[Closed] Horror story with Maxxis High Rollers in mud episode II

I have a High Roller on the front of my Zesty and an Ardent on the back. Went out in the mud today. Crashed a lot

They're coming off!

Super Tacky Swampthings - job done! I use High Rollers in the summer but the Swampthings go on as soon as things get gloopy. That said, Super Tacky HRs aren't bad - I'm guessing if the tyres came as stock that they are standard compound - 60a or STs make the world of difference to grip.

Maxxis beavers.. sweet in the slippy stuff here in the lakes.

lol Kato! Don't they suck! ; )
more expense! 2 new tyres...DAMN!
Jas

yes they HR were stock on a new Piglet! Amazng bike after I tweaked the dashboard but them tyres inspire zero confidence and def reduce human life expentancy!

Shocker. Tyres not designed for mud are sh1t in mud. Who'd have thunk it?.

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

Shocker. Tyres not designed for mud are sh1t in mud. Who'd have thunk it?.

Well, High Rollers aren't very good for anything really, are they? 😉

off course tyres are specific! Just reporting experience!

I've yet to find something that High Rollers actually do well.

People say they're a great DH tyre - I wouldn't know.
For general riding around I've never used a worse tyre - sketchy, no grip, just awful.

Bontrager XR4's, Spesh Purgatories and Maxxis Ignitors are my kind of tyre. But I'm sure DH'ers would disagree. 🙂

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

Shocker. Tyres not designed for mud are sh1t in mud. Who'd have thunk it?.

Oh i knew they'd be rubbish. I'm just too tight to buy new tyres 😆

For mud - spesh storm control. Brilliant tyres.

[i]For general riding around I've never used a worse tyre - sketchy, no grip, just awful. [/i]

The lad I was out with today runs HR's on the front, it was very muddy (Scottish Borders) and he had no issues - maybe you're running them with too much psi, or are they cheap/wire HR's?

For me, single-ply Minion DHF and Ardent rear.

Spesh purgatory. The best non mud specific tyre for mud in my opinion. Thick mud & roots here at the moment. Tyres held up perfectly on a 28 mile loop yesterday.

b r, I just don't get on with the gap between the centre tread and the side knobs - the lack of grip before the side knobs take over scares me fartless.

I know others don't have a problem - better riders (like mamadirt up there) don't seem to notice tyres, but the rest of us need all the help we can get.

Always found HR's to be pretty good all round tyres, maybe not the best in thick slop, but ok in watery mud.

I'd echo the recommendation of Swampthings - they're amazing in the mud, but really draggy on tarmac, especially in super tacky form.

Bontrager Mud seem to get good reviews. I'm using XR4's at the moment and really like them.

Spesh purgatory. The best non mud specific tyre for mud in my opinion. Thick mud & roots here at the moment. Tyres held up perfectly on a 28 mile loop yesterday.

Agreed. I have a purg on the front and a storm on the back of my soul, ace tyres, pretty cheap, and tubeless too. Win win.

Muddy as hell on the chase today. High rollers handled it no problems although slippy on the pebbles and roots. I think they are a very good all rounder. Get some trail rakers for mud specific tyres - awesome grip and clearance

Ridden through Dartmoor crap on highrollers for about two years whatever the weather. They have finally worn out so i replaced them with some Continental Baron Black Chilli's. Absolutely amazing, didn't loose grip at all in the mud, and was pounding past people that normally leave me behind in the mud. I think I found my perfect tyre for the UK today, after just one ride on them.

It must be the tyres. The alternative is unthinkable.

It must be the tyres. The alternative is unthinkable.

😆

Maxxpro swampthings run high psi

I had problems with High Rollers until I learnt that under no circumstances can you apply any braking at all on the front wheel in corners.
Once I'd realised that, I got on fine and as a result learnt to ride a lot better.

YMMV

Nothing wrong with high rollers, they are a great all rounder.

They need to be lent over into corners hard, otherwise they are pretty vague.

Perhaps try a mud x or spesh storm.

looks like spesh have just discontinued the purgatory. Always seems to happen, just when you've found the right tyre! Now they've got a great range of back tyres [storm, captain, fast track etc. but nothing xc/am for the front unless you go for the full on clutch which is too much for my normal/average riding.

I use a high roller on the front year round, I'd echo the sentiment that you need to lean them over in the corners, or you'll lose grip.

Looking at the storm- it looks like a less over-grippy swampthing?

Swampthings are brilliant but boy they are like trail-velcro 😆

At one of the pearce races at Rhyd Y Felin the bottom field was long wet grass.For hats and giggles on evening a few people put HR's on to see if anyone could make it down upright.....cue MASSIVE sidewaysness 😀

for many years I used to harp on about High Rollers and how they rewarded the more aggressive rider who leaned over more in corners, until I realised that there were tyres our there (not least the Minion) that gave you grip between straight up and 45 degs to vertical.

It's not the tyre, it's your riding style. I've been riding since summer with a Rubber Queen up front, and in the dry it lets you get away with anything. Once the mud arrived if I went into any corner without leaning the bike on its side it understeered horribly, just sliding outwards along the wide paddle knobs down the centre (like the High Roller). Get it over onto the side knobs (past the gap - which is much wider on the HRs) and it just rails the turn. We were out riding some steep slippery downhill runs yesterday and one of my riding mates had a HR up front and it wasn't slowing him down at all. (I've discovered that I have an asymmetric cornering style in the process of making the RQ work - have been trying to unZoolander myself for the last month...)

With HRs you seem to need to be more aggressive in leaning the bike onto the side knobs. I've never really had any problems with them. Spesh Clutch SX does everything better though and way lighter!

I used to use high rollers on the DH bikes almost all year around unless it was really bad and required swamp things which was rarely. Granted I used ST up front but they were awesome

Was on my 2.5 dh HR's last weekend at Wharncliffe and they felt fine would echo the point that you really need to leean them right over when cornering.
When it gets really gloopy though I switch to swampthings , there's nothing else that I feel confident with in mud .They aren't too shabby on rocky stuff either.
Having said that 15st of me + a 42lb steel DH bike sinks through the mud quite nicely 😳

Purgatory not discontinued,but they have just brought out a new version
http://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/detail/EquipTiresMTBAllMountain/All%20Mountain%20MTB

Well i've been using high roller tyres all summer. Mainly for rocky dark peak rides. But they held up today in the mud. My only gripe is they seem to be wearing quickly. Though they are wire bead and cheep ones.

brant - Member

I had problems with High Rollers until I learnt that under no circumstances can you apply any braking at all on the front wheel in corners.
Once I'd realised that, I got on fine and as a result learnt to ride a lot better.

YMMV

kudos100 - Member

Nothing wrong with high rollers, they are a great all rounder.

They need to be lent over into corners hard, otherwise they are pretty vague.

So they punish poor technique with a smack in the face.
Poor design really, isn't it? 🙂

There was an excellent discussion of the trade offs faced by tyre designers on the original On-One Smorgasbord thread [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/on-one-smorgasbord-tyres ]here. [/url]

Basically, does a gap between central tread and edge tread lead to increased edge grip?
I'm not convinced it's a necessary compromise, but then again I'm not a tyre designer. 😀

I had a few issues going from high rollers to hans Dampfs. With hrs you just slap the bike over into flat corners stand on the outside pedal and it grips. Hans threw me on the floor a few times until I realised what was going on. Different tyres handle different.

I've just put a HR on the front and my SPDs back on.

This thread is filling me with confidence.

Basically, does a gap between central tread and edge tread lead to increased edge grip?
I'm not convinced it's a necessary compromise, but then again I'm not a tyre designer.

On soft ground it's the inside edges of the edge knobs that grip when cornering. The wider the space on the inside edge of those knobs, the easier it is for those knobs to make good contact with the ground. The wider the space, the less easily that space will get clogged up too. However on hard ground it's the top of the knobs that grip so if they're too far to the outside of the tyre then you won't get onto those faces.

What are you High rollers? I may buy them off you 😉

Remember buying some HR's from skyline at Afan, the chap selling them actually asked to make sure I wasn't planning on putting them on the front! Not actually tried them on the front, and that warning probably has something to do with that. On the rear though, with a minion on the front, and in benign conditions, it's the best combo I've ridden.

StuE - Member
Purgatory not discontinued,but they have just brought out a new version

The new purgatory control 2.3 looks fatter than the old 2.2 and with a larger gap between centre and edge tread. not as suitable for xc, and probably not as good in mud.

Glad I managed to pick an old stock 2.2 from Harry Hall yesterday!

 

On soft ground it's the inside edges of the edge knobs that grip when cornering. The wider the space on the inside edge of those knobs, the easier it is for those knobs to make good contact with the ground. The wider the space, the less easily that space will get clogged up too. However on hard ground it's the top of the knobs that grip so if they're too far to the outside of the tyre then you won't get onto those faces.

Ok.

If you have an intermediate row between centre and side knobs, the total 'inside edge' surface increases, surely?

However the pressure exerted by each mm of 'inside edge' will obviously decrease, due to the extra contact area of the intermediate row.

This will definitely result in reduced grip in wet conditions?

ardent on the rear feels like an exercise in tyre sliding management in mud. minion on front is fab. i likedthe advantage as a good compromise, but no decent width tubeless.

When you're cornering gently then the intermediate knobs will act like the proper edge knobs but with less grip because they're smaller knobs (less tall and less long) with less clear space on their inside due to the centre knobs. Once you're cornering hard the intermediate knobs will block the edge knobs' access to the ground even if those intermediate knobs line up with the gaps between the edge knobs (remember everything is moving and flexing). The other issue with intermediate knobs is when they cause things to clog up - if the inside edges of the edge knobs are blocked by mud then they can't bite.

No problems here. For my Scottish forest riding they do really well in most conditions. They didn't perform any less well than Nates going up and down a very sloppy Inschriach yesterday! Swampies in the real gloop and snow, HRs for most of the year, SB8/RR/Aspen for the dry or when speed is required!

Once you're cornering hard the intermediate knobs will block the edge knobs' access to the ground even if those intermediate knobs line up with the gaps between the edge knobs (remember everything is moving and flexing).

If the ground is soft, surely the edge knobs will sink into the ground up to the tyre carcass regardless? As would the intermediate knobs, for that matter?

Not trying to be awkward or doubting your knowledge, just interested. 🙂

From memory like many widish tyres i felt that HR would sometimes float on top of the gloop rather than biting into it

When my HR were new the need to lean thing was quite a big deal, less so as the centre tread wore down.

When I first got them I thought they were designed so that in a straight line you were balanced only on the centre blocks for lower rolling resistance.

But this may not be true

For a non mud tyre I thought they were quite good at not clogging

Been a High Roller fan for years. I like Minion f's on the front these days with HR's on the back.

Used that combination for years now all over the UK and the Alps.

HR's should be printed with "aggressive riders only" on the side. I should know as they turned me into one after finding the sweet spot. That sweet spot is very though...

My front is a sticky 2.3 and its ace in every condition.

Braking in corners? Don't get it! You brake before the corner and then stuff your front wheel in!

loads of bragarts here talking pish amongst some nuggets of good sense! What can I expect online!
Agressive skillful riders have no prob with pish tyres, yeh yeh , whatever!
Thanks to everyone who passed of their experience without bigging up their trail finese! ; )
Bottom line. I dont dig HR's in wet mud and will try something else.
Happy riding folks

And here's me thinking i couldn't ride....now it all makes sense. I just need some new tyres.

Jason, tip the bike way over when you enter a corner then you'll understand. It isn't necessarily 'aggressive' or 'skilful', it's about leaning the bike. They tend to go together though. Lean the bike and they will bite!

hey chief, the principle is sound but you cant make make these badboys work on my trails. The kit ain't able for the job. No point trying to make do, better just to change rubber IMO!
Been riding the same trails for 10 years + and these HR's are an all time performance low.
Anyway, I wanted some good tyre recommendations and I got some!

Maxxis swampthing up front ( not the sticky ones unless you have legs bigger the Sir Christopher Hoy,tried them all)
bontrager mud x on the back= not falling off in the mud and on slippery roots and leaves are ok.Skills not required.Perfect for me who doesn't go into corners considering angles.

good call jonny!
Maxxis Swampthings look good but aren't they downhill tyres? After a more XC affair really!

Any of you skillful aggressive riders fancy some Maxxis high Rollers for a good price?

Jeez, just go and ride ffs. Rode the Rowberrow DHs today with new 60 compound HRs front and back, slipped around a bit, but what do you expect? It was fun, no one died.

i like high rollers, they do move around alot in the mud but then i figure most stuff does ?

+ for me is 10 months of use not a single flat 😀

If the ground is soft, surely the edge knobs will sink into the ground up to the tyre carcass regardless? As would the intermediate knobs, for that matter?

If the ground is soft then not only do the inside edges of the edge knobs have to grip against the ground, the ground they're gripping against has to stay attached to the rest of the ground. You know that stripey mark you get in the ground when your tyre suddenly slips outwards? That's the top layer which your tyre knobs are gripping against being sheared off sideways as it fails to resist your cornering force. An open channel between centre and edge knobs helps to give your tyre a wider and more stable chunk of ground to grip against.

I am assuming the op is talking about 2.1 60a xc high rollers, which can be a bit of a handful in mud. If he means 2.35s, or 2.5s then he really needs to get some coaching.

Whilst HRs are not ideal for mud they are workable in any conditions with a bit of skill.

Can't say that I've noticed any 'braggarts' on here just a few folks saying that actually HRs aint so bad as you say. Perhaps you dislike that advice because it implies you lack certain riding skills but that doesn't make it pish.

For what its worth on a very rooty muddy ride last week I was heard to remark 'you know for not a mud tyre High Rollers aint bad in mud'

I fully agree that HR's suit a more aggressive style.

I also agree that braking in corners is poor technique - it sits the bike up, ruins your line and decreases available grip, the latter trait exacerbated by certain tread patterns, of which HR's are a prime example.

Not sure that agressive ALWAYS equals better.

Obviously the design compromise inherent in certain tread patterns suits different styles of riding.
But as I said before, more skillful and experienced riders are usually more capable of adapting to different designs.

Apart form a very brief encounter with some tyre shaped michelin things, i've used only HRs since I started mtbing. No real reason for this but they came fitted to my first two bikes and I just replaced when needed them as I had no real issues. There is the odd occasion when they feel out of their depth (wet and slippery off-camber clay stuff mostly) but for a lazy git who doesn't want to be swapping tyres unless they're bald/ripped, they get my vote.

I think people get carried away with how much you need to lean over to find the grip - it's not that far over really - but if your not comfortable doing that, then there's no shame. I'm sure there's plenty of other tyres that offer a similar amount of grip (a lot of riding friends as using specialised tyres atm).

The braking into corners thing is a little scary. I didn't think anyone would be so daft. No wonder there;s a demand for coaching to ride a bike 😆

Just done the nofussevent at Kinlochleven with a High Roller on the back ,found it ok and it was a mudfest down the bottom of the trails

My bike came with hi-rollers, and I've yet to replace either so the rear's all but bald. And they're still great, no problems anywhere. And I ride with a serial tyre experimenter, and ride everything he does just as easily, including mendip mud.

It's not the tyres; but just to throw you a bone - maybe it's the pressures. 🙂

Clue's in the name with High Rollers 😉

Chief raises a good point about square tyres vs round ones. If you've come from something rounder it will feel horrible as you won't be used to clicking in with the gap. One riding style is not necessarily better in a broad sense, but square tyres are popular in the DH world.

I'm currently trying out some Geax Datura on my Blue Pig X which are higher volume 2.2 and very knobby. I didn't want a typical low volume mud tyre. They grip and clear very well due to the tall knobs, the profile is a bit square, but not as severe as a HR. A trade off for a tyre that clears well is that it can be a bit more prone to roots if you're not paying attention, but then again a clogged tyre won't grip anything!

Cheap a chips at On-One (£12.99 ea) [url= http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/TYGXDTTT-26-BLK-22/geax_datura_mtb_ust_tubeless_tyre___26er___black___22inch ]HERE[/url] and they're UST if you're that way inclined.

[img] [/img]

They aren't light (890-900g) as they have more DH/FR oriented casings, but I think they still come in lighter than Swamp Things (1100g+ IIRC). I'm going tubeless to offset the weight a bit, they're pretty tight on the rim so I feel confident in them staying put.

They're not a mud tyre

I've not got much to compare tyres to but 2.35 High Rollers front and read here and they're great for the Peak District - then again we don't have much in the way of mud... Or corners 😀

I like High Rollers, but then I stay off the front brake in corners. The problem I find is that the side walls are a bit weak, which can lead to pinch flats when hammering the trail centres.

FYI "Rowberrow DHs" are renowned as the slipperiest trails in the known universe :-/ but I object to being called a "serial tyre experimenter " 😛

+1 for the tyre pressures. I run 25psi front and back on lust hr and although it took some getting used to, they are great

Which Highrollers !?

2.1's = skinny for their size, very low profile tread, skinny sidewalls. Nice and light though.

2.35. Fantastic hardcore/enduro tyre. Deep profile, bigger tread (more like the 2.5DH version) in dual ply, very flat-proof. Used these for 3 of the megavalanche events (on the rear mainly) and have been great. (you get snow, mud, dust, roots and rocks over there, in one days riding)

2.5 duel ply. Awesome, well used DH tyre. They have lost ground on the DH scene to other brands recently, but are still a good benchmark tyre.

Along with all that, (when it comes to the .35 & .5's, you have tread compound, (3c, 42a ect) and tyre pressure.

For general XC use, no tyre is shite these days really, its the rider, and the rider not having them setup right. You could have the worlds grippiest tyres going, come flying round a corner, loose it, & fall off! yeah, because it was a wet slippery root that caught you out! ..

Find all this lean it well over argument interesting - not always that easy on singletrack & if the trails are slippy, it means knocking back speed to allow the side to side flicks required. Sometimes it can be faster on a tyre that allows a more moderate lean - particularly applicable over rolling terrain where saddle height remains high & leaning requires more co-ordination & offers less weight distribution options than a low saddle.
That said, I like Maxxis Advantages & use them in any condition - like the Maxxis Aspens if/when the trails dry out, although find them quite manageable until it does get properly slippery.
I recall a Hutchinson tyre - Scorpion? - marketed as a capable mud tyre - nothing from dead centre until you've almost hit the deck, meaning fast but flowing turns we're taken with no feel for grip - have hit corners & bike totally slid out, only to grip & carve at a ridiculously steep angle, end result was either a big high side if caught unaware & unable to recover, or a monster carve that usually meant veering straight off the trail into the nearest tree.
Crossmarks on leafy, loamy trails can be great fun or a complete nightmare, it depends on rider & mood. I have had a stonking ride with massive sideways action & lots of close calls / friendly nudges with the trees, but another day, same tyre & conditions & had a nightmare, fighting the bike rather than flowing & really struggling to stay upright.

Hundreds of downhillers disagree with this thread. Nothing comes close to the good old High Roller.

Besides in the winter you should be running a Minion on the front if you arn't running a mud specific tyre anyway - as mud tyres are shit in anything but mud.

The OP probably has the CHEAPO HARD COMPOUND OEM tyres as they came with the bike!

I had a few issues going from high rollers to hans Dampfs. With hrs you just slap the bike over into flat corners stand on the outside pedal and it grips. Hans threw me on the floor a few times until I realised what was going on. Different tyres handle different.

I like to chuck the bike around and throw it over aggressively into a corner - some people like to ride smoothly - so these tyre's are probably not great for me then? I was so leant over the other day mid corner I was reminded of superbike lean angles and I had the front and rear drifting - and still managed to pick the bike up without dabbing! I truly have no idea why people don't like High Rollers. I'll stay away from Hans Dampfs then, I was about to try some as well!

spot on bwaarp. these are cheapo hard compound! I bet the softies are a world apart! Bottom line for me is do i opt for a pure mud beast which is a bastard everywhere else! decisions decisions!

The damp hans and bobby nicks remind me of kenda surprises, which I quite like up to a point.

Find all this lean it well over argument interesting - not always that easy on singletrack & if the trails are slippy, it means knocking back speed to allow the side to side flicks required.

Lower your saddle and you will find you can go round corners faster.

bwaarp - Member

mud tyres are shit in anything but mud.

Tried the Baron/Der Baron? Not as good as a Minion or HR in the dry, but a long way from shit. Not as good as a full spike in the wet but then, not all the drawbacks of a spike.

I was so leant over the other day

..I saw Jesus*

*might have been Pete Scullion