[Closed] Im still fuming..Is it just me or are rodies a breed apart...arrogant??

You see this is where internet bickering is rubbish - what you have said there could be perfectly reasonable or complete bollox - you don't know as you were not there and don't know the road and neither do I. Facts remain that I'm struggling to imagine a 4 mile bit of quiet back road without a layby, little road junction or some such which a group could not roll through to let other traffic through if it chose. I don't buy the its hard to do that as a group nonsense - I've done more group ride miles than had hot dinners and if that is the case the group should be having a word with itself about comms and groups leadership.

See my last post - it is ok to pull over and stop when in a group - you are not in the tdf! I have done it with groups thousands of times. Not one of those times was I risking anything (except a strava time!).

Just to double check your tolerance levels - you roll up behind a bunch of walkers on a bridleway on your mtb, they turn and see you there then carry on plodding along as they were. You get off and walk too or do a bit of track standing and slow rolling.

and if your on a footpath, game over, you shouldn't be there and it has been known for the point to be made.
Bridleway, game over. They might be nice, but having seen how some riders behave why be considerate when so many mtbers aren't?

Now if we want a more correct comparison walkers on a bramble lined path, they can't really move aside because of the thorns.

If the walkers don't want to move your problem, the law is quite clear on this. You don't have any rights to expect them to move out the way.

20mins gone - all sweetness and light with you?

20mins... club cyclists at 20mph, how many miles would that be, 7miles?

So 20mins is crap then,

By the way, I fully expect cycling individuals and groups to slow down and be prepared to stop, just the same as any road users. When they whizz through my village they will be left in no doubt about my ideas on that front if I'm walking along! Everyone needs to be able to stop in the road that they can see at any one moment - if another road user is in the same space, adjustments must be made.

Others road users do not want to be playing our cycling for fun, game.

and i don't want other road users endangering my life when i am going about my lawful actions.

you dont have to get out of the way to let someone past

I always do. If there is a clear passing opportunity for someone tailing me I slow and move to the left edge to help with their visibility. And I always leave a decent gap in front for drivers to move into. I was taught this. Why do anything else?

And I also do this when riding my bike.

Considering the profusion of laziness and unnecessary car journeys, I think it is rather a moot point to compare a cyclist's "unnecessary" use of the road and a car driver's "essential" journey.

Considering the profusion of laziness and unnecessary car journeys, I think it is rather a moot point to compare a cyclist's "unnecessary" use of the road and a car driver's "essential" journey [b]To ride [u]HIS[/u] Bike[/b]

but what if you overtake the cyclist and pull in too fast, reducing his 2 second minimum braking distance ???

should he have noticed that you were overtaking and slowed down appropriately to maintain that gap ?

Fascinating - if trolling was an Olympic sport surely there are some contenders for a gold here? 😆

Turner Guy - that exact thing has happened to me, with a bloody milkman. I was riding way way out to stop him too - and he still came by into a blind, narrow bit of road and promptly slammed on the brakes. By the time I stopped I was alongside him (nowhere else to go) - and explaining in [i]very[/i] "clear" terms the error of his ways!

Turner Guy that happened to me, riding on a straight road going in to a long left hand corner, car decides to overtake our line or riders with me on the front then pulls in to avoid cars coming the other way and takes me out with their mirror, could have been really really bad, I was lucky to get away with cuts and bruises.

I got stuck behind some for 2 miles on the way home from the Olympic road race on Sunday- a group of about 8. It was on a twisty road, quite narrow with big hedges so I behaved myself.

However, every time the road got wide enough for me to pass them they started weaving over the road like buggery- swinging 3 or 4 feet a time. Sometimes to avoid things but, quite often, to avoid each other. It was a terrible show of group riding, and there will be a lot of it about in the less hilly parts of the country while TdF/Olympic fever goes about.

So long as everyone considers their actions we'll all be OK- slowing down and moving in to the kerb a bit on a safe bit of road to let drivers pass as quickly as possible, waiting patiently in the twisties. A considerate rider will make opportunities for drivers to pass while a considerate driver will not take every opportunity they see.

These very polarised arguments on here don't really hold the answer at all.

If you drive a diesel then the answer, when you finally overtake them, is to floor the clutch pedal and accelerator, blasting them with a cloud of black carcinogenic particles.

Particularly apt when the OP is 'fuming' 🙂

If you drive a diesel then the answer, when you finally overtake them, is to floor the clutch pedal and accelerator, blasting them with a cloud of black carcinogenic particles.

Or slam on your brakes once past, as your entitled and legally allowed to do. Any resulting damage to your vehichle will be at the cost of said rider/s.

Choice.
I have to assume that most of the above is [i]Tongue in cheek[/i], no?

Or slam on your brakes once past, as your entitled and legally allowed to do

not sure that you can without reason - didn't some surgeon in the states do that in his SUV some years ago - made a real mess of one of the cyclist who went through his rear window.

omg still going on about this? roadies are ****ers at the best of times. weave all over the road and have no respect for other road users. you know we wont hit u so u act like pricks. if u looked over your sholder and there was some 50cent looking guy built like a brick shit house driving with his home boys revving his engine u would soon move over

Tony, your Mother might want you to go and have a bath now.

50cent looking guy built like a brick shit house driving with his home boys revving his engine u would soon move over

been there, called the police, driver was arrested. Wasn't the first complaint.

Konastoner - Member
Or slam on your brakes once past, as your entitled and legally allowed to do. Any resulting damage to your vehichle will be at the cost of said rider/s.

guff.

Or slam on your brakes once past, as your entitled and legally allowed to do. Any resulting damage to your vehichle will be at the cost of said rider/s.

you mean the uninsured cyclist, so you would deliberately cause a crash just to cause yourself the grief of a trip to court to launch a civil claim,

Remind me next time i see a car carrying bikes to shoot the driver, it is the only way to be safe, I used to think it was the ****s in Audis and BMWs i needed to watch out for, now i know it is the ones with mtbs on the back.

were does this put me? i ride my mtb on the road to get to the place i want to ride

roadies are **** at the best of times. weave all over the road and have no respect for other road users.

were does this put me? i ride my mtb on the road to get to the place i want to ride

Nothing personal but with your attitude in a box 6'under is the only safe place for the rest of us.

I hate riding on country lanes due to all these issues.
I often have to briefly to link up bridleway sections.
How people actually enjoy spending hours on the roads regularly dealing with these stressful dangerous situations is beyond me.
I always wave and let cars through at the earliest opportunity even if it means track standing for 20 seconds at a driveway or passing point.
Lots of nutcases on the road and I don't want an angry one behind me even if I technically have right of way.

[i][s]were[/s] Where does this put me? [s]i[/s] I ride my mtb on the road to get to the place [s]i[/s] I want to ride.[/i]

It puts you in the same place as everyone else; needing to appreciate that the way forward is to learn tolerance and to discard muppetry.

(I'll risk the English correction, knowing full well that some bright spark will be along soon to correct me...)

weave all over the road

case law, going back over 100 years, bikes are allowed to wobble, this is why you have to overtake properly.

A car hitting a wobbling cyclist is totally at fault, tested time and time again, driver will loose any court case.

For balance, I've just got back from a road ride and had a thoroughly pleasant time. Drivers were fine and gave me ample space when passing. Those that had to wait for me I gave a wave as passing. On the tight mountain passes I waved through vehicles from behind me when I had the better line of vision. They waved back saying thanks.

Back to the OP - four miles does seem excessive!

How people actually enjoy spending hours on the roads regularly dealing with these stressful dangerous situations is beyond me.

despite what some might think, it is actually very rare, sightly more common than being threatened by a shotgun toting landowner,or riding bridleways and being confronted by falling pheasants, shot etc. yes both have happened more than once!

Most people on the road are considerate, all sides, but there are ****s.

I don't get this, when we go out on the road there are 2 camps in our group. A bunch who ride their own way and don't worry about cars and a bunch who are more considerate. When we get to big numbers we tend to split into 2 smaller groups. The back group who split to be more considerate will ride single but the others tend to stay double.

It's a real divide and a source of frustration we sit at the back whinge and shout 'car'

It's daft if you frustrate car drivers they are more likely to go something silly and from how they drive round here they don't need encouragement to be knobs

Saxabar, agree with what you said.
Just got in from a 2 hour ride and didnt get any hassle from drivers despite being out in rush hour traffic. I moved in close to the kerb where appropriate in order to make an overtake easier when i knew there was a car behind me....i think most of us on this thread know the kind of cyclists the OP was talking about....there are some idiots with a superior attitude because they are on a bike and intentionally make life difficult for cars, there are also the group riders who refuse to make themselves easier to overtake....i have no idea why they do this, small penis perhaps?....either way, a small group give the majority a bad name.

I'm sure it's all been said before, but if you have a large group of people riding single file, then you are inviting cars to pass, sometimes in dangerous circumstances. Say that car gets half way through the group only to be met with a lorry coming the other way, there's only one way they're going to swerve...

On the other hand however, riding two or three abreast cuts the length of the group by at least half. Effectively making it [i]easier[/i] to pass safely.

Yes, I pull in and sometimes even stop to let cars past, but I ride by myself and it's easy to do. I'm guessing it's not so easy to manage that in a large group.

The frustration of drivers comes from the core belief that they have right of way. I even feel it myself when I'm driving: the collective mindset, with almost telepathically connected peer pressure. It's a very real problem that needs addressed at the root. Those core beliefs must change. As threads like this prove with cyclists attacking cyclists for, ahem, cycling.

So what if your journey takes a couple more minutes along a scenic country lane. Is it that big a deal? Something too get stressed about? To fight over? To kill someone out of impatience...?

I don't get this, when we go out on the road there are 2 camps in our group. A bunch who ride their own way and don't worry about cars and a bunch who are more considerate. When we get to big numbers we tend to split into 2 smaller groups. The back group who split to be more considerate will ride single but the others tend to stay double.

Perhaps the front group put their own safety above being "more considerate"?

Clearly, as can be seen in this thread, opinions differ on what is safer - but it is quite possible that both your groups are doing what they think is safest and think the other group is wrong.

This belief that cyclists riding 2 abreast when in a group is selfish because it takes up space on the road...

1. It's legal
2. It's frequently safer for both cyclists and drivers because it helps stop drivers overtaking inappropriately
3. It's how group cycling has been for over 100 years, including at least 50 years before cars came into mass ownership!!!!

Where does this idea come from that this has to change because car drivers don't like it?

just a thought,

this road, most narrow windy rounds i know are solid white lines, ie you must not overtake.

How many of the drivers here have overtaken cyclists on a solid white line, which is illegal? How many tried not to cross the white line to do this?

Yes i have overtaken cyclists crossing a solid white line, It comes down to common sense about how you do it. if you can't do it safely for all parties you don't try.

Earlier today i was driving for 5miles behind a tractor on the A39 doing c20mph, such is life, can't overtake, why worry about it.

Is it likely that at any point in the future, group riding on the public highway could be outlawed due to the actions of obstinate die-hards..?

It's a serious question, as rules frequently get updated to suit the changing times and the needs of the majority..
could it happen..?
especially if the imagined cycling revolution [i]does[/i] take place and many more cyclists take to the roads..

Is it likely that at any point in the future, group riding on the public highway could be outlawed due to the actions of obstinate die-hards..?

Should we ban car rallys, been held up a few times by old codgers driving classic cars through the cotswolds?

I am not fussed, but i guess society seems to be getting less tolerant not more, so anything is possible.

Mind you if more cyclists take to the road it is less likely.

Would come down to who has the money, cyclists tend to be reasonably affluent, ie have power. If it was benefit scroungers or young people then it would get banned.

Not illegal to cross if they are slow,,

[i]Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. [b]You may[/b] cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, [b]or overtake a pedal cycle[/b], horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.[/i]

Mind you if more cyclists take to the road it is less likely.

I'm not so sure.. we'd still be in an enormous minority wouldn't we..? I don't know the statistics.. There'd just be many more of us for motorists to get in a flap about.. more deaths per annum, more road rage incidents etc

if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less

I suspect they weren't.

I pull in for drivers when riding two abreast, and if it's been a while I will even pull over and stop. I get a smile and a wave.

Legality be damned, it's just nice.

Not sure what I'd do if I were in a big group though.

Not illegal to cross if they are slow,,

agreed, but 10mph is SLOW!!!! almost any cyclist on a flat road can easily be doing that sort of speed.

It obviously needs to be updated to take carbon and lycra clad awsomeness into account 😉

Is it likely that at any point in the future, group riding on the public highway could be outlawed due to the actions of obstinate die-hards..?

Politically, practically and legally impossible.
Road races (at grass roots level) are at more of a risk and I know a couple of courses have been lost due to NIMBY locals - there was an incident last week in Surrey where the police stopped a race after complaints by locals but that prompted a furious reaction from everyone involved.

I'm not so sure.. we'd still be in an enormous minority wouldn't we..? I don't know the statistics.. There'd just be many more of us for motorists to get in a flap about..

agreed, which is where the money comes in, will a government ban things their voters do, voters tend to be better off. cyclists tend to be better off. etc. Not saying they won't, just don't think they will.

kids/young people don't vote so they can go jump, hence banning raves etc. easy vote winner.

I'm just thinking gypsy trotting races etc which are very similar in many ways and were banned for similar reasons

EDIT - ah.. I'm now understanding the vote winning stuff..

But that does sort of indicate that some roadies may well consider themselves to be surly mavericks, above reproach, and the law, and certainly not bound by silly constraints like common sense and social acceptability.. and by the same logic not too dissimilar to our nomadic brethren.. 😉

Interesting point yunki as there are loads of those round my way and they present a big road hazard, even when out 'training'.

But that does sort of indicate that some roadies may well consider themselves to be surly mavericks, above reproach, and the law, and certainly not bound by silly constraints like common sense and social acceptability..

not through deliberate thought , but i don't doubt some see themselves as rebelling against the system, no different to middle aged audi driving IT consultants who think it is fine to build jumps on footpaths.

People are funny.

Just wait until there's a critical mass of us.

Gotta laugh at all this! Talking about cyclists flouting the law (it ain't even against the law!) and all that - and you can go out any time day or night and see a substantial number of car drivers speeding and (worse in my book) driving way too close to the car in front, totally unable to see the road ahead and/or react. Ultimately, cyclists being conservative about letting a car past kills no-one.

certainly not bound by silly constraints like common sense and social acceptability..

Or some may just think that [i]common sense[/i] means not endangering yourself for the sake of social acceptability?

It's interesting that there are two opposing opinions here both talking about safety.

But the main argument from one side seems to be saying that cyclists should know their place and cower in the gutter, accepting increased dangers, lest they upset someone and are deservedly murdered by his car.

Personally I'm happy to be as considerate as I can be, but my safety comes way ahead of politeness.
I don't ride in road groups, but if I did I'd stick true to that and do what I felt was safest, which may often mean upsetting a driver.

Talking about cyclists flouting the law (it ain't even against the law!) and all that

I think you've misunderstood..
the law is not the issue.. we're debating as to whether that as a morally superior species, we cyclists should show consideration and compassion to our less well evolved brethren, and the debilitating panic that they suffer when they encounter us in their metal death machines..

I and others believe that we would be doing ourselves and them a favour by helping them to get past and on their way as swiftly as possible, even if that means, god forbid, slowing or stopping our forward progress momentarily..

Where as some grumpy old men who didn't rebel enough in their youth believe that we should stand up for our right to block the carriageway regardless of the negative outcome..

Just to recap, a group of cyclists riding two abreast on a windy road and pulling into a garage to get out of the way is bad,

Threatening to kill cyclists for holding up drivers is good?

Does that about sum it up?

no

I think you've misunderstood..
the law is not the issue.. it's the fact that as a morally superior species, we cyclists should show consideration and compassion to our less well evolved brethren, and the panic that they suffer when they encounter us in their metal death machines..

I and others believe that we would be doing ourselves and them a favour by helping them to get past and on their way..

Where as some grumpy old men who didn't rebel enough in their youth believe that we should stand up for our rights regardless of the negative outcome..

What some people fail to grasp is that every rider that rides in the gutter makes that the norm in the eyes of car drivers. So everyone that rides properly (pro-actively, communicating with drivers but not hiding in the side of the road) is considered by some to be obstinate/beligerent/asking for it.

We do not need to borrow the bit of road that others aren't using - that isn't even the road, it's the gutter.

no-one mentioned riding in the gutter until you did, just then.. don't invent a new argument at this late stage in the proceedings..! 😆

I and others believe that we would be doing ourselves and them a favour by helping them to get past and on their way as swiftly as possible, even if that means, god forbid, slowing or stopping our forward progress momentarily..

And what if that means compromising your safety or the safety of those in your group, or even the driver?

Still let them past?

no

having actually read the whole thread seemed to me that alot of supposed cyclists seemed to be suggesting that killing cyclists was ok.

maybe i misread that?

If there is one or two of you it is easy to get out of the way, and yes i do try and help drivers past, but never if it means endangering myself and if that means taking a lane for a while so be it. Problem comes when you get a group of more than half dozen. group dynamics car drivers impatience etc. To be honest you rarely get the situation where a driver will be behind you for more than a few hundred metres, because they will force there way through.

Maybe the cyclists were confused by a driver not trying to kill them with some dodgy overtaking manoeuvre?

Just to recap, a group of cyclists riding two abreast on a windy road and pulling into a garage to get out of the way is bad,

Clearly not, why are you twisting it around?

Needlessly holding up a fellow human being for selfish reasons is bad.

They didn't call it riding in the gutter, but that's what I'd call it! A good metre to the road edge is what I consider a minimum. Some car drivers expect much closer.

Needlessly holding up a fellow human being for selfish reasons is bad.

I must write that book one day, I really must. 'The Science of Rockets'

Though I must chip in about spacing out a group...non. It's the whole communications thing? once you've agreed exactly who and where to split up. How do you let the driver know that he/she is meant to nip into the gap. Then once the car is in the group how does he/she signal pot holes or gravel to the riders behind.

The big problem is those pesky country lanes, you get all sorts of slow moving stuff on em.
That's why God created bypasses.

Needlessly holding up a fellow human being for selfish reasons is bad.

that's all I'm saying.. but as a result of this thread I'm now also beginning to understand the group riding dynamic thing and the inherent dangers to both the group, and to any that happen to be sharing the road with them..

Clearly not, why are you twisting it around?

Needlessly holding up a fellow human being for selfish reasons is bad.

how do we know it was needless, they pulled into a garage, which on the basis of exaggeration, was probably the first place they could safely as a group get out of the way. Having had a read of the OPs contributions and his posting history i suspect 4miles is a tad OT.

The bit about the cyclists having a go doesn't surprise me, attack is the best form of defence and if a car stops when you do, do you assume they are going to be pleasant or be an arse? I am sorry to say for me and i suspect most it is the latter.

Its a good job you were polite cos i recon nine dude's and one girl in lycra would have kicked your arse.Unless your Jackie Chan,I'm hard,Bruce Lee.

Where as some grumpy old men who didn't rebel enough in their youth believe that we should stand up for our right to block the carriageway regardless of the negative outcome..

How do you legitimise that opinion when cycling 2 abreast in groups was common practice for 50 years before cars came into mass usage?

The first Tour de France was 1903 - so group cycling must have been in place before then (my own road club was formed in 1935) but cars didn't start being owned by the masses till after WW2 - early 50's

So there are more cars now, yes, and fewer cyclists. But what's the logical link there which says cyclists should be compelled to ride differently now?

Don't forget that 2 abreast is because it's more efficient to ride like that - there's a very good functional reason for it. And more cars on the road does not change the functional reasons & benefits for group riding...

Which is the more selfish though? Thinking a couple of extra minutes on your journey is more important than letting cyclists decide when they feel safe sounds pretty selfish to me.

Needlessly holding up a fellow human being for selfish reasons is bad.

Even if the "selfish reason" is not wanting to be endangered or killed?

For all the taxes you pay in this country I still don't understand why the roads are so shit. Even busy A roads are completely dangerous. The A470 is a deathtrap and those silly single carriage stone bridges that always follow sharp blind corners are ridiculous.

Which is the more selfish though? Thinking a couple of extra minutes on your journey is more important than letting cyclists decide when they feel safe sounds pretty selfish to me.

This.

Edit: you can debate all day what's safer, what you should be doing, and whatever else. But there's a lot of intimidation on the roads, whether you mean to do it or not, and some very real risks. It doesn't take much to hang back and give a little room while you wait for a safe opportunity, no matter how long that is...it's never too far away.

[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/technique-the-secrets-of-group-road-riding-28701/ ]Group riding technique[/url]

Those of you who think riding 2 abreast is selfish - read this...

How many good reasons do you need?

It's all just another reason for riding off road

Which is the more selfish though?

Well, that is a good question. Hard to say on the information we have I think.

I don't know the road, maybe a street view link would be useful? But if it were 10 cyclists I'd have thought they could fairly easily melted into single file. I don't know many roads where it's not safe to pass single file for four miles, and if I did I really don't think I'd cycle on them never mind lead a group there because I personally do not want to get in anyone's way.

I pull over frequently when towing my carvan too, for the same reason. Also, if I am standing in someone's way in the supermarket I move. All the same thing, to me.

For all the taxes you pay in this country I still don't understand why the roads are so shit.

Well we pay less than many European countries, for a start. And many of the roads are the same layout as they were 100 years ago when people were on horseback, so of course there are issues. Use your noggin.

So there are more cars now, yes, and fewer cyclists. But what's the logical link there which says cyclists should be compelled to ride differently now?

see my earlier gypsy trotting comment.. I see both sides of the coin.. and have already answered these points earlier in the thread..

I don't know many roads where it's not safe to pass single file for four miles, and if I did I really don't think I'd cycle on them never mind lead a group there because I personally do not want to get in anyone's way

this times a thousand..

I'm not entering into a perpetual circular argument with each new person that logs in and joins the debate..
I'm only playing devils advocate because I feel that our relationship with motorists doesn't need any more antagonism..

It's all just another reason for riding off road

this times a gazillion

Seems there's a signal for 'slow down' - perfectly applicable for pulling into an area to allow drivers to pass, perhaps?

__________________________________________
Critical Mass Poll on Page 8 of the Kettling thread - make your voice heard!

But if it were 10 cyclists I'd have thought they could fairly easily melted into single file.

as pointed out on page 1 or 2, to safely pass 10 single file riders in one hit you do need alot of space, to pass 5 pairs you need alot less space.

The last thing you want is a car attempting the move then aborting and pulling into the group because they ran out of room. If your lucky the cyclists can get out of the way by braking, worst case you end up hitting cyclists and someone is going to hospital, and it won't be the driver.

Seems there's a signal for 'slow down' - perfectly applicable for pulling into an area to allow drivers to pass, perhaps?

and the group did pull into a garage where the OP then confronted them.....

and the group did pull into a garage where the OP then confronted them.....

I don't know the road, maybe a street view link would be useful? But if it were 10 cyclists I'd have thought they could fairly easily melted into single file.

I'm sure they could have. But multiple folk have suggested that makes it harder to pass them and increases danger to the group.

We don't know the road, but even the OP said "[i]its wide enough for two cars to pass but not two cars and a bike[/i]" so exactly where is he going to go if he starts passing a long single file of bikes and an oncoming car appears from around the bend?? (which is likely given the road is "[i]just a bit too winding for me to pass safely[/i]")

From the OPs own statement there was no option to pass safely - so I can't understand people getting worked up about the roadies not letting him attempt an unsafe pass. The only realistic option was for them to pull in somewhere safe and let him past, which they eventually did.

To expect anything else is to expect them to endanger themselves for the convenience of others.