The 400km bit sounded eminently doable, but 3500m of climbing is a different mater.
That's less than 1% overall - it's not a hilly route.
Find out what you like to eat and drink.
On a ride of that length, the only sports products I use are electrolyte tablets for my bottles. Everything else is real food and drink. I find I get heartburn if I don't eat regularly so I make sure to have some snacks (fruit cake, banana, flapjack, jam sandwiches) with me on the bike. But we're all different.
Take a SIS caffeine espresso gel every three hours and a normal gel every hour or so with some normal food too (mini pork pies are rocket fuel).
That'd have me on the toilet every 15 miles!
Did a 60 miler on canal tow paths a couple of weeks ago just to see if I could go that far, it wasn’t nice. My arms were killing me!
Towpaths are dull though and surprisingly hard work. Flat so you have to keep pedalling, there's little opportunity or need to move around on the bike, bumpy enough that you're constantly getting vibrations and there's a lot of slowing for narrow sections / walkers etc then accelerating again so it's quite tiring.
Take a SIS caffeine espresso gel every three hours and a normal gel every hour or so with some normal food too (mini pork pies are rocket fuel).
Op thinks it will take around 18 hours give or take so that's about 24 gels.
That’d have me on the toilet every 15 miles!
And I think it would make me sick!
I think we are all different when it comes to food on a bike. What works for one doesn't work for another. I've done supported rides before and haven't fancied what I had in my bag that I thought id want the night before and had to force it down. Sometimes you need to make yourself eat. So I now take varied food and too much so I can change my mind.
The 400km bit sounded eminently doable, but 3500m of climbing is a different mater.
That’s less than 1% overall
No it's not. It's twice that. ( assuming the start and end points are about level)
it’s not a hilly route.
Well, I was wondering about this. The 2% average gradient is not much, but another way to look at it is half as hilly as the Fred.... 3500m in 388km instead of 3500m in 180km.
I'd still say that is pretty hilly.
( or at least it is compared to my only similar endurance ride which was probably less than 1000m in 500km)
Op thinks it will take around 18 hours give or take so that’s about 24 gels.
One gel an hour washed down with fluids, is my norm, coupled with one dose of more solid food (banana, malt loaf slices, fruit bar, semolina, sticky rice in freezer bags) plus some bloks or other sweets ad libitum. Distance is an exercise in eating and drinking, not riding. SIS gels are very easy on the stomach, and drinking some electrolyte with them is really not so different to energy drinks (except you know you've taken in the energy and drunk the fluids). I try and eat something every 30 min. Basically a continuous oral glucose infusion with the odd savoury added for variety.
And mini pork pies when you stop to rest. I struggle to chew solids when riding, and when racing, I don't stop (<6 min off the bike in a 12 hr TT, normally to go to the toilet after a couple of hours of fluid rebalancing!).
Yeah, I do need to think about fuel.
I tend to just use electrolyte for liquid, Zero tabs.
I'm not a great fan of gels, but can just about stomach a few, will probably carry a few just to take occasionally, eg when flagging or facing a big hill. Otherwise, will want to use a variety of 'normal' food. Pork pies, boiled eggs, banana, flapjack, chicken & ham wraps, home made rice cakes. Think we're planning a proper cafe stop at lunchtime at about half way.
Just ordered some new shoes, my current ones are too tight, wearable for a couple of hours, but longer than that and they hurt.
Any advice on gloves/bar tape? Is double-wrapping the bar worthwhile or can that make things more painful? And I don't tend to use padded gloves, but I do suffer from a bit of carpal tunnel syndrome following a broken finger accident earlier in the year. Will padded gloves make a positive difference?
Otherwise, will want to use a variety of ‘normal’ food. Pork pies, boiled eggs, banana, flapjack, chicken & ham wraps, home made rice cakes
Everyone's stomach is different but I wouldn't be taking the pork pies. For me the extra fat in them makes them hard to digest on the bike and I get lots of indigestion. The rest I'd be ok with though, probably. Not sure about flapjack, not tried it.
Any advice on gloves/bar tape? Is double-wrapping the bar worthwhile or can that make things more painful?
I'm a fan of gel strips under tape. Super comfy despite feeling a bit big at first.
Will padded gloves make a positive difference?
For me, any kind of gloves are useful even though they aren't in fashion at the moment. Some of mine are lightly padded, some are just double (fake) leather, but it's the protection from pulling and pushing on skin that seems to help. You seem to get much more of this on drop bars because the position on the hoods and drops involves sideways force on your palm skin. Lots of people don't use them though, but I suspect they've built up to it over many years rather than diving straight into a 400k.
So longest rides I've done have only been hilly 200km/3500m climbing (Fred Whitton, similar nos in the alps, etap de dales and a couple of other sportives0. Which I guess is only 2%! Wow. Feels like plenty is all I'll say.
Anyway, I know zilch compared to the posters above who've actually done double this, but have one thing to add on the ibuprofen it's not just for pain, I take it as a preventative measure before a big road ride to counter inflamation - dodgy shoulder on the downhills, lower back to a lesser extent etc etc to prevent or at least slow down the inevitable flaring up and reducing any lasting impact of the ride (remembering now why I've zero desire to do any more of that kind of stuff). And I start taking it the day before the ride. If you're going to do it, don't wait for pain.
(Only done this to get through actual events fwiw, and not for fun things like Jennride.)
Is double-wrapping the bar worthwhile or can that make things more painful?
It makes the bar considerably fatter - if you have small hands this is a very bad thing. It's something you kind of need to be used to, not something you do last minute for a one-off ride.
Will padded gloves make a positive difference?
Personal preference. I go for fairly minimal padding but you can buy gloves with padding in all sorts of places - palm of hand, outer edge, base of the fingers...
No it’s not. It’s twice that. ( assuming the start and end points are about level)
Eh? 3500m/400km is 0.875%
That's not hilly. I did a Bristol-London-Bristol 400km audax with about that much climbing, it was a flattish route with a couple of lumps.
Well, I was wondering about this. The 2% average gradient is not much, but another way to look at it is half as hilly as the Fred…. 3500m in 388km instead of 3500m in 180km.
I’d still say that is pretty hilly.
It doesn't work like that! The Fred will see you going into the red quite often, which will catch up with you later in the ride. In contrast, a flattish route allows you to spend much more of your time in zone 2, conserving your energy.
Yes - being 'in the red' which very much does not feel like it for the first few minutes early on in the ride will dramatically shorten your overall endurance.
Eh? 3500m/400km is 0.875%
That’s not hilly.
Pointless argument. It might be completely flat with a few huge climbs, or little undulations all the way, but your legs will still feel 3500m.
It might be completely flat with a few huge climbs, or little undulations all the way, but your legs will still feel 3500m.
I think the point being made is that 3500m isn't always the same impact on your legs.
If you are doing a few hugs passes at 3-4% then you can twiddle up those at zone 2 given the appropriate gears, which is going to be far easier than a 20% ripper out of some Welsh valley or Yorkshire dale 30 times.
, I don’t stop (<6 min off the bike in a 12 hr TT,
Out of all the numbers I've ever seen on stw, that is the most impressive. My mind is boggled 🙂
I was aiming for 2 hours off the bike in my 24hr, knowing that in reality I'd need more. I guess if I could change my diet to something more similar to yours..... but I 'need' to eat nice food.
Eh? 3500m/400km is 0.875%
WTAF. Unless he's planning on doing this ride in Bolivia or somewhere, hes going to have to descend almost every single one of those 3500m. Given that I think he said it's a there and back route, we can safely assume the gradients on the downhill will be the same as the uphill. So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%
No?
Re elevation, I think the route, as far as possible, follows the valley floors.
The biggy is, of course, Fleet Moss, at around 78km (and again, in reverse, at around 310km). Its not stupidly steep, but is pretty intense and sustained. What I know of the rest of the route (essentially the Leeds side of Fleet Moss) is that its not really flat, it's quite undulating, which over 400km is likely to become somewhat energy-sapping.
I'm planning to ride to Hawes and back sometime this or early next week, will be about 170km and will give me a bit of a sense of where I'm at ...
So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%
No?
No. I don't think so. At least, I hope not!
I understand it to be 3500m over the full 388km. So, the ride to Gretna will be 1750m climbing. Which is then repeated on the way back.
So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%No?
No, it's 3500m of climbing overall - 1750m out there, 1750m back (give or take). So 400km, 3500m climbing which is concentrated on Fleet Moss with a load of other "undulations".
I wish people wouldn't get hung up on climbing and averages and % gradients, it's all massively overthinking it. I ride lead on a multi day tour every year and without fail every year there's frantic panicking on the forum before the ride -
what's "the worst" hill?
what's the average gradient?
how long does it take to climb [hill]?
what gearing do it need?
I always feel like saying to them: FFS, it's a bike ride, there will be some ups, some downs and some flat bits. Deal with it.
But I don't - cos I'm dead proffeshunal. 😉
WTAF. Unless he’s planning on doing this ride in Bolivia or somewhere, hes going to have to descend almost every single one of those 3500m. Given that I think he said it’s a there and back route, we can safely assume the gradients on the downhill will be the same as the uphill. So essentially he will be climbing 3500m in ~194km. Which is nowhere near 0.875%
No disrespect, but I've read this several times and I still don't really understand your reasoning. He's travelling 400km during which time he will be climbing 3500m. What is the significance of it being a there & back route. Does not compute. Sorry.
I understand it to be 3500m over the full 388km. So, the ride to Gretna will be 1750m climbing. Which is then repeated on the way back.
🙄 it's not 3500m climbing over 388km. It's 3500m of climbing and 3500m of descending over 388km. Given that the route is reversed on the return, it's clear that there is exactly the same length of descent as there is of ascent, ie 194km. So 3.5/194.
Which is not 0.875
Pointless argument. It might be completely flat with a few huge climbs, or little undulations all the way, but your legs will still feel 3500m.
Again, it doesn't work like that. I've done a 160km ride with 3500m of climbing, and it was far harder than the same amount in 400km. I recently did a 600km ride with 7000m of climbing and my legs were less tired than when I did 5000m in 175km.
The challenge with the longer distances is more mental than physical IME.
it’s not 3500m climbing over 388km.
Komoot says it is.
So 3.5/194.
If that were true, the OP's Garmin would show 3500m at the halfway point. It won't.
.
When you calculate how much climbing vs distance you do over a ride, you don't just count the bits where you are actually going upwards. If I ride up a mountain and travel 10km up while climbing 1000m & then stop at the top and get the car home, then I will have ridden 10km and climbed 1000m = 10%.
If I climb the same mountain but then freewheel back to the bottom that will be a 20km ride = 5%
EDIT just seen your post. The hill itself doesn't change but the amount of climbing you do as a percentage of the ride as a whole halves. The error you are a making is to try and count the time spent climbing. Don't forget the OP's ride will have lots of flat bits (as will almost any ride) so who knows how many km he will be spending going up a hill. Elevation is about the ride as a whole.
Rubbish 🙂 The climbing is mixed in with the descending.
I know. And because it's a there and back, 1750m climbing will be in each half.
What would you say the ‘average’ gradient is now? Has the hill suddenly got 50% less steep as he is also cycling down it?
The total climbing is the same but in your second example, the average halves because it's twice as far. I don't know why you find this hard to understand.
If I climb the same mountain but then freewheel back to the bottom that will be a 20km ride = 5%
Precisely. In your example the 20km ride is barely more effort than the 10km ride.
Each to his own, I'm more interested in how steep the hills will be rather than how steep the ride will be.
And because it’s a there and back, 1750m climbing will be in each half.
Incorrect. IF that were the case, it would be because start and end point were at the same height, nothing to do with the there and back.
Incorrect.
It really isn't.
IF that were the case, it would be because start and end point were at the same height, nothing to do with the there and back
Good grief. It's a return route with 3500m total climbing over the whole route. Therefore 1750m in each half (assuming similar altitude for the start and halfway points). This isn't difficult to understand.
Each to his own, I’m more interested in how steep the hills will be rather than how steep the ride will be.
Which is a different question.
Good grief. It’s a return route with 3500m total climbing over the whole route. Therefore 1750m in each half. This isn’t difficult to understand.
Incorrect. Leeds is 63m asl, and Gretna is 40. He does less climbing on the way there, and more on the return.
Incorrect. Leeds is 63m asl, and Gretna is 40. He does less climbing on the way there, and more on the return.
Which is why I edited my post for clarity, because of that crucial 23m difference.
Irrelevant of where the climbs are, I reckon he'll bail at Gretna.
Irrelevant of where the climbs are, I reckon he’ll bail at Gretna
Why? What do you know about me that would lead you to speculate that?
What do you know about me that would lead you to speculate that?
🙂
Well, this thread has become really interesting. Well done everyone, I'm really looking forward to all your contributions!
Why? What do you know about me that would lead you to speculate that?
You'll do it. Just take it steady, eat and drink plenty, and stay in a group. If you get the dozies in the night a 15 minute nap can work wonders. It sure beats cycling into a hedge.
Irrelevant of where the climbs are, I reckon he’ll bail at Gretna.
he doesn't want to do that because then he'd be forever...
intheborders
Free Member
That and it's downhill going back. Just look at a map.
Fleet Moss is long getting to 590m, and is, er, alpine as dales hills go though it does kick near the top, worse on the Hawes side (it's also the fastest descent in the dales - utterly terrifying when there are lambs about. Even I get into high 40s mph).
I'd not be bothering with the Asquith road on the way back if it was me, and I'd be strongly resenting the Chevin.
Above all I'd be praying for decent south easterly wind on the way out that swings to a north westerly the return. The reverse would be character building.
Above all I’d be praying for decent south easterly wind on the way out that swings to a north westerly the return. The reverse would be character building.
That would be ideal.
Not sure what our contingency plans are if we have a heatwave. Or storms/gales/heavy rain all day! 😬
Regarding bar wrapping and gloves, I don't like thick gloves nor double wrapped tape. Key here is not to put too much weight through your arms in the first place. If you are on the hoods and have no bend in your elbows, then your bars are too far away. Nearer and often higher, with more weight through the saddle not the arms is better. For my 12h TTs I have aerobars, with weight through the arms not wrists. It's pretty comfortable but you won't be doing that in a month's time. More hand positions is what matters, including riding on the drops (it will be windy one way at least), so raise them a little so you CAN ride on the drops for reasonable periods of time.
For pacing, try and avoid going into the red as much as possible. I set a heart rate of 140 and do all I can not to go over that. It takes quite a bit of spinning up the hills (and there are few on a TT course), but it can be quite fun to not push on at the start of a race, thinking it's just a four-hour warm up 😀
I think you'll be fine btw, Just eat before you are hungry and drink before you are thirsty. It is a vastly better option than the alternative.
Take a lot of amphetamines (speed) and consume throughout the ride. Deal with the consequences and come down after the event.
Above all I’d be praying for decent south easterly wind on the way out that swings to a north westerly the return. The reverse would be character building.
Weird winds at the moment.
It was the Rapha Manchester to London ride on Sunday, they had a lovely NW wind the whole way. Full on tailwind. Not strong but enough to help significantly.
I can imagine though if you were riding NW from Leeds straight into it, it would be unpleasant enough to be cursing it the whole way.
The problem with organised rides on a set date is the weather
It could be 29c all day or 14c and constantly raining. Neither of which are helpful wjen you are set for 20hrs connected to a road bike.
Not sure if the intheborders chap was going for reverse psychology, but I reckon the OP is going to nail this. Good luck with the prep and I look forward to hearing how it went!
Treat it as 2 day long rides. 120miles rach way.
10hrs riding, 2hrs for stationery stretching and eating.
Then nice night in a hotel with hot water and clean sheets.
Wash kit out, dinner, stretch, sleep
Rinse and repeat on way home.
Your problem would be riding slow enough
Not sure if the intheborders chap was going for reverse psychology, but I reckon the OP is going to nail this.
No, I was responding to someone who normally only rides 2-3 hours on an MTB who's signed up for a near-enough 24 hour road ride within the month.
I sometimes ride gravel with roadies who do Audax's, they're a different breed. I've no problem keeping up with them on an all-dayer, but then I ride a lot of 6-8 hour rides, but beyond then takes years to achieve. One of them on Sat/Sun did 380 miles...
TBH I'm a bit of an outlier in the main MTB group I ride with, as they're mostly 3-4 hour maximum folk - and when we've done the odd longer ride, they've struggled big time, and required lots of stops.
Only an observation.
If you think about it in terms of power- the best way to finish strong is to be doing the same power in the last hour that you did in the first. Do a long training ride (the sooner the better so you have time to recover) and remember how it feels at the end, how fast you’re going and how much you can push up a hill. Then ride like that from the start!
This is easier said than done, even with a power meter 🤣
In an 18 hour ride- it’s almost impossible to go too slow at the start. After all, even if you spent 2 hours riding ‘too easily’ you could then (in theory) just ride the last two hours harder.
Be efficient too- coast as much as possible, stay low and aero wherever possible and wear tight fitting clothing. Every tiny advantage you can get will become massive over the course of the day.
And learn how to bargain with yourself and tell yourself lies 🤣 (Like the rat experiment when they swim for hours before drowning if you give them hope after a few minutes)
I did a locally, hilly 2.5 hour loop (1000m climbing in 45km) last night, deliberately keeping the pace low and just twiddling up the climbs. Felt very 'artificial' in terms of pace ... but then I guess that's what I need to do?!
Got a couple of long rides planned in now.
Will be doing 3 hours MTB in Hebden Bridge Thursday evening, and then will do a 4-5 hour road ride Friday. Then will do Leeds-Hawes and back next Tuesday, which will be just under half the distance but will have done Fleet Moss in both directions. Think that will give me an idea of where I'm at.
