valley.

Maybe it's not a cycling route? Not all Sustrans routes are for cyclists.

Or possibly it is a cycling route but there are still old "No Cycling" signs on it that Sustrans are trying to persuade the council to remove?

Councils aren't exactly quick - we're still waiting for them to get round to replacing a fallen signpost on my local route which we reported in August 2013.

I'd suggest you speak to your local Sustrans person - if you give me the route and location I can probably find out who you need to speak to.

"MULTI-USE TRACK, PLEASE BE COURTEOUS TO OTHERS" at every entry point, with pictures of cyclists, fisherists, dog-walkerists etc might not be a bad idea. Most common problem I've encountered is the attitudes of some people with a sense of entitlement over a different demographic to their own.

Well, actually that's the second biggest problem, the biggest is having to run the dogshit gauntlet every time you pass through the ironically named 'areas of civilisation'. But I doubt that more signs telling people to bag their crap and stop hanging it in trees for the dog poo fairy is going to make much difference to people who don't actually give a sod one way or the other in the first place.

+1 for "Don't be a dick"

If you have anything to do with the gates, those awful cycle gates that are not quite wide enough to get your handlebars through so you have to do a little shimmy and fall through the other side, them, change them, they're awful.

EDIT: these ones:
[img] [/img]

Warning - blokes ahead who hate their wives and like to drink 9% lager and wave 30ft long poles.

Horse riders - please don't tell me that your horse will kick me to death or ask me "are you in a bloody race?" when I'm tootling 25 yards behind you and your horse (this happened on my off-road commute last Friday.

Dog walkers - please reel your dog in from 16 feet as the lead represents a hazard to other tow path users.

those awful cycle gates that are not quite wide enough to get your handlebars through

Yep, always fun trying to get a double child trailer through them. Or a recumbent. Or an accessibility bike.

I doubt they were put there by Sustrans footflaps

NCN routes should be very easy to follow and no maps needed IMHO. For routes crossing metalled roads would [url= ]paint trails[/url] make sense?

Please no more street furniture there is far too much every where these days.

😈

those awful cycle gates that are not quite wide enough to get your handlebars through

Besides that's not a proper A frame gate, proper A frames - like the ones near us - have "cut throughs" around the side for the rogue MXers (who presumably these are supposed to stop)

So they don't stop illegal offroading and they are a PITA for legit cyclists, please get rid of them.

D0NK: speak to your local Sustrans folk about it - they always welcome feedback on routes as signage can be tricky to get right.

Better still, volunteer and help do something about it yourself 😀

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/volunteer

For routes crossing metalled roads would paint trails make sense?

Yep! But Sustrans don't own the road (and mostly don't even own the cycle routes) so they'd need to persuade the local authority to add non-standard unapproved road markings to a public road - which is a tall order.

I never knew there was so much hatred and stereotyping of fisherman. I love this cretinous place.
Do you need a sign on a canal tow path? As long as you know where each direction takes you what more can you need to know?

Going to go out on a limb, and guess Pik n Mix is a keen angler.

How ever did you deduce that? 😉

Possibly not, but maybe they should have picked a route you are allowed to cycle on as a Sustran route. Just a thought like...

Never really had any problems with fishermen on the canals near me, TBF. They seem to largely ignore anything that isn't fishy. Occasionally you'll get one who's laid all their equipment across the path I suppose, but they're few and far between and it's no great hardship to give them a moment to shift it.

Always struck me as an odd hobby, sitting staring silently into space for hours on end on the offchance that you might get to kill a fish at some point, but each to their own I suppose.

Killing fish? Are you polish?

Again, get rid of these things. They can totally nause up a good ride. Is the problem of kids on motorbikes that great/heinous that it requires such drastic/expensive solution?

[img] [/img]

Again, get rid of these things. They can totally nause up a good ride. Is the problem of kids on motorbikes that great/heinous that it requires such drastic/expensive solution?

Hampton represent!

They can totally nause up a good ride

Really?? You have a great ride on a dull wide track and having to stop every so often ruins it for you 😯

I must be very lucky living where I do if thats your idea of a good ride.

Id like to know of one where you aren't, Sustrans means [b]Sus[/b]tainable [b]Trans[/b]port after all.

Yep and Sustainable Transport includes walking.

The National [i]Cycle[/i] Network is obviously for bikes, but Sustrans also do work with providing safe walking routes to schools etc.

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/change-your-travel/children-and-families/walking-kids

I think we may need to get some Consultants in to determine the quantity of sand in FunkyDunc's vagina.

Notification about approaching the more "cultural" parts would be nice, ie warning: chibbings possible on summer weekends! 😆

You could do with a 'Caution! Scrotes Loitering with Intent' for every canal towpath around Manchester. With an illustration of a Nike Air-clad hoody carrying a can of Fosters

Really?? You have a great ride on a dull wide track and having to stop every so often ruins it for you

I must be very lucky living where I do if thats your idea of a good ride.

Hey, we're not all totally awesome downhill MTB'ers. For me it's about the distance/getting lost etc...

Thanks Graham, I was vaguely aware of those, I've just not been made aware of one anywhere locally, all the emphasis is getting kids out of cars, and safely onto bikes, as the pedestrian side of things is more than adequate.
It's stopping the kids on my route to work from just stepping off the footpath into the cycle lane that runs alongside the main road that's proving tricky...

'don't fall on the wet side'

Killing fish? Are you polish?

I'm vegetarian, so the whys and wherefores of fishing isn't a great area of expertise for me. I assumed, evidently naively, that the whole raison d'etre of dragging fish out of the water was to have something fishy for tea. If that's not the case then feel free to mentally amend "killing fish" to read "maiming fish" instead in my previous post.

"Caution: Geese With No Sense of Personal Space"

Would be useful for the bit by shipley where a goose jumped up on my mate's pack and "humped" his head.

If Lara doesn't make a sign for that then Jamie has to.

Come on photoshop monkey dance for me 😡

You could do with a 'Caution! Scrotes Loitering with Intent' for [s]every canal towpath[/s] around Manchester.

 

Would be useful for the bit by shipley where a goose jumped up on my mate's pack and "humped" his head.

It was just having a gander.

If that's not the case then feel free to mentally amend "killing fish" to read "maiming fish" instead in my previous post.

I see your point.

I have to say the Sustrans route near me is a joke it's apparently a "national cycle route". In reality it's a 2ft wide piece of crumbling potholed tarmac which imo is a poor footpath at best but it's been adopted none the less, and has had a few 3 inch blue stickers stick to any existing street furniture that'll take a sticker. The route then diverts all round the houses on an on road route (no cycle route markings) cars parked everywhere loads of junctions and driveways when there is an ideal direct and wide off road route which should be a cycle route and isn't. I know which bits I use.

ok back to signage

[b]needs to be consistent [/b]- maintain route names, try to keep signs in consistent positions that tell someone approaching the sign the direction to go in (obvious but many signs on trails just tell you the name of the trail)
[b]needs to be timely [/b]- ie regular, 2km off route and back is a lot of time on a bike, signs confirming the trail (and direction) are useful
[b]needs directionality[/b] - ok so I'm the Leeds-Liverpool canal trail, am I heading towards Leeds or Liverpool?
[b]needs to refer to destinations [/b]- trail names/numbers are useful but places are where people go to and recognise
[b]provide maps[/b] - not everywhere but at key access points / junctions so people can work out what signage need to look for
[b]signpost utilities[/b] - shops/toilets/cafes/picnic spots
[b]line mark trails[/b] - through car parks/complex junctions

local council here (suburban Melbourne, Au) has been working on this issue and they need to I can assure you

[url= https://www.knox.vic.gov.au/Files/Transport/2013_Knox_and_Boroondara_Presentation_-_Bicycle_Wayfinding.pdf ]Boroodara and Knox councils look at how to sign cycle trails[/url]

There does seem to be some bizarre NCN stuff around. I guess it's a fairly complex mix of ROW permissions, council bureaucracy, trying to stay away from roads [i]at all[/i] and "main roads" in particular, NCN 55 goes through monton and takes a fairly convoluted route through residential streets and then [url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=monton&ll=53.492858,-2.351375&spn=0.008247,0.019033&sll=53.490969,-2.346482&sspn=0.008247,0.019033&t=m&radius=0.47&hq=monton&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.492941,-2.351498&panoid=m25XzkTjsVoiXD4sCJIqTQ&cbp=12,292.62,,0,9.12 ]you're told to dismount[/url] presumably coz no one would let them build a bike lane [url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=monton&ll=53.493063,-2.351933&spn=0.008247,0.019033&sll=53.490969,-2.346482&sspn=0.008247,0.019033&t=m&radius=0.47&hq=monton&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.493147,-2.351713&panoid=QO6N43d7ZtVmeGsVpI0U4Q&cbp=12,274.1,,0,25.78 ]across this[/url].

I think Sustrans have my sympathy, they probably work hard at a very difficult job, given that not many other people (seemingly very few in road planning/council departments) give a shit about cycling. So what on the surface looks bloody stupid could actually be the best of a bad job. It's just a shame that so many NCN and other traffic free cycle routes just seem to end abruptly or go a bit weird and you have to fend for yourself. Most regular riders will dip in and out of NCN and official cycle routes mixed with road, cheek or just [url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=salford&hl=en&ll=53.480142,-2.266252&spn=0.008249,0.019033&sll=53.493152,-2.351718&sspn=0.008298,0.019033&hnear=Salford,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.480187,-2.266187&panoid=9nUsUgBu65om-fbKXqhTdw&cbp=12,119.23,,1,6.94 ]none conventional[/url] routes, newbies are stuffed tho.

some good stuff antigee. what do we think about signed ETA times? useful or not? there's a few on leeds liverpool canal near haigh hall, times were definitely aimed at the slow and steady leisure riders, I was undecided on whether distances might have been more useful.

cheers Donk

what do we think about signed ETA times?

think average speeds vary too much ( school hols so rode to café with my daughter this pm and round trip was 3x what I would take and I'm slow - spread is huge) regular and consistent distance signing should work once people are on a trail and think that confirmation you are actually heading in right direction is key to being happy - suggested timings might be best on publicity material for trails

There is (or at least used to be) a good junction on the Trans Pennine Trail somewhere near Barnsley. Two trails intersect, more or less at right angles. Finger post with four fingers, all labelled Trans Pennine Trail. Useless.

Each route needs a distinct name, or none. Trans-Pennine is a shambles, bits crop up at random, which might or might not connect to other bits. Signage which only gives you distance or direction to a tiny village you've never heard of, won't help you pick the correct route from a junction.

Back to Canals and Rivers Trust. How about a website and mapping that tells us what the access is along the bank/towpath. Some banks are private or otherwise have no right of way, some have access but no actual path, some an unmade track, some gravel, some tarmac. I assume the trust already has the info on what's where, but short of going out and riding it, it's guesswork until you come to a barrier and need a long detour or a bit of cheek. I quite like finding out with a bit of exploring, but finding out in advance would encourage a lot more use. Families don't want to have to be diverted on to the roads(even quiet ones) when out for a stress free bimble along the towpath.

I hope its not too much of a thread hijack, but the CRT are currently running a 'Shared Towpaths' [url= http://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/consultations/current-consultations ]consultation[/url], including a new proposed Towpath code. There is also a short survey half way down the page.

BTW those metal structures are called [url= http://www.centrewire.com/motorbike.htm ]Motorbike inhibitors[/url], nominally to stop motorbikes, with the side-effects of annoying everyone else at the same time.

MLC
http://www.cyclestreets.net/
http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ncn/map
have some info,cycle streets journey planner is good but local knowledge will obviously be better, no surface type listing tho, thought there was another site that did that...hmm

I think Sustrans have my sympathy... So what on the surface looks bloody stupid could actually be the best of a bad job.

Yeah I think you pretty much nailed it there. Sustrans are good people in my experience, but the nature of what they do and the general attitude to cycling in this country means they have to be very pragmatic with what they do.

They often accept compromises on the grounds that [i]any cycle route is better than no route at all[/i] and once demand and popularity is demonstrated then it is easier to get the council to concede that yeah, maybe the route should go through that other bit after all.

So they are constantly making deals with the devil - which more militant cycling advocates strongly dislike - but that's why Sustrans actually manage to deliver [i]something[/i] while other groups sit and talk about a perfect cycling utopia that is along way off.

FWIW, I support my local cycle campaign for the more militant localised approach, Sustrans for the pragmatic hands-on approach, and CTC for the national political approach. I think we need all three.

what do we think about signed ETA times?

Pretty much exactly what antigee said. Too variable. Distances are good though.

no surface type listing tho, thought there was another site that did that...hmm

CycleStreets uses OpenCycleMap data which does have surface types recorded for some of the paths. Can't remember if the CycleStreets route finder takes this into account or not. I think it was planned but may not be implemented yet.