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Hi,
I'm in the final stages of completing an extension to the house. It's basically a single storey with a (very) vaulted ceiling. In the 'roof space' above, there's a small open mezzanine area for storage etc. (I suppose a bit like a landing or an internal balcony). The walls will be plastered and painted, not wallpapered.
Since we want the ground-level area to be as minimalist as possible, I've no doubt that any suggestion of mounting speakers into 'optimum' position will be met with the usual restistance 🙄 The 'optimum position will be underneath the 'balcony'.
I'm pondering on the option of mounting speakers up on the mezzanine and 'bouncing' the sound down to the sofa off the wall opposite. Does anyone have experience of doing this? Would anyone care to postulate on just how much of a poor idea this is? Does anyone know if there's a website that might help me work out if this could ever work?
Thanks muchly,
Ben
It will sound rather poor; how poor is dependent on your ears and expectations/preferences. As soon as you move a few cm away from (stereo) ear level, high and high/mids start to drop away drastically, so having them that far 'out' of your seated position is really going affect the overall image. Exactly how the reflected sound will manifest is impossible to say, but you're going to have different frequencies reaching you at very different times. Obviously this happens with music played in any space, especially a large one, but we generally try to minimise this by having the speakers as close to our ears as possible.
If you just want music as background sound, as most people do, then your idea is at least worth a trial. If you want any kind of aural enjoyment, you're going to have to get those speakers into the living space.
Hmmm. I thought as much Three Fish.
To be honest I think the main 'sit and listen' system will be in another room, and this set-up will likely be for background sound.
I wonder if attaching a tube on the front of the tweeter (like a pringles tube!) might focus the higher range enough to provide some stereo imagery once the sound has bounced.....
Like you say, I'll have to have a play (all part of the fun!)
The alternative might be a pair of DIY Electrostatic tweeters finished in an artful way!
Ben
You could get some directivity control from building a suitable waveguide but that would require redesigning the crossover to compensate for the change in acoustic loading on the drivers. A better bet is probably omnidirectional speakers (like the Linkwitz Pluto) so your reflected and direct sound are sufficiently similar to fool the ear. With typical 2-way hi-fi speakers the dispersion is hugely inconsistent across their bandwidth, hence the need to position them so the direct sound dominates what you hear. Try it, see what happens. The tube in front of the tweeter will be a fail on many fronts! 😉
You'd probably be better off with inceiling speakers mounted above the seating area.
Kef do some good ones. Alernatively you could look at the Anthony Gallo speakers as they are tiny and quite pleasing to the eye.
[i]You could get some directivity control from building a suitable waveguide but that would require redesigning the crossover to compensate for the change in acoustic loading on the drivers.[/i]
I'm sure I heard them say that in Star Trek once 🙂
As soon as you move a few cm away from (stereo) ear level, high and high/mids start to drop away drastically
True, however easily got round by pointing the speakers at your ears, which I'd assumed was implicit in the question.
Depending on the various dimensions it might sound OK, I suspect most likely if the room is wide and not deep (from the listening position perspective), you'll only find out by trying.
Using rockwool etc might help cut out side reflections which might be the biggest issue. Jeez I'm bored, here's a crap diagram.
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7201/6875906403_76d770668f_z.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/7693620@N05/6875906403/ ]Mezzanine[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/7693620@N05/ ]alan cole[/url], on Flickr
Thanks Cynic-al - you've painted a picture from my words!
Now the in-ceiling speakers is an idea I hadn't even thought of - thanks for the suggestion!
Is that anything like the layout? If so I don't see why it would sound so awful.
Al: yep pretty much the arrangement, except the ceiling slopes quite dramatically from double height to single-plus-40cm height , thereby reflecting sound down.
I think it has the potential to make quite a spacious sound, but then it also has the equal possibility to sound terrible!
IMO you'd need the sound to be reflecting to your ear-level in the listening spot, which sounds tricky...unless you can hang the speakers from underneath the mezzanine floor?
What are the room dims?
Sorry for delayed response: Been running kids around and tracking down 5m leads at short notice as the plasterer is coming tomorrow!
Room dims are: front to back 2.7m, side to side 4.2m, mezzanine height (top) 2.2m
I reckon if I angle the speakers down by about 15degrees and in a bit then that'll be about right.
In my bathroom I get reflected sound when sitting in the bath - surprisingly Ok. Accustics are poor anyway 'cos its a bathroom and the speakers are mounted high on one wall - the opposite wall above the bath has sloping ceiling and when you are in the bath the sound seems to come from above / away from the speakers not the actual direction of the speakers.
Why not have the speakers hanging from underneath the mezzanine angled down?
not gonna cost you to try it out is it?
Why not hang the speakers under the mezzanine?
We'd all clonk our heads on them, and it would be more untidy than having them on stands in the correct position. It's gotta be on top until I've saved up for alternative speakers, which might just be in-ceiling types.
Pre-zackly Al.
I'll let you know how it goes.......
what about those flat speakers that you put pictures in, so they look like picture frames?
or is it going to be 'minimalist' to the point where pictures are not allowed?
Dave
NXT think they died a death.
If you mean electrostatic speakers, then they're likely to cost about 20% the value of the whole extension.
I did flirt with the idea of building some, but to be honest the rest of the equipment isn't worth it and I'm not about to splurge out on a new system as I don't get the time to listen to it these days......
Were the nxt ones any good?
Blobonastick, reflected sound is nasty, it carries an echo which is quite off putting. Take a look at these...
[url= http://stealthacoustics.com/invisible_speakers.php ]Stealth Acoustics[/url]
Completely invisible and can be installed in the optimum position. By far and away a better solution than attempting to bounce sound of walls.
NXT is not dead, you just need to know where to look;
[url= http://www.amina.co.uk/ ]Amina speakers[/url]
Of the two Stealth offer the better solution but need a little more depth. Finally, there are quite a few brands who make speakers that look like speakers; Artcoustic being the best, but Vibe and Monitor Audio have products worth looking at.
Email in profile if you want some more info.
Thanks Ask - I'll take a look at those.
I think the priority for today is getting some decent wiring into place before I'm chasing into fresh plasterwork!
Probably not an ideal audiophile solution, but isn't this the kind of thing that those Bose speakers are designed for - those little dual cube things with a discreet sub hidden away somewhere to give them some oomph?
Or are they designed more to fill a space than provide a stereo image?
Those stealth speakers above aren't very sensitive. Might be something to bear in mind depending on your amplification? And how do they do in the bass stakes? I know that when I used to read up on all this stuff years ago, the flat speakers were generally backed up with a sub.
I think the priority for today is getting some decent wiring into place before I'm chasing into fresh plasterwork!
some of those ones that @Ask posted set into the wall, or even get plastered over, so probably worth making a decision before your plasterer comes!
Dave
IME Bose appears to be designed to sound "big" and look cool.
True, however easily got round by pointing the speakers at your ears, which I'd assumed was implicit in the question.
I think you have an over-simplified understanding of audio. It is not 'easily got round' at all, unless of course the listener actually wants a tonal mess with no stereo image.
Yes, the sound will reach his ears; but the OP wanted to know if it would sound poor. The answer to that is still: yes.
Basically for proper hifi with a stereo image, good timbre and tone and all that there is no way to get round having two speakers at ear height in what broadly amounts to a triangle set up with the listener. If I were looking for a bit of background music that was very discrete then a couple of ceiling mounts are going to be very hard to beat, you just have to accept it wont be perfect.
Three-fish, have you tried it?
Assuming you get a decent reflection off the back wall, seems worth a try (and your sweet spot extends vertically way more than a "few centimetres" - at least it did when I was designing speakers professionally).
cynic-al - Member
IME Bose appears to be designed to sound "big" and look cool.
Indeed - all style, with perhaps a bit of substance has always been the way I've looked at them.
But, they might serve the purpose for a living room environment. Depends what the OP wants. He did say above that his 'sit & listen' system will be in another room, so does he really need/want an optimum stereo solution in a family living area?
Might be better off with a less 'audiophile' solution that still sounds good and delivers a nice sound...?
Bose acoustimass - that's what I was thinking of.
IME Bose appears to be designed to sound "big" and look cool
...and marketed similarly. Whether they achieve the former is extremely debatable (though it would be heading towards a win for the Bose naysayers, until Bose started litigious proceedings...)
Three-fish, have you tried it?
Of course I've tried it. Do you think that I always have my monitors in their ideal position relative to my ears? Coming from perhaps the opposite position, I've worked with attenuation/diffusion in a recording studio to deal with reflections the engineer experiences.
As far as ideal speaker placement goes, I can hear the change in some high frequencies (like a snare drum and cymbal sounds, for example) if I move my head less than an inch from level with the sweet spot. The stereo image needs the same or less movement to be lost. Given that the OP would essentially be listening to the speakers from another room, it seems somewhat irrelevant to argue the toss over a sweet spots, stereo images and tonal quality. Even if I am right. :]
Anyone know anything about mounting (in wall) speakers behind pictures/mirrors?
Any issues or gotchas or does it simply not work
Interesting 3F - what speakers were those? Very HF that beamed from the tweeter? In any event I don't think the OP is looking for that level of perfection, as you say (tho it's hardly "another room")
richc I've not tried it but try placing a picture or mirror in front of your speakers, it's gonna be shite, even behind canvas.
Hmmm suspected so, I am renovating a house and was trying to work out speaker placement for bathrooms, so it sounds like ceiling mounted jobs are the best bet.
Anyone know the max recommended distance between a physical speaker and the driving device? As I was wondering about using the structured cat5/cat 6 wiring and putting the media device in the comms cupboard
what speakers were those?
Home monitors are Mordaunt Short MS510, studio monitors are Mackie HR824, currently observable from Bose Jewel Cubes (urgh).
Very HF that beamed from the tweeter?
It's percussive sounds; things in that sort of range.
but isn't this the kind of thing that those Bose speakers are designed for - those little dual cube things with a discreet sub hidden away somewhere to give them some oomph?
or not designed...
the sub on those things has to handle far too much of the music than it should as those little cubes aren't very capable at all - so the sub can't be hidden away somewhere as you can hear where it is.
Maybe ok for watching movies but pretty poor for music.
Maybe ok for watching movies but pretty poor for music.
The Cube and Sub system is really quite strange. There's a whole range of frequencies that is too high for the sub to convey and too low for the cubes, so music has a curious slice missing from it. It's easy enough to ignore if the music is just background, but I really want to use it as any kind of reference system (not that that's what it's intended for, I accept). As you say, movie/TV is what they're good(ish) at; not music.
I use in-ceilings from Monitor Audio in two rooms, one of which is a single stereo. I'm very happy with the sound produced, and if you're only looking for 'background' level sound rather than audiophile, it would be a cheaper quick option than on wall / in wall systems. IMHO.
richc
Anyone know the max recommended distance between a physical speaker and the driving device? As I was wondering about using the structured cat5/cat 6 wiring and putting the media device in the comms cupboard
I have speakers hard wired allover my flat - teh furthest ones probably are about 12 m or more of cable from the amp - decent speaker cable tho. Seems to be OK.
I wouldn't do it if you want the very best of sound but for background its fone
TJ, the shorter the better and to my knowledge there is no max other than thenfurther you go the more loss induced by the cable. I've run up to 70m with 2.5mm cable with perfectly decent results.
Stumpy01, the Stealth speakers are full range. The Amina's aren't. I've done quite big Cinema's with Stealth and they're great. They do an in wall sub as well.
If it was me, I'd go for Artcoustic and try to get the wife to agree. Less painfully installation and good sound. OK a fat pair of speakers is better but not an option in this setup.
Artcoustic, I was trying to remember the brand when I mentioned on walls!
You can even submit your own pictures / art work for the screen.
some of those cat 5 recipes have high capacitance I believe so maybe not so good for 'extreme' usage.
The Van Damme 2.5mm blue jacketed stuff is pretty good, and there are cheaper versions of the same 'OFC studio' cable.
With long cable runs the key is keeping the resistance down - very skinny cable in long lengths causes series resistance which changes the frequency response and transient accuracy through the upper bass and low midrange (it raises Qes if you care). The end result is excess boom.
I was thinking of sheilded cat6 as they will be following similar paths as the power cables.
Max distance would be about 25M I should imagine (as I the cables are going to have to take a funny route.
At the moment, I am just working out what needs to go where, and as the house currently doesn't have a roof this is all early days.
I was thinking of using in ceiling speakers in two bedrooms for background music, and routing the speakers back to a comms cupboard via cat6 and then connected to an Amp/Squeezebox