[Closed] Heavier casing vs tyre inserts

I've taken the inserts out of all my bikes now- will probably still use them for racing though for the security. They're not a bad idea and can work pretty well but for me, I'd rather put the weight into tyres.

The main clincher for me was getting a flat at the mega- at first I thought, thank god for the insert, riding out the last section on a flat would have sucked otherwise and instead it probably only cost me a few places, and was kinda fun and glorious. But, I'm 100% sure that the flat would have sealed without the insert- the only reason it went completely flat, was that the insert stopped sealant getting to the hole (when I got home I just took the insert out and reinflated and it sealed instantly) So I reckon I'd have probably not even known I'd got a hole.

But obviously you can't always get the carcass you want- I've got a bag of tyres that suit me but actually one of them's discontinued and the new "replacement" doesn't look half as good so maybe I'll be less smug once that dies. And I'm light at 10 stone so I can run less pressures than most folks. I'm sure different people are differently bothered by tyre squirm too, and some terrain is harder on tyres. So it's not simple.

What sort of punctures are you getting? If they are pinch flats then there maybe some merit. If they are your standard thorn nail type hole then I dont think either will make any difference. Personally I would try adding a bit more sealant as Im always reluctant to add extra weight to my bike without good reason.

I have the same tyre as you, with a Rimpact insert. It's held up well so far.

I also have some heavier casing tyres, but I put inserts in them too - because they get a tougher time.

Then I have some XC/trail wheels with lighter tyres and no inserts. Horses for courses innit. But having run some heavier casing rear tyres without inserts, I found they still get holed on rocks.

I've only tried Rimpact inserts, but I'm unlikely to change because they are affordable, work quite well, feel good when riding and are relatively easy to fit.

I use inserts mostly as stupidity insurance, choose your tyres based on what they need to do, and use the inserts for when you exceed that by mistake, rather than trying to routinely get away with a lighter tyre than you need and relying on the inserts to give protection your tyres should.

What sort of punctures are you getting? If they are pinch flats then there maybe some merit. If they are your standard thorn nail type hole then I dont think either will make any difference.

They’ve all been in-line with the rim bead so I think they must be pinch flats - I guess what I’m trying to figure out is how to avoid that without running higher pressures. To be honest I’d quite like to experiment with even lower pressures. This makes me feel like inserts might be a good idea.

I use inserts mostly as stupidity insurance, choose your tyres based on what they need to do, and use the inserts for when you exceed that by mistake, rather than trying to routinely get away with a lighter tyre than you need and relying on the inserts to give protection your tyres should.

This also makes a lot of sense to me and makes me think that a heavier casing might be the way to go!

Depending on your weight, 21psi is pretty low in the rear isn't it? I have to run 30psi in a standard Exo to not pinch flat that often, at 75kg ish!

I've been useing a Rimpact in the rear for over a year now and it offers pretty good protection from pinches with an Exo tyre.

I fitted Cushcore Pro at both ends recently.

Tires
Front Assegai 29 x 2.5 MaxxGrip EXO+
Rear DHR2 29 x 2.4 MaxxTerra EXO+

The grip and support downhill is sublime.
The extra weight and drag from lower pressures have made the bike almost unrideable on the road and the trails.

I now need to add more pressure to get the wheels to roll faster on the trails, defeating the insert's purpose.

I think I'll be taking them out for everything but uplift days. I don't want to offset the weight of the insert by buying lighter carbon rims.

I do have a Front Assegai 29 x 2.5 MaxxGrip DD on another bike without Cushcore. I think it feels very similar to the EXO+ with Cushcore.

Depending on your weight, 21psi is pretty low in the rear isn’t it? I have to run 30psi in a standard Exo to not pinch flat that often, at 75kg ish!

I’m 80kg so this could be part of the problem, they just grip so well though! That said my regular riding doesn’t see a lot of sharp rocks (Deepcut, Swinley, Surrey Hills) so that probably helps.

I think an insert with my current tyre might be the thing to try first, has anyone got anything to say about the Tannus Armour Tubeless insert? It seems like a good combination of lightweight, supportive and easy to install based on the few reviews I’ve been able to find.

For those locations, Exo+ and a light insert should be perfect.

The only punctures inserts will help with are pinch flats, which generally happen next to the bead. They'll do next to nothing for regular punctures or sidewall slashes.

I'm currently in the process of going all the way to DH casings and ditching the inserts. In my particular experience, I've been going up in casing strength and inserts over the last few years, but keep struggling with casing strength.

Check that tyre pressure tho, 21psi sounds awfully low.

The only punctures inserts will help with are pinch flats, which generally happen next to the bead. They’ll do next to nothing for regular punctures or sidewall slashes.

Pinch flats were the main punctures I was getting, TBH.

Still get the odd hole in the top of the tyre, but if that doesn't seal it's generally anchovy-able.

Pinch flats next to the bead can be very awkward, if not terminal.

Check that tyre pressure tho, 21psi sounds awfully low.

Thanks, I’ll experiment with higher pressures. Maybe that’ll be all I need after all.

Only use one in the rear. I'm 80kgs and run my tires at around 25ish psi. I lack the skill/finesse to be able unweight the rear wheel if I'm getting continuous hits so it gives the rear some protection. Also add an extra 33mls of sealant compared to the front

Northwind +1

I quite liked the feel of an insert, especially on the rear wheel, but have had the same issue with holes not sealing. This was made worse by the fact that an anchovy wouldn't go in, and putting in a tube meant removing the insert... I ended up riding down on the insert which was okay, but I decided that I'd rather have heavier duty tyres and the ability to throw in a tube if and when required. I'm fairly light though (62kg) so pinching is rarely an issue.

Everything is a sacrifice, i run double down shorty's just now, running 20psi f&r, which is due to the stuff i ride through winter being more tyres on ground stuff, lots of roots, leaves, loose stuff and the lower pressures help out a little.

Not had an issue running the DD casing, they are heavy and a struggle on road/paths, same with the schwalbe supergravity i use on the other bike, but the reason for using them is i broke two tyres this year due to gravity stuff, heavy landings and overshooting landings, it's the additional sidewall protection i like, when doing this stuff my PSI is up around 28psi though, not 20!

Short answer though, what do you do, and what offers the best potential protection, i tend to go to better tyres than inserts, do you change over often, can you run two sets of wheels, etc, etc?

Don't get the high pressures. I run 17 in the back 15 in the front for local trails. An extra 2 psi when I'm in the alps or bike parking. I get pinch flats maybe 2 times a year which just get plugged. 75kg Standard casing and no inserts. I do use a TPMS system though to ensure my pressures are always where they should be and to warn me of any loss. Cant help wondering whether some of these punctures are caused by having less pressure than you think you have...I have to top them a bit before most rides

I’m similar exo front at 19 psi exo+ rear at 21 in the back both 2.35. I’m  75kg and Ride Peaks and the alps will very few punctures and none that an anchovy couldn’t fix

No way could I get away with 21 psi in the rear .I'm only 64kg but have dented rear rims with a sg Mary o. The rear with 25psi in .
The rimpact don't do it for me just not enough resistance but the Vittoria airliner has been a game changer I got to the btm of blue pig without realising I'd completely flattened.
25psi minimum for me outback

A couple of years ago on here there was a thread about bodging inserts on the cheap with some closed cell foam piping cut to length to suit the diameter of the wheel, as there was some agreement that shop bought inserts appear to be a very similar concept. The materials were a couple of pounds per set, but could only be bought in bulk from some trade foam places.

Any long term users care to give feedback?

There are now a few people on eBay selling the appropriate length of closed cell foam with a couple of cable ties for around £5-10 Inc p&p.

If the budget route does work well, then I can't decide if the eBay sellers are chancers, or if the big boys of foam inserts charging £50+ are the bigger chancers

Don’t get the high pressures. I run 17 in the back 15 in the front for local trails.

That sort of pressure would last me one half decent corner before I blew the tyre off the rim, even with a thick casing.

As for the original question, no never bothered using them - I run heavy casings on both my bikes and sensible pressures. I can’t see the point of using an EXO casing with an insert which weighs the same as a DD casing tyre with a sidewall that’s thicker than tracing paper.

I am 87kg and use DD front shorty mg and a DD rear DHR2 mt. Inserts in both. 20F/22R psi with carbon 29mm ID wheels. Drop 18F/20R for steep winter off-piste and just keep it smooth. If racing will go to 22F/25R.

This is the problem about exchanging opinions over the internet without actually knowing each others riding styles and skills. "My riding" could be wildly different from "your riding" and that's why we end up with such different experiences regarding tyre pressures.

This is the problem about exchanging opinions over the internet without actually knowing each others riding styles and skills. “My riding” could be wildly different from “your riding” and that’s why we end up with such different experiences regarding tyre pressures.

Yep, good point though I have to say I’m happy to see a few more opinions. I’ve gone from thinking my tyre pressure is fine to wondering if I’m too low to feeling like maybe it’s fine again. I’m very appreciative of more people’s points of view and what it’s taught me is that I need to figure it out for myself and then trust my own judgement!

I think what I’ll do is get a single insert for the back and then experiment with different pressures with and without the insert. If I decide not to run the insert full time then at least I can keep it for park days and the like.

I’m just over 80kgs riding a fairly slack 140f / 130r trail full suss. 30mm internal rims.

I’m purely on exo / snakeskin / grid type tyre carcasses - I’ve only ever run a bit heavier for a trip to Antur (used a Wtb tough casing on the rear).

Tyre pressures vary for me on what I’m riding. At the moment it’s mostly local low speed steep tech stuff in slop so the front hillbilly (2.6” grid) is just under 20psi and the rear is a couple of psi higher (2.4” exo Dhr2).

If riding the same tyres at a bit more speed at a trail centre like Cwmcarn I’d be 21 or 22 ish front and near 25 rear.

In the summer I run a 2.5 dhf front and aggressor rear (but might try a dissector rear) and probably run around 25 psi at both ends where speeds are higher and I’m more likely to be smashing round Cwmcarn at speed or BPW / BMCC uplift days etc.

So far I’ve never punctured a tubeless tyre - either thorns / glass or pinch puncture. Maybe I don’t push tyres hard enough in the corners to burp them or do big enough drops / jumps / hit rock gardens hard enough to pinch puncture?

When my hardtail frame is back from spraying I’m trying a 2.6” Forekaster in exo casing on the rear - chucked in a Rimpact as I’m aware it’s quite light for a wide tyre - will be interesting to see if it’s a step too far and I start getting punctures or not.

To add some extra data, I weight 90kg geared, currently running Wild Enduros with Rimpact inserts. My regular every day pressures are 23/24F 27/28R. If things are really sloppy I'll reduce 2 or 3 PSI.

I find these pressures to be the bare minimum to keep some directional stability and precision, not to mention the tyres seated. Even at 27psi in the rear I can burp it occasionally if I'm really pushing it on berms or case a jump

Where do you guys ride to need dd spec tyres? Dd is designed for ews style speeds and abuse

Where do you guys ride to need dd spec tyres? Dd is designed for ews style speeds and abuse

Hit a berm 'hard' on a trail centre blue with 10psi in an EXO casing and say that again.

Where do you guys ride to need dd spec tyres? Dd is designed for ews style speeds and abuse

Places with rocks. And DD tyres still hole a little too easily IME. Schwalbe Super Gravity are tougher.

Where do you guys ride to need dd spec tyres? Dd is designed for ews style speeds and abuse

Most EWS racers are fully in for full DH casing tyres, front and rear.

I run them as firstly, I don’t like fixing punctures in the pissing rain & covered in mud, I like the support the tyre gives & as a racer I generally run what I race, so I know what to expect.

@chismac allow me to disagree, but DD is not for full full on EWS riding. They're a great option for more "casual" enduro style riding and racing, or even for a serious lighter rider. But look at the starting line of every proper enduro race and virtually everyone is on DH casings

75 kgs plus kit here.
Can get away with minion/aggressor standard EXO on 30mm EX1501 rims
18 front
19 back for all Surrey Hills riding

always run DD tyres for Alps etc but still run the same pressure

maybe 1 burp in 10 years and 8 punctures.

The DD tyres are much better damped but a pig for local riding as just so draggy.

I’ve had inserts in with thinner walled casings and no issues with pinch flats at all, I put them in because I started worrying about damaging carbon rims. It’s been fine - until I had to remove a tyre. Last one I cut the bead to get it off 😳

This article comparing cushcore and lighter casings with heavier tyres gives some good insight.

https://nsmb.com/articles/cushcore-preferable-heavier-tire-casing/

Seems they went to a lot of trouble with this test so it’s a worthwhile read IMO.
Good to know that Supergravity type casings seem to have won the toss for feel on rough but not super rough terrain. Better damping with a stronger casing.
Didn’t see that mentioned here.
I run cushcore pro front only in a Snakeskin Mary 29 and the extra grip is lovely. But on the rear an SG or DD casing is worth it I think.
Just for general riding in the UK woods. Rooty. Slippy.
Those bloody Cushcores are a right pain to fit though.

This really low pressure for grip logic, im not fully convinced, the grip a tyre has is down to "friction coefficient" and load down through the contact patch, if you tyre is that soft and deforming that much you can no longer load through the contact patch, you're losing grip, right? Its got to be a balance.

Also think, "when do I need grip", most peoples priority will probably be turning, followed by braking, followed by driving in order of priority, so your priority for grip will be turning which will be deforming the tyre and your load shifting away from the contact patch, go too soft, you can no longer load through the contact patch. Tyre deformation means tyre contact with the surface, equivalent to suspension tracking to me.

So it's like suspension, a balance between soft enough to track but firm enough to load up the tyre for grip.

So in a long winded way, its a balance between support for loading the contact patch and there being a good contact patch. I call BS on it being as simple as softer tyres = more grip, there's going to be an optimum window that strikes the right balance.

Then there's the whole debate over grip versus damping, read a few times when pros test tyres, its not necessarily the most sticky that wins, its often the most damped that wins, so maybe with the lower pressures you're looking for more damping rather than more grip.

I'm not particularly a low pressure enthuisiast, but I tend to mainly notice the benefits when I'm riding something steep and technical in the wet.

Often I'll remember I've got my tyres quite high, let a bit of air out and suddenly it all gets easier.

But that riding tends to be slower, when a lack of support may not be a big issue.

There is a huge amount of variables.
I am particularly heavy on rear wheels (80kg body weight), i've dinged every rim i've ever had usually pretty quickly. I got some Nukeproof ARD inserts and ran them in the rear of my hardtail. Quite frankly, it went from a bike i didn't enjoy riding to a bike i relished to ride. I was running a Nobby Nic 29x2.35 snakeskin on the rear on a Hope Enduro wheel and a Mary up front. Without the insert I was having to run around 34 PSI not to destory the rim. (I ride in the northern peaks so it is pretty rocky). I found I could run about 26 PSI in the rear with the insert and have not punctured to date even on a trip or two to the Lakes. In hind sight I think the ARDs suit those narrower profile rims (Hope Enduro is 25mm i think).
I recently finally got hold of my new FS which I'm running the Hunt Trail Wide wheels (wanted Enduro but the wait was too long) which are 30mm. I went for a Nic again on the back and Mary up front both Snakeskin, both with ARD inserts. I ran the rear at 28 PSI (more than I wanted) as I wanted to see how I went with my track record with damaging rims - 3rd ride, double ding in the rear even with the insert.
I've just put a Big Betty on in Super Gravity and it is very noticeable with the rolling characteristics feeling like glue. However, 26 PSI with the insert in feel like rock when I push into it with my thumbs. It's definitely far far sturdier. I haven't had chance to properly try it in anger yet due to the snow.
I think i probably got the double ding in the rim with the rim being a wider profile. The insert is still wider and meant to be fine with a 30mm profile but obviously wasn't.
Interesting to hear the comments on punctures and sealing. Our riding group have definitly experienced that.
In summary, the jury is still out for me on a FS but on a HT they are transformational.

A couple of years ago on here there was a thread about bodging inserts on the cheap with some closed cell foam piping cut to length to suit the diameter of the wheel, as there was some agreement that shop bought inserts appear to be a very similar concept. The materials were a couple of pounds per set, but could only be bought in bulk from some trade foam places.

Any long term users care to give feedback?

There are now a few people on eBay selling the appropriate length of closed cell foam with a couple of cable ties for around £5-10 Inc p&p.

If the budget route does work well, then I can’t decide if the eBay sellers are chancers, or if the big boys of foam inserts charging £50+ are the bigger chancers

I do this only because I'm a cheapskate

I don't run the whole thing, I cut it down the length so mine is a semicircle. Sits nicely in the rim. Have been running the same one for nearly two years. Two months ago I replaced the rear tyre and it shows signs of impacts in some places so It's doing what I'd hoped it would.

I think NSMB did a recent article on it where they tried all the different combos of sidewalls vs inserts and how they felt/performed

Might be worth a look

deanfbm
Free Member

This really low pressure for grip logic, im not fully convinced, the grip a tyre has is down to “friction coefficient” and load down through the contact patch, if you tyre is that soft and deforming that much you can no longer load through the contact patch, you’re losing grip, right?

A bunch of it is deformation too. Like, if your tyre is hard and you ride over a root, your contact patch is small, and all in contact with a root. Tons of pressure on that patch but, it won't help. Whereas if it's soft, the contact patch will probably be several times larger, and as well as the... I don't have the right words for this, but usually you've got the friction grip of tyre against ground, but there's also a sort of mechanical grip you get when something conforms around something else. Like the difference between a flat roller and a cog almost.

But it can also maybe be big enough to not all be on the slidy root. Maybe that last bit's the most important?

I’m running a Minion DHR II Exo+ at 21psi as my rear tyre

I’m 80kg so this could be part of the problem, they just grip so well though! That said my regular riding doesn’t see a lot of sharp rocks (Deepcut, Swinley, Surrey Hills) so that probably helps.

Stan's recommendations works for me as a starting point - Weight in lbs / 7 +2psi rear, -1psi front. Which puts me (c85kg kitted) at 25/28 and is good for big rocky riding on 2.4 tyres.

Wider tyres (2.6) you can drop a few psi and the same for smoother trails but its not long before the tyres are squirming.

21Psi rear would pinch the first time I hit a root badly (I was running 20/25 on the hardtail at the weekend and hit something hard edged and pinched the rear - admittedly it was almost dark so there was no line finesse at all).

Really worth checking your pressure gauge though - track pump gauges are useless at MTB pressures and I've tried a few digital guages which were equally useless. Now have a low pressure gauge on my track pump which is actually accurate.

A couple of years ago on here there was a thread about bodging inserts on the cheap with some closed cell foam piping cut to length to suit the diameter of the wheel, as there was some agreement that shop bought inserts appear to be a very similar concept. The materials were a couple of pounds per set, but could only be bought in bulk from some trade foam places.

Any long term users care to give feedback?

November 2017.

I played around with backer rod. It worked, but wasn't very durable.

It was an acceptable alternative when there wasn't much choice on the market. These days, theres plenty of choice. I now use Rimpact.